Vindicator Feedback Thread

[Kidel.2057]

On 10/30/2021 at 4:08 PM, Thon.3780 said:

After I read many topic and comments . It seem 

vindicator should rename to be saint bunny.  Coz all trait and match the mass healing build. 
so Archemorus is just fulfillment skill while Victor is core.

 

In order to balance .
1I still recommend permanent split utility skill 

2. each bar has its own cd

3 use F5 ( or F2 ) to swap freely without services charge.

4. do whatever you want with F2 F3 F4

 

then you can solve problem . Who want play damage dealer, here you go

who want to play support, heal . Then do it

Yeah, loadout management should not require energy. Or at least should not share energy consumption with the endurance gain effect. 

That's why I don't really get people who say that F2 is better on Alliance compared to Shiro/Jalis/Mallyx. I find it to be far better on core legends (just not enough to replace Herald/Renegade/Core F2, but far easier to use and far less punishing compared to the F2 on Alliance). 

I often found myself in need for endurance. So I press F2 to gain it and now I have a completely useless skillset with Urn and support stuff. 
The opposite is also true. I may need to just manage my loadout and now I've consumed energy and can't use the skill I needed (if 2 clicks weren't punishing enough). Plus I got endurance and maybe my bar was already full. 

F2 should be an effect based on the current legend (can be a SIMPLER loadout management for Alliance, like a reset or a lock). F3 should be energy->endurance conversion. The 2 effects make no sense together.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Skyroar.2974]

Did people actually found greatsword to be fun? If so, what about it was enjoyable, besides skill #5?

It was so generic and uninspired, I felt like I was playing with a weapon with filler copy-pasted skills. I couldn't shake up the feeling that I've played something very similar to that before.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Skyroar.2974

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Skyroar.2974 said:

Did people actually found greatsword to be fun? If so, what about it was enjoyable, besides skill #5?

It was so generic and uninspired, I felt like I was playing with a weapon with filler copy-pasted skills. I couldn't shake up the feeling that I've played something very similar to that before.

   Is not really LIKE  was something seen before, because is JUST a wespon which we have been playing for 9 years:

#2 is Ranger's Maul, same animation, similar effect, just different visuals and shape of the AoE.

#3 is Warrior's Rush, but with cast time and a third of the range.

#4 is Ranger's Couterattack, but instead of a nice extra chance of cc we have a strike which hits for less than our auto attack.

#5 is Reaper's Gravedigger, but lasting like the Ele's Meteor Shower.

 

   Is fun? Yep. I had some due the jump mechanic is new and the loud sound effects are nice and find joy cleansing Drizzlewood while trying to refine a build for PvP/roaming. Once you ditch the Alliance and ignore F2 what remains is a good bruiser which can have potential and, albeit unexpected (everyone was waiting a peak strike dps), is what I wanted the most.

   The bad part (for me) is that I would like instead a usable new legend -prefereable not human or charr- and given the choice of a human one Balthazar would have been way better. choice. I think also that the gs is a miss and I would like instead attacks based on Bathy's patterns (even with a shorter range), but so far I think that this is my second fav spec outside Bladesworn. The new specs aren't as good as most of the PoF ones /FB, Scourge, Spellbreaker...), but hey, we had Kalla and their bunch of hippies in PoF so overall this is a step ahead....

[Skyroar.2974]

11 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

The new specs aren't as good as most of the PoF ones /FB, Scourge, Spellbreaker...), but hey, we had Kalla and their bunch of hippies in PoF so overall this is a step ahead....

Ah, yes, Renegade was a low-budget spec in an expansion where a lot of them had high quality. It's nice to see how the situation is somewhat reversed for EoD.

But the Vindicator's greatsword, much like most new specs, stills feels bland and undercooked. It doesn't seem to have any unique mechanic, nor many interesting effects, nor much depth. Look at how unique Bladesworn's 2 pistol skills are: nice creative use of the ammo/charge mechanic. While Rev's greatsword is mostly devoid of it, and it feels as flat and boring as hammer after Anet removed the range mini-game from hammer #2. Greatsword feels like Anet just copy-pasted its skills from other greatsword weapons in the game, and called it a day. At least skill #5 is still somewhat unique. Feels like a melee, power damage version of Renegade's F3 bombardment. Outside of that? Every single other ability is so generic and flat.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Skyroar.2974

[Angesombre.4630]

I admit that the animations for the moment for me take second place as long as the gameplay is good, which is not the case for me currently.

And I admit that the 2 of the hammer has already been destroyed as said in the previous message.

[Thon.3780]

On 11/10/2021 at 5:05 AM, Buran.3796 said:

Mist Unleashed hits (a bit) hader than our hammer or sword skills in a shorter cooldown, and has a faster cast rate than anything from hammer while keeping the same number of targets and AoE (but lacking range, which makes sense as was designed as a strike mele weapon).  As with 100 blades, the main handicap is that you need to set the attack with a cc (and better if you have quickness) because is relatively easy to evade or flank.

the reason I told 100 blade . It is an example of  high damage weapon skill. If we look at mist unleash it has low damage come with fast cd. But it might not work for pvp WvW. Why?

we play Humans vs human . Who will stay still and take 2 hit from me?  We should have high damage skill to give big hit like  daredevil.   
 

mist unleashed is suit for pve. If you play pvp , cd will be 7 sec and same damage …. It is very bad.

come to other G.sw skill in other profession. It still have 10xx damage with 8 sec. while mist unleashed give 5xx and 7 sec cd.  Very sad.

 

[Buran.3796]

5 hours ago, Thon.3780 said:

the reason I told 100 blade . It is an example of  high damage weapon skill. If we look at mist unleash it has low damage come with fast cd. But it might not work for pvp WvW. Why?

we play Humans vs human . Who will stay still and take 2 hit from me?  We should have high damage skill to give big hit like  daredevil.   
 

mist unleashed is suit for pve. If you play pvp , cd will be 7 sec and same damage …. It is very bad.

come to other G.sw skill in other profession. It still have 10xx damage with 8 sec. while mist unleashed give 5xx and 7 sec cd.  Very sad.

 

   Mist Unleashed is pretty much Ranger's greatsword "Maul": same animation and similar AoE, same amount of vulnerability stacks fior the same lapse and the same 0.75 seconds cast time. If all, with the same gear the damage is slighly larger in the Vindicator skill, albeit that doesn't count the damage over time that the 6 seconds (instead of 7) and the pet ads over the Vindicator.

   Whirlwind Wrath and 100 Blades do more damage, but over several impacts (and 100 Blades roots you); Mesmer's greatsword has lower damage coeficients (which makes sense because isn't a mele weapon) and Reaper's Gravedigger and Death Spiral have larger damage but with larger cooldowns (8 and 10 s) and larger cast times (1.25 and 1 s).

   I don't think the numbers are that off: Vindicator's AA chain does less damage than Reapers (both apply chill in the third strike, but we also apply vulnerability), but our chain has a 0.5, 0,5 and 0.5 s cast time while Reaper's is 0.75, 0.75 and 1 s. So we attack at the speed of Warrior's greatsword but instead of doubling the vulnerability we mix vuln + chill, which is a stronger mix up. Guardian has the same cast times but only offers a pity stack of might with the third strike (albeit the F1 proc each 5 or 3 hits is strong).

   Overall, is Vindicator's greatsword damage a problem? I don't known: Guardian's strongest dps builds are hybrid ones based on burn damage, and don't use the greatsword at all. Warrior dps builds do use greastword, but the largest burst isn't 100 Blades but axe #5.

   As I said, I don't think that the Vindicator has a chance to surpass Rev's condition builds (Renegade and Herald), so if condi Renegade is A tier and power Herald is C tier having a power Vindicator in B tier won't change party instanced content at all. What I would like instead of a buff in greatsword numbers would be replacing Eternity's  Requiem with a hard cc like a short knockback or pull. Something like Call to Anguish.

   A hybrid design of the damage of the gs would also help (as with the trident and the short bow) but I guess that fall apart when ditched the potential use of Balthazar (a telekinetic wielded mele range sword with a bit of burns would have worked wonders), but sadly is so late for that...

Edited November 14, 2021 by Buran.3796

[Thon.3780]

Just my opinion, 

i guess that’s the reason ANET give chill to vindicator for soft control  ( weapon skill 1 and 3)  instead of put hard cc in weapon skill. 

[Angesombre.4630]

I think the Vindicator should be at least equivalent to the Renegat knowing that it will be a cac. I don't agree with the fact that the Guardian has a greastword and is more useful in burning because in this case it is the specialization weapon. I don't mean that it has to be used, but it has to be at least good. It would be a pity if it was less useful than the double sword.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Angesombre.4630

[Howluffu.7259]

kitten just make greatsword baseline in core rev then I can use it on whichever e-spec I want and not get stuck with a boring/lacklusting e-spec for the sake of having my fav weapon in my fav class

[Zenith.7301]

2 hours ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

kitten just make greatsword baseline in core rev then I can use it on whichever e-spec I want and not get stuck with a boring/lacklusting e-spec for the sake of having my fav weapon in my fav class

 

 

This can be applied to many classes. I'd say limiting weapons to certain specs feels really outdated and awful.

[Angesombre.4630]

Let's say you could use the weapon after unlocking the specialization for all archetypes. Only the new mechanics with the skills would remain in the elite specializations, that could bring a little change. But this is just an idea.

[LivingLegend.6528]

I don't know if they will change the switch mechanics but i hope they do. Given how they already base this switching off the vindicator. Its like the switching of skills is a mistake and the flipping  button that swope the skills is used to cover that bad mechanics.

 

Seems like revenant is not in a good place but this happen all the way back when it first came out and it took so long to make espec like renegade good. Well at this point i know that does not mean i meed to play the new spec and i cpuld stay with the old one but i don't want to be getting new expansion and still play with old spec. Changing to another profession was on my mind but i still wamt to hope they would change it.

[Skyroar.2974]

On 11/18/2021 at 4:01 AM, Angesombre.4630 said:

Let's say you could use the weapon after unlocking the specialization for all archetypes. Only the new mechanics with the skills would remain in the elite specializations, that could bring a little change. But this is just an idea.

Yes, I've suggested this idea before as well. It would be pretty good for the future of this game, IMO. But current Anet seems to have 0 ambition, or at least 0 means, to iterate on core combat mechanics of their game.

[Thon.3780]

I try to understand designer to make flip mechanic more versatile.

but… the blind spot also too much as well.

Although we set button and wait for flip. It can use one and you have to spend time to use it again to flip back.  Designer may think that cd if half from our elite. But. Some skill we don’t want to active them such as skill leap forward- backwards.  You hit mob and just need HP. I don’t want leap back. 
 

again if I use F2. Errr the skill I want to use next already flip . So I have to wait and spend energy again.?
 

so in conclusion, it is workable for open world.

 

as for trait … 

set https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaver's_Curse

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Angsiyan's_Trust

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Song_of_Arboreum
 

song of arboretum is most versatile.  Ang trust get only 10 End. And no one expect refill END other than Vindicator. If you expect for raid dodge. May be acceptable.

reaver curse work only mob or Zerg but you get only 5 END for solo unless you pull mobs.

 

my point is . We might have to rework reaver and Ang to make more attractive. Or else change their function .

 

and lastly. Dodge should consume only 50 END  or the worst is 100 point , not 100%

it will mess up last trait set. It seem best solution for player after test is https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Saint_of_zu_Heltzer

 

consume 50 point , Same habit. We just thrown damage function and got heal. Instead.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forerunner_of_Death Over consume endurance. If it consume only 100 point not 100% . It still under consideration.

 

[Otter.3841]

I just want another F spirit swap so I can swap between support or DPS on the go. What I did play of the Vindicator felt clunky, to me, simply because of the skills flipping roles after use. Sure you get the F skill to reverse them all to the other role but it doesn't feel great. Again, that's just my opinion.

Edit: To be clear, I'm expressing that it would be cooler to have three spirits. One of the usual spirit and a new F key to swap which of the duo you are on.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Soul SilverRose.6351

[LivingLegend.6528]

11 hours ago, Thon.3780 said:

I try to understand designer to make flip mechanic more versatile.

but… the blind spot also too much as well.

Although we set button and wait for flip. It can use one and you have to spend time to use it again to flip back.  Designer may think that cd if half from our elite. But. Some skill we don’t want to active them such as skill leap forward- backwards.  You hit mob and just need HP. I don’t want leap back. 
 

again if I use F2. Errr the skill I want to use next already flip . So I have to wait and spend energy again.?
 

so in conclusion, it is workable for open world.

 

as for trait … 

set https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaver's_Curse

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Angsiyan's_Trust

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Song_of_Arboreum
 

song of arboretum is most versatile.  Ang trust get only 10 End. And no one expect refill END other than Vindicator. If you expect for raid dodge. May be acceptable.

reaver curse work only mob or Zerg but you get only 5 END for solo unless you pull mobs.

 

my point is . We might have to rework reaver and Ang to make more attractive. Or else change their function .

 

and lastly. Dodge should consume only 50 END  or the worst is 100 point , not 100%

it will mess up last trait set. It seem best solution for player after test is https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Saint_of_zu_Heltzer

 

consume 50 point , Same habit. We just thrown damage function and got heal. Instead.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forerunner_of_Death Over consume endurance. If it consume only 100 point not 100% . It still under consideration.

 

In a way i feel it might work but rev sort of have a few things going on lile energy management, wpn cooldown, legend swap and cooldown on skills if they insist on the switching of utilities then now it adds another thing for us to manage. In the long run people are going to think even if they enjoy the lore and profession if they are not doing better than other profession despite doing so much they might just drop this espec entirely. Imagine you do so many things while playing but you are not doing nearly half as good as renegade and other profession espec not saying it won't as of now.

 

Given how limited time they have now i think they could just split the utilities and on f2 just do something like a shroud and maybe call it mist shroud so you take form of which ever legend you choose to add more survivability to the vindicator spec(well i jist throw in this random thoughts on mist shroud when i am replying lol).

[Kidel.2057]

Just watched Guild Chat. 

Very happy with the changes on Vindicator. No ani lock on dodge + 100 Endurance on all dodges + F3 and no auto-flipover is definitely what we wanted. 

For time reasons they didn't mention anything about CC and Urn of Saint Viktor, but since they listened to feedback on the most important areas, I'm sure they tweaked those too.

edit: nervermind just noticed this. Very happy with the changes on paper, we got some CC on Reaver's Rage and some damage buff on GS. I'd still like some CC on GS as well, but I get they may want to make it more unique. I'm surprised there is no change on Spear of Archemorus. 👀

 

Edited November 24, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Savoren.3910]

Setting endurance cost of all dodges to 100 is a nice indirect buff to power builds and adding a toggle for Alliance legend skills is a welcome change especially for support builds that use Ventari/Saint Viktor. For power builds, it doesn't quite put Archemorus back on the table as I'm still planning to stick with Shiro/Jalis, but of course I'll still give it another try in next beta to have a more accurate opinion about it after these changes.

 

During last beta dodge wasn't working properly as it wasn't an immunity frame. I have been feared during dodge and I remember other players have mentioned about getting affected by other CCs midair as well. Being unable to avoid getting affected by CCs defeats the point of dodge and I hope they'll take a look at that before the expansion goes live. That is, unless that was an undocumented change and they've already fixed that.

Quote

Dodge: Removed the pause at the end of the dodge. Fixed a bug that caused evasion to end before the dodge itself. These abilities are no longer affected by animation timescales.

 

Another change I'd like to see is getting a CC skill on GS. They're adding daze to one of the Archemorus skills which is a step in the right direction, but GS still requires a CC skill otherwise it'll be the only weapon without any way to deal with breakbars.

 

Overall, these changes look promising. I hope they'll continue listening to feedback and further improve the spec by the time the expansion goes live.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Savoren.3910

[Buran.3796]

55 minutes ago, Savoren.3910 said:

Setting endurance cost of all dodges to 100 is a nice indirect buff to power builds

   That's terrible news for PvP/WvW. Regular cost of evade in all classes is 50, and the third trait for evasion (Saint of zu Heltzer) was the only one which respected that cost. That's the reason why worked well despite we weren't unable to stack two dodges in a row. Now we will have a non-stackable single dodge as the Mirage, BUT OURS COST 100 UNITS.

   Since neither Forerunner of Death nor Vasssals of the Empire do significative damage (in fact both are a net loss of damage compared to auto attack) and they will get mild buffs in damage at PvE (66% and 25% respectively) but nerfs in PvP/WvW (-11%) where arleady did nothing I don't see how the spec could get any use on that game modes: you dodge cost x2 of any other class, you can't stack two dodges, you get no compensation for that loss, The Alliance remains useless for competitive game modes, no news about fixeing greatsword #3 range being 1/3 of the described. Congrats: we had a potential bruiser, now we have nothing. 

 

Edit: link to the notes:

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Upcoming_changes_and_features/End_of_Dragons_Elite_Specialization_Updates

Edited November 25, 2021 by Buran.3796

[Caid.4932]

Not at all keen on a 100 endurance dodge. Saint of zu Heltzer was the fun and usable dodge, model the other two on that.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

While I would have preferred every dodge to get brought down to 50 endurance while decreasing their potency, in general I am actually a big fan of these changes. I think the legend will feel massively better with the lower cooldowns and with the F2 being split. As a support fan who felt potential in the previous Vindi beta, I am pretty hyped for how it will feel in WvW. I will be happy to just straight up ignore most of the orange skills and look forward to not having to waste energy to cycle back to the skills I want. In general though I could very likely see the F2 being completely ignored in most circumstances across most builds. These changes in general create more playable and viable builds even though they they encourage ignoring a big part of the elite spec's mechanic.

 

Not saying the changes are perfect, but I think they were a big step in the right direction. At least we got substantial mechanical changes unlike our poor Virtuoso comrades.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Kidel.2057]

11 hours ago, Caid.4932 said:

Not at all keen on a 100 endurance dodge. Saint of zu Heltzer was the fun and usable dodge, model the other two on that.

Saint of zu Heltzer was probably a bit too strong. So much so that it alone carried Vindicator in the first beta, despite everything else being useless. Vin kicked kitten in pvp only with Saint of zu Heltzer, no GS, no Alliance. Keep in mind that, despite being 100 endurance, the endurance generation on Vindicator is off the charts and can be maxed out with no food. 

I was expecting just the endurance increase tho, not a change on barrier/heal. The notes don't say if they've nerfed or buffed the effect. We'll have to see. 

Overall I'm quite happy with the fact that the +15% strike damage dodge is now 100 endurance AND 66% stronger. This will overall increase the dps of the spec considerably, while adding a +10% from the new trait. 

I agree it still needs CC on GS, or GS needs to bring something else in exchange (invuln frames? Since dodges are offensive) and probably a rework on the 2 elite skills.

Overall we're on the right track. 👍
 

[Kidel.2057]

9 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

I could very likely see the F2 being completely ignored in most circumstances across most builds.

I think it will most likely work like FB tomes. For example you may be on a full dps build and stay on Archemorus most of the time, but you may need som healing or support, so you decide to swap a sec to Saint and recover, and swap back in 10 seconds. 

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Saint of zu Heltzer was probably a bit too strong. So much so that it alone carried Vindicator in the first beta, despite everything else being useless. Vin kicked kitten in pvp only with Saint of zu Heltzer, no GS, no Alliance. Keep in mind that, despite being 100 endurance, the endurance generation on Vindicator is off the charts and can be maxed out with no food. 
 

   Good. Was usable and not straight garbage at PvP/WvW as Renegade at the release. The new legend provided nothing interesting and the greatsword felt slow and weak, so at least the dodge was interesting and useful, instead of a "dead on arrival" as the Willbender.

   Now we not only lost the second stack of the dodge, but the cost of the endurance is doubled. And the traits which gives us vigor procs...  After dodging, which now happens 1/2 of the time. Plus weakness wreacks vigor. Where's our Blurred Inscriptions to get i-frames to compensate the lack of evades? Why the greatsword has neither evades nor cc nor condition damage sources to allow alternative builds?

   I called awful the Vindicator on paper, but in the beta, after ditching the useless legend and taking advantage of the viable choices, changed my mind: albeit lacked deepth in buildcrafting, at least has potential as a bruiser. Now is nothing.

   The changes are nasty. The ones related to the Alliance and their mechanics are wellcomed, but Vindicator won't be used at PvE, and at competitive gameplay is a sitting duck.

Edited November 25, 2021 by Buran.3796