Vindicator Feedback Thread

[Kidel.2057]

So far I like the dodge mechanic more and more. All 3 dodges seem to be useful in different situations. Imperial Impact tooltip is still bugged tho. 

GS is strong, but skill 3 is still bugged and not very useful, plus it really needs CC, come on. I find S/S and Staff still superior in real situations, GS is probably good now against training golems. 

But Legendary Alliance is still the weak part of this spec. 
I honestly can't find a reason to use Shiro+Alliance or Jalis+Alliance over Jalis+Shiro. Overall both Alliance sides may have useful skills if you consider all 10, but the right one for the situation often requires flipping over with F3, which is not ideal. It's like having 2 half legends instead of 2 good ones. This is very much obvious with the 2 healing skills, that require using one, pressing F3 and using the other. Let's go skill by skill. 

- Selfish Spirit and Selfless Spirit: 2 very weak heals. I often have to use one, press F3 and use the other. Please make 1 strong heal and give it global cd on both sides of the flipover (or keep them different but make them strong with a global cooldown over the other one). At the moment I find no reason to use this over Soothing Stone. But even Enchanted Daggers is far better, healing for 1600 immediately and 800*6 with hits. 
- Battle Dance: for what it does, Shiro already has Riposting Shadows which is also a stunbreak. 
- Nomad's Advance: Shiro's Phase Traversal again is very similar, but far better since it's unblockable and goes to the target (can't fall down stuff).
- Scavenger Burst and Tree Song: the only 2 solid and unique skills of the kit. Give endurance and Tree Song is a dodge (??? a bit counter intuitive). 
- Reaver's Rage: stunbreak and CC is not really a good idea (this is stunbreak on Kalla's heal all over again...). I more often than not have to save this to stunbreak, so I can't have it as an offensive CC and Vice versa. Plus it's the only CC of the whole elite spec. Why should I use it over Jade Winds or Forced Engagement? Those are far stronger CCs, are always available (no flipover to care about). Jalis not only has Forced Engagement, but also Inspiring Reinforcement for AOE Stability.
- Awakening: no CC on this one, the Stability is far worse compared Inspiring Reinforcement which also applies Weakness and damage... Also stunbreak on the stability buff skill, uhm... Again, why should I pick this over Jalis? 

Finally let's go to the elites. Oh boy. 
- Spear of Archemorous: 2000 range is nice on paper, but you never make real use of it. If you're too far it just misses (Out of Range), but generally any target is always far too close for that to be useful. What's the situation? Also an elite skill that just does ranged damage? On a mainly melee spec? Why? It's also slow and super easy to dodge in PvP/WvW. Used it 5 times, failed 4 times, the only hit was just damage, stopped wasting energy on it. 
- Urn of Saint Viktor + Drop Urn: this is still trash. It seriously needs Stability or something like that. It's far too easy to get stunned while using Drop Urn and just self-kill (the animation is too windy and slow, should be unblockable or give stab). Plus Drop Urn does nothing. Can't even heal the damage done by the upkeep itself. Even "double tap" is useless. So basically this can only used in VERY EASY group content (basically where you can't die even if you can't be healed and lose gradually HP) to make it even easier for them but harder for you. Again, I can't think of a situation where this skill is useful. Drop Urn should give all the effects regardless of threshold and should also provide a big healing so that it can be safely double tapped to have some use in normal scenarios. 

Even after 2 beta events, this spec has the worst Elite skills in the entire game. 

But even excluding the 2 elites, I really see no reason why I shouldn't use Jalis+Shiro over Alliance+whatever. 

And this brings us to F2 and F3: this spec has basically no F2 or F3. it's completely sustained by Core legends and the dodge mechanic. 
 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Nox Noctis X.9284]

Maybe remove the cast time on f3 when swapping as it already has a cool down and it feels like it should be when you swap legends normally. Not a major bug but I noticed that when you do the leap/dodge and swap to an outfit, your character model will appear for a moment and then disappear again into the sky. Would be nice if this was changed to have a sort of transformation sequence.

[Black Teagan.9215]

The changes really improve the feeling and playable of the Vindicator (from a PvE sight), but still think that many GS Skills, traits and abilities need some buffs/changes.

 

I always saw the Vindicator also as a kind of "Revenge" Spec, means that it gets stronger when it is hitted by the enemy and had some ideas that could be useful:

 

Greatsword:

Greatsword #1:  I see no need for changes here right now.

Greatsword #2: Remove the Chill from GS#3 and add it here. (Increase CD if necessary)

Greatsword #3:  Instead of Chill it should have a small Evade

Greatsword #4:  True Strike: Insteads of a swing this skill should attack every enemy (up to 5) around the player and gain fury (2-3 secs) for each hit.

Greatsword #5: Additional this skill should pull enemies in a small area to the player, increase cost OR lower dmg.

 

Skills:

Spear of Archemorus: Instead of a single target skill it should dmg up to 5 targets, replace torment with something more dangerous like burning, also make it an explosive finisher.

 

Traits:

For now I think that all 3 Adept and Grandmaster Traits are in a good state, unlike the Master Traits.

While the adept and grandmaster traits add some options how we want to play it, the mastertraits massively fails.

Not one of them is strong enough to compensate the lost of one dodge and the doubled cost of the last remaining one.

 

I think these 3 traits should get reworked to support an unique playstyle like the other 6 traits do, additional should one of the minor traits get a buff and gain vigor. For example, for 5 secs (5 secs CD) after receiving a critical hit.

[Black Teagan.9215]

46 minutes ago, Nox Noctis X.9284 said:

Maybe remove the cast time on f3 when swapping as it already has a cool down and it feels like it should be when you swap legends normally. [...]

 

Not a bad idea, but I wouldn't removing the CD completely, as it also would remove a tactical element, but instead setting it to a very small number like 3 secs.

[Empirical.6504]

Feedback on: Alliance Tactics

 

I really enjoyed the previous style where individual abilities would flip on use, I thought it was engaging and fun. Whereas I find the new change to just flipping all of them at once far less interesting. I'd love to see a return to the previous style.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Empirical.6504
Typo.

[Krillaklise.9461]

Kinda feel like the greatsword rush maybe could be a leap finisher, or, a shadow step. Feels like Vindicator has a bit less choice for self combos compared to Herald / renegade.

Speaking of; am I the only one who feels like somewhere in the utility skills we should have a field? 

 

Aside from this I love it. The only thing really as personal taste, would be a bit better meld with mallyx, wether that's more chill or torment somewhere.

 

 

[Feldherren.5643]

I'm really quite disappointed that Vindicator abilities no longer flip on use. It just feels like you have three legends now, which whilst technically a different thing is not particularly interesting as a mechanical element, so the elite spec no longer feels like it has as much a distinct identity as any of the rest of them.

[Krillaklise.9461]

If an issue is swapping the 2 sets of utilities. Why not cause them to mesh better? One could have finishers, the other fields, etc. Have them do polar opposite things in a different fashion rather than damage VS support (looking at the out of place burning and torment). We could add debuffing to kurzick side for example.

Or simply take the polar opposites idea and combine them and have each skill reflect opposites.

Quickness/slow. Burning/chill. Healing/poison. Stability/C.C. Might/weakness. 

Etc.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Krillaklise.9461
Original to long. Now condensed.

[Buran.3796]

   Some first impressions about this second beta:

*) The implementation of the beta characters is really bad. Rune and sigil selection is garbage, you can't buy new ones to test from the BL market, etc. Is as bad as it was, but the first time I had no clue about what wanted to build, now I known and I can't. And that's despite having the full armor a ring, a back piece and most of the weapons in legendary status. I won't craft overpriced runes and sigils just to properly equip the crapy equipped beta characters, and this is a rant that aleady saw before from other . Give us propper  tools to test or go away, ANet!

*) Dodge is now garbage.  10 to 14 full seconds to fill a bar using Song of Arboreum + Unwavering Avoidance + two sigils of energy (the whole build, and you still lag behind eveyone). You won't get more that 4 second vigor in PvP. Dodge is o bad that in some PvP matches forgot for a while I had a it for ~30 seconds due my brain was focusing on survive with weapon and utility skills  because dodge was "oh, that thing that you no longer has and you die while waiting it, better forget about it kid!" By the way, aside from increasing the cost of the third evade x2, we lost the healing (we heal ~160) albeit we get a 4k barrier (which makes me remember how much I hate barrier, this mechanic stolen from other games which works so badly in PvP due was never mean to exist in it).

*) Sword #3 keeps undelivering; at most it reachs ~450 units, half of what is promised.

*)Sword #4 counterattack doesn't track and the only use it has in PvP is letting other characters to interrupt us. Is specially dangerous if you have a thief running around you.

*) Sword #5 seems the most unrewarding random movement in the game: sometimes you place yourself rightly facing your foe/s just to deliver the hits on any random place in the area for 0 effect, and other times an enemy expertly avoids your placement and reachs your flank/rear just to be engulfed  by a swarm of hits which you had 0 hopes to land. It would be a super frustrating skill for any player which valiues skill, for sure. Expect huge nerfs. 

 

[Jah Warrior.9682]

Please fix greatsword 3 range (bugged), please increase damage on Archemorus Spear (very weak), please add cc on gs 3 or 5, and please tweak the numbers a bit to make this power spec viable and competitive with other power specs like Catalyst (55k on large hitbozes) and Virtuoso (39-40k). We want to be able to justify having 1 dodge to utilize and an additional legend swap mechanic to keep track of (or not). Other than that this is a really good change, and a really solid step in the right direction! 

[Harak.8397]

1 hour ago, Feldherren.5643 said:

I'm really quite disappointed that Vindicator abilities no longer flip on use. It just feels like you have three legends now, which whilst technically a different thing is not particularly interesting as a mechanical element, so the elite spec no longer feels like it has as much a distinct identity as any of the rest of them.

I was coming here to post this comment and expecting a record setting amount of "confused" reactions by tomorrow morning. You beat me to it. I understand why the vast majority wanted this change and I respect that but I had no issue ( in PvE ) with "the dance" and had accepted the Vindicator as a non min/max friendly spec that splits its energy between offense and defense/support. Now it just feels like it's going to be another berserker spec with Archemorus OR some support with Saint Viktor. They will carry two gear sets and never touch the other legend they have slotted.

I mean ok, it's much more simple and predictable but beyond the dodge mechanic this is a flashy GS warrior. Is this what we wanted ?

[LivingLegend.6528]

Not sure about others but i personally feel that the changes are quite good. That being said they need to re adjust the numbers and effects on the vindicator kit. Maybe ache side they could do more self sustain. 

 

Traits also should not have too many things dedicated to the dodging mechanics.

 

As for gs i myself feel that maybe they could add some condition to the attacks as of now there isn't tracking on gs#4(if i remember correctly)it might be good to work similar to spell breaker's full counter. I feel that rev have decent melee dps wpn the problem is lack of range weapon and if you are playing condi its the standard mace/axe. 

 

They might want to also look at the pve aspect because i feel that vindicator was design with pvp in mind which i think they could easily separate what it does between pve and pvp.

[Angesombre.4630]

Personally there has been some improvement, "is this the best option?" I don't know with the F3. 

Competence
The elite spear for me is still not up to par even though it has a great range. An attack zone or multiple targets would be good I think.
The urn I couldn't really test to see what it gave but I find it lacks something in regards to the buffs it confers, even if improved too.
The support skills should be a little more advanced.

Weapon
I would like to have a little more dps multiplier on the greatsword which still seems a little light. Then maybe have a little more alteration on it to change from the mace and the axe. The 3 is still buggy I think on the greatsword. The 5 does some damage but too random. I say that because it's a CaC weapon and that can lead to taking more risks.

Dodge
For the jump dodge I find that there are still problems with it as it is long, I was affected by alterations in the air and I took a lot of damage without being able to purge and it is too predictable when landing. And if I may say so on the thief the same thing is much faster and does a lot of damage knowing that they have 3, ok the area is not the same I grant it but it's just a comment. I would have liked to have the choice to land when I want for the surprise effect.

Trait 
I think that some trait are not too useful like "Reaver's Curse" and "Redemptor's Sermon".

Still no CC.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Angesombre.4630

[gwalt one.4895]

I think this time around it feels better for sure but just wanted to share my thoughts as I'm still unsure where I land with Vindicator at the moment.

 

I think the dodge mechanic could use some further tweaking(like the idea someone else had about making the jump into the F2). I have a hard time remembering to use my dodge offensively since it's mostly been used defensively since the game first launched with some exceptions withstanding(mirage, daredevil, etc.). I understand this can be muscle memory tweaking but sometimes I feel punished for dodging offensively as dodge won't be there when it's needed to, well dodge.

 

Also I'm honestly I'm still opposed to the flip mechanic of the dual legend as it just feels like another F1/Legend Swap for a set of utilities that more than likely won't match your gear and I think it could be a "double" legend allowing us to select which utilities we want as that's what Rev is missing. The idea would be say maybe I want Selfish Spirit heal and Battle Dance evade on the same bar since GS3 already has an engage(buggy but still there) and don't necessarily need Noma's Advance. Allowing some customization of our utilities would have been nice.
 

You could even keep the flip button(still not a fan tbh) which could swap your current selections for their counterparts.

[Naxos.2503]

The new changes made me finally enjoy the class. I'm not as heavily punished for dodging, and it's now possible to build for a specialist Or hybrid. 

And I could do my arrowhead test compared to before in which I died after my first dodge. I eventually got confortable enough that I no longer needed staff to use skill 3 and 5 to bridge dodges. I've also learned to appreciate greatsword 4, landing some very satisfying counters with it. 

Now it's in a place where I can realistically feel I could go for Vindicator or Renegade, whereas before, I couldn't see myself use it.

[Adah.8371]

I like the changes with the new swap system. It's definitely better.

Here are the points I'd like to see updated on the final version:

 

* Is it possible to add some more alteration on the Greatsword? The spec is supposed to be hybrid but that's definitely not true right now. It's just a power spec.

* The elite skill Archemorus with the lance is beautiful but totally useless... 1 target and not very powerful.

* The animations on the Greatsword are not really epic... They're too simple for me, especially #5

 

This is just my opinion on what I'd like to see evolve. 

Enjoy the beta folks! 

[Zenith.7301]

If you noticed this build they virtually did nothing to substantially buff the Sword/Sword or Greatswor skill damage coefficients. Which is why power revenant builds are so abysmal in PvE

 

The other reason really is that Shiro and Archemorus are undertuned garbage in PvE as well. The Archemorus elite already channeled for like 3 seconds for a pitiful 14k damage crit at full 25 might with buffs on the golem. Most of Archemorus's skills are totally redundant in organized PvE with a boon support HB or renegade unless they pump up their damage.

 

They're all awful, boring repeats of the garbage reaper shouts that nobody uses in PvE, because scaling buff duration on boons that are already capped in group content, and in raids where most encounters are 90%+ of the time against a single target = useless utility skill.

 

Archemorus feels absolutely mediocre as a DPS legend for power specs, and Shiro was already mediocre to begin with.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Thoughts from a general and wvw/pvp perspective from a bit more testing :

1) The UI and Audio elements still need work.  There is no audible sound when swapping legends like the other legends.  There is no "energy" element over the 6 to 0 skills like the other legends (flames on glint, etc.).  I'm assuming these will be added later, but want to point them out since they're still not there and there are only 3 months left before EoD release.

2)  The lack of CC in Alliance is glaring in WvW/PvP.

3) Fix the bugged tooltip or range of GS3

4) The elite skills are....weird.  I think the spear is almost good, but seems to just fail to hit at times when it should.  Urn seems like it could theoretically be useful if you're damaged, but doesn't seem to justify use otherwise.  Maybe reduce the damage to yourself if at lower health thresholds, therefore encouraging use when low.  Also a nitpick but the Urn animation seems disjointed.

5) The lack of Swiftness from traits, skills, etc. is very strange.  I know there's a lot of movement already, but Vindicator seems like it should have swiftness.  Rev only has TWO sources of swiftness (well, a 3rd if you count blasting road) and one is locked behind an elite spec.  Swiftness is absolutely thematic with Vindicator and should be available to it in some shape or form without taking Invocation or Jalis + Blast.

Lastly, my #1 want
6)  Chill on Eternity's Requiem (GS#5) would be perfect; I would be okay with no CC on the GS if it had a 3rd source of chill on #5 

Otherwise it's coming together and feeling a lot better.  Hopefully more changes between now and release will put it into an even better state.

Edited December 1, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Skyroar.2974]

3 hours ago, Harak.8397 said:

I was coming here to post this comment and expecting a record setting amount of "confused" reactions by tomorrow morning. You beat me to it. I understand why the vast majority wanted this change and I respect that but I had no issue ( in PvE ) with "the dance" and had accepted the Vindicator as a non min/max friendly spec that splits its energy between offense and defense/support. Now it just feels like it's going to be another berserker spec with Archemorus OR some support with Saint Viktor. They will carry two gear sets and never touch the other legend they have slotted.

I mean ok, it's much more simple and predictable but beyond the dodge mechanic this is a flashy GS warrior. Is this what we wanted ?

I did want that, but done differently. Alliance should be split into 2 legends and F3 go away. Simple solution. Would achieve the same thing in a way that is simpler to understand and more customisable to the player. No Revenant-inside-a-Revenant sillyness.

I don't understand the point of having a worse version of the F1 swap mechanic existing alongside it.

Edited December 1, 2021 by Skyroar.2974

[LivingLegend.6528]

I might be wrong but i feel that they just split the 2 but never really adjust the effects and number of those utilities. 

 

They can re adjust all the vindicator legends and maybe be let us pick and choose what we want like other profession but only acha and vicktor skills in one for us to mix and match 

[LivingLegend.6528]

Not sure how i can delete this post because it submitted twice.

Edited December 1, 2021 by LivingLegend.6528

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Support Vindi felt really nice in WvW. Healing and cleanse potential is extremely high. Killed myself a lot with the urn because I was using it far too recklessly. I would like them to remove the slam effect in its current iteration and instead just give the bonus effect if dodging while the upkeep is up, and increase the upkeep to -7. Although the risk is cool in theory, in practice it is easily a huge liability. Otherwise, a 10s CD heal skill is nice, and in general the low cooldowns feel great. Would like it if the evade utility gave swiftness instead of regen considering the legend is littered with regen everywhere.

 

Not a fan of how power Vindi with Alliance stance feels. I felt like half as powerful than I do on my normal core Rev build unless I got a nice meaty gs5 burst off on somebody. Archemorus feels meh and generally unimpactful. Was not really feeling it at all.

 

Annoyed that GS3 distance is still bugged.

 

The legend icon and legend swap art are still visual abominations.

[Ulysses.2058]

Overall happy with the changes, but there's still important stuff to work on. 

Traits need serious changes, especially the master tier. Give it diversity, right now all three are just "get some endurance back".

Having cast times on F2 and F3 feels extremely clunky. So much so that I find myself not using them at all just not to break the flow of combat. If it's because of balance, then try to balance it in other ways. Let's say you need to dodge fast and lack endurance: the cast time just renders the skill useless in that scenario. Same thing with F3 and the kurzick dodge.

As many have pointed out already, GS desperately needs some CC.

And lastly, I'd love to see some animation changes on GS. I know it's kind of unrealistic to expect big changes, but maybe recycle stuff that fits better? Such as Maul's instead of current GS2. And also adding some mist effects to the second part of the jump —right now the character just pops out of thin air. 

[flowdragon.8635]

Great work! Vindicator feels so much better this time! I'm actually interested in playing with it after these changes! I have no complaints.

[Dark.8093]

Sorry, but this craft, which for some reason is considered a legend by a misunderstanding, looks like a mockery against the background of other classes. The second beta testing only strengthened my opinion. Please give us only GS and the legend next time 

 

This "legend" reflects nothing and carries no history or meaning.

 

You heard us and added F3, thanks! But why was it only partly heard? F2 is still useless rubbish, having both cd and casttime, and does not really give anything to other stands, from the word in general.

 

Evasion had to be moved to F2, and the current meaning given to oblivion.

 

Elite abilities that are ashamed to press will soon become the revenant's calling card and thanks again