Vindicator Feedback Thread

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 minutes ago, Tungsten Monarch.6058 said:

you have 3 heals or more based upon your skill bar set up and trait line selections. Try running Celestial Gear traveler runes with the following trait lines, Corruption 222, Salvation 1 2 1 and Vindicator 2 2 2.  Run Staff and Two Handed Sword and try it. Weapons with sigils that aid strike damage and provide torment on crit.

I actually play Condi Herald most of the time in WvW, so naturally I tried Vindicator as a hybrid with Celestial gear with a similar set up to what you're suggesting (did not use Salvation though).  While yes, the build has a lot of sustain, I don't think it's as tanky or effective as cHerald and the reason I think that is the channeled heals.  I noticed that every time I was using the the heals it was essentially free real estate for my opponent(s) to continue to pressure me, so usually I'd end up only slightly better off than I was before I used the heal.  And this is entirely due to the channel; without some way to LoS (WvW doesn't always have that option obvi) you just eat damage while healing

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

1 minute ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I actually play Condi Herald most of the time in WvW, so naturally I tried Vindicator as a hybrid with Celestial gear with a similar set up to what you're suggesting (did not use Salvation though).  While yes, the build has a lot of sustain, I don't think it's as tanky or effective as cHerald and the reason I think that is the channeled heals.  I noticed that every time I was using the the heals it was essentially free real estate for my opponent(s) to continue to pressure me, so usually I'd end up only slightly better off than I was before I used the heal.  And this is entirely due to the channel; without some way to LoS (WvW doesn't always have that option obvi) you just eat damage while healing

the advantage of the corruption line I'm suggesting works well for WvW, as it aid's in sustain, while you could go Corruption 2 1 2, to increase damage, the 2 2 2 is nice for sustain the condi negation.  Ideally I'd like to use Runes of the Revenant for my set up, but I'm only limited to what they made available for us. Salvation aids in both healing, and also in providing vigor that empowers your Dodge mechanic, to apply both Chill and Healing upon landing. I think you can figure where I'm going with this set up.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

I tried it briefly in PvE this afternoon for about half an hour. Having not paid particular attention to the numerical specifics my opinions are a little more general. I like the changes, and was quickly able to string together a variety of combosto deal with the usual sort of bullet hell end game solo pve turns into. Using the dodge offensively is neat. I found I wasn't really lacking for defensive options with SS having an evade and block, GS having a block, and then the long dodge going some way toward buying time for your cooldowns. Being able to cycle between a full bar of either alliance skill set was also great. My concern is the meld skill seems like a bandaid. It is a great improvement though, super happy!

[Kidel.2057]

20 minutes ago, Tungsten Monarch.6058 said:

you have 3 heals or more based upon your skill bar set up and trait line selections. Try running Celestial Gear traveler runes with the following trait lines, Corruption 222, Salvation 1 2 1 and Vindicator 2 2 2.  Run Staff and Two Handed Sword and try it. Weapons with sigils that aid strike damage and provide torment on crit.

It's 1 heal + 2 half heals at best. The 2 channeling ones are unusable in pvp during a combat, they're slow and don't heal much, with a long casting time. 

They should heal more or at least provide some mitigation while channeling. I don't mind having a global CD for the healing slot on Alliance if that helps making it a solid heal. 

During the spec presentation I was hopeful that we'd have double-tap on Urn as a secondary heal (the guy even mentioned that, but ended up being a lie). 

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

5 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

It's 1 heal + 2 half heals at best. The 2 channeling ones are unusable in pvp during a combat, they're slow and don't heal much, with a long casting time. 

They should heal more or at least provide some mitigation while channeling. I don't mind having a global CD for the healing slot on Alliance if that helps making it a solid heal. 

During the spec presentation I was hopeful that we'd have double-tap on Urn as a secondary heal (the guy even mentioned that, but ended up being a lie). 

Corruption line negates condition damage and gives you 20% strike mitigation, gives 500+ healing a second for every second you have Resistance, Salvation Orbs that drop in combat give you 350+ vigor, You get damage mitigation in the form of Barrier for every boon, you have constant regeneration by using your Saint Victor line, etc... plus more boons. I just don't see the issue. I literally ran though some of the toughest area's in HoT, without breaking a sweat and slaughtered everything in my path.

[Kidel.2057]

5 minutes ago, Tungsten Monarch.6058 said:

Corruption line negates condition damage and gives you 20% strike mitigation, gives 500+ healing a second for every second you have Resistance, Salvation Orbs that drop in combat give you 350+ vigor, You get damage mitigation in the form of Barrier for every boon, you have constant regeneration by using your Saint Victor line, etc... plus more boons. I just don't see the issue. I literally ran though some of the toughest area's in HoT, without breaking a sweat and slaughtered everything in my path.

Sure, but why would I use Alliance? What you described is stuff I get from Core Rev + Vindicator traits, I don't need the 2 crap heals. Using Mallyx/Shiro/Jalis seems more effective. Just for Battle Dance? 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

6 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Sure, but why would I use Alliance? What you described is stuff I get from Core Rev + Vindicator traits, I don't need the 2 crap heals. Using Mallyx/Shiro/Jalis seems more effective. Just for Battle Dance? 

I'm not here to argue with some guy on the internet, I just showed that your argument makes no sense since you have plenty of healing going on. If you can't see the benefit's of the set up they've provided, there is nothing I can say that will change your opinion.

[Kidel.2057]

3 minutes ago, Tungsten Monarch.6058 said:

I'm not here to argue with some guy on the internet, I just showed that your argument makes no sense since you have plenty of healing going on. If you can't see the benefit's of the set up they've provided, there is nothing I can say that will change your opinion.

That escalated quickly. Are we arguing? 
I never denied the fact that Rev has a lot of passive healing. You also didn't even mention the only option. There is Battle Scars (siphon damage at every attack) or even Rapid Flow (healing+swiftness at every attack). Maybe you mistook me for someone else you're arguing with? 

I simply said that the "3" healing skills are not exactly good as "3". You'd be better off not using Alliance with your same exact build, that I'm sure is great. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Caid.4932]

The heals work pretty well against a few enemies to be fair. Low cooldown is nice for Dome of Mists trait too. Individually other heals are better in most cases but being able to fire 2 heals off before switching legend feels like a good bonus. Maybe a bit too passive as someone said but it'll buy time if nothing else.

I find the new alliance being locked down a less interesting idea but in practice i just prefer it. It gives the spec great flexibility which i guess the game doesn't always reward or encourage but its nice to play all the same. Feels like i can mix things up in a pinch and fill a completely different roll - not particularly well but enough to give the healer for instance a bit of breathing space or to help out with condi cleanse for a bit before reverting to damage.

Have to agree with others on Greatsword, bit more synergy via weakness or chill would be nice. Or cc of some kind. Just feels a bit plain as is. Entire toolkit is quite lacking in cc

[Loki.4871]

Suggestion for the greatsword: currently it's using the same swing sound as swords; perhaps feedback would be improved if it used a 'heavy' swinging sound, perhaps the hammers? Or a new one entirely?

[SunTheBro.4853]

Been messing around and having a lot more fun with the spec this time around. Some work still needs to be done though.

 

As others have echoed, it desperately needs more CC. Certain traits need tuning/rework as they feel lackluster (Leviathan Strength and Reaver's Curse feel too weak to slot over other options). Reused animations, namely G1 with GS 2 and GS 4, is unacceptable and boring. Visually the skill icons look out if place for a Rev spec - way too saturated and needs more than just one color (more dark edgey goodness plz). Elites still feel underwhelming. Spear is still way too weak. Either bump up the damage or change it entirely.

 

Some possible ideas/changes that I think may help?

- Adding a stun to GS 2

- Add an evade to GS 3 and Nomad's Advance

- Add Chill to GS 5

 - Spear Of Archemorus: have the spear land in an area that you can target. It does intial damage and then pulses hard CC for a duration.

- Blue skills could use some CC but not sure where.

- Add stability to Urn Of Saint Viktor and increase healing.

 

Also, while I love that the skills don't flip over on activition anymore, there isn't any synergy between the two legends. 

 

What if using either side for a period of time buffed you when you swapped to the other? For example, you use Viktor's skills and are granted a stack of "Viktor's Resolve." Flipping while having some stacks would buff you with an intensity/duration stacking boon for a longer duration. At max stacks, say 5, you gain an additional unique boon upon swapping (i.e swapping from Viktor grants Protection and Aegis for 10s). 

 

That way, there's more of a reason to stay on one side a bit longer and it gives the feeling that the legends are working together a bit more. 

[Kidel.2057]

8 minutes ago, MrSunBro.7629 said:

- Blue skills could use some CC but not sure where.

- Add stability to Urn Of Saint Viktor and increase healing.

can't stress this enough. 

[Frellin.6318]

While I like the new F3 "Alliance Tactics" button, I also miss the added the depth of the abilities swapping. I agree that this update feels more simplified. People will gear for and choose to stay in 1 alliance legend and probably never swap to the other.

 

I'd like to see F3 "Alliance Tactics" also act as a Primary/Secondary switch. Whenever you use an ability for your "Primary" it goes on cooldown and reveals the "Secondary" ability. When the "Primary" goes off cooldown it automatically switches back for you to use. This way you get brief access to the "Secondary" Alliance if you choose to use, but you aren't forced to use it to get your "Primary" back.

[Lobomon.6210]

I didn't play the Vindicator in the first beta but this is my feedback from my time playing in this beta.
I really liked the greatsword. The auto flows nicely, skill 2 feels powerful, dash and block are also good, especially the small window of time you have after the block to use True Strike and the 5 is new and looks good, both in damage and in animation.
Regarding the traits, and the recent feedback from the community wanting more Condi/Power/Support lines, I think the traits are fine, since there are already powerful Condi Builds on other specs and the traits offer different ways to play (like solo vs group play). I prefer this kind of design over Condi vs Power traits because it gives more build diversity.
A couple points to notice would be:
The Adept minor trait (Tenacious Ruin) doesn't explain the access to Legendary Alliance Stance and only mentions the dodge, unlike other elite specs which mention all the new tools the spec has.
Master minor trait (Balance in Discord) doesn't trigger on Alliance Tactics but on Energy Meld (probably went off when the skills were split).
Master trait Angsiyan's Trust has reduced effect on other vindicator specializations. What does that mean? Is it other Legends? Is this just a remnant of the previous version of Alliance Tactics being activated on other legends? If it keeps giving reduced endurance on legend swap in other legends then that reduces build diversity. Players may want to play Vindicator but not Alliance Legend and get punished for it. From a balance perspective, 10 endurance isn't that much now that all dodges are 100 endurance. I'd even point out that Alliance Legend gets two activations on this trait (on legend swap and on Alliance Tactics) so I don't think full effect on other Legends would be too much.
Grandmaster Trait Vassals of the Empire is only showing the boons and the boon extension on the tooltip when the trait is selected, while the others always show their full effects when hovered, even if not selected.
Really looking forward to playing this Spec on my own character.

[Dr Meta.3158]

I'm not sure about pve, but VIndicator is a bit overtuned in pvp

[Black Teagan.9215]

I think they way like the utility skills, Alliance Tactics and their Cooldown are managed probably hurt the class more than it help it.

Right now the cooldowns of the utility skills CDs are very short and independance from their Luxon/Kurzick counterpart. 

Which means the effects have to be weak to keep them balanced, furthermore hurts the long cd of Alliance Tactics the classes versitality when it needs to be.

 

When you need a strong heal you first have to activate one heal skill switch your utilities and use the other.

Is a 7k selfheal worth the costs of 30 energy and 3,5 secs cast time? I think not as the most enemies already do more dmg in this time.

 

I would switch the whole thing: Remove the CD of Alliance Tactic (or set it to one second) but double the CD of the skills and let them share their CD with the counterparts (again).

On this way vindi no longer have to spam their skills (and let them more focus on the fight), but give them additional versitality to change between offensive and defensive skills when they need them.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Black Teagan.9215

[Black Teagan.9215]

I still wonder which plan ANet had in  mind that they remove one dodge and double the costs of the last remaining while trying to compensate this with adding a few skills and traits that gain really less endurace instead of just remove the dodge keep the costs at 50?

The cost of one dodge are now 2-4 times as high as before.

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by Black Teagan.9215

[Angesombre.4630]

I don't want to be unpleasant but it is said that the revenant is supposed to be a hybrid, but if we look at it well this specialization could be like the firebrand which can also do support with a lot of buff, heal and can have a good dps. Same for the druid.
I don't know if this specialization could be useful enough in group to be used.

I'm sticking with a blue specialization with more upgrades for allies and ourselves maybe with traits.

The elite throw it not useful enough and the urn not enough buffs that could be used during the channeling of that if for allies with a consumption of 6 instead of 5 currently.

As it has been said it lacks something the reversal of skill is not bad in itself it was just enough to put the CD on the good skill and not on the following one (that would not give for example red skill, blue switch, use, red return with the end of cd of this skill). A legend lock can be useful depending on the role you want to play as a healer or dps which would make it more versatile on how to play it for everyone.

[Cross.2915]

3 hours ago, Frellin.6318 said:

While I like the new F3 "Alliance Tactics" button, I also miss the added the depth of the abilities swapping. I agree that this update feels more simplified. People will gear for and choose to stay in 1 alliance legend and probably never swap to the other.

 

I'd like to see F3 "Alliance Tactics" also act as a Primary/Secondary switch. Whenever you use an ability for your "Primary" it goes on cooldown and reveals the "Secondary" ability. When the "Primary" goes off cooldown it automatically switches back for you to use. This way you get brief access to the "Secondary" Alliance if you choose to use, but you aren't forced to use it to get your "Primary" back.

Love that flip back automatically idea when CD is done

[Cross.2915]

2 hours ago, Black Teagan.9215 said:

I think they way like the utility skills, Alliance Tactics and their Cooldown are managed probably hurt the class more than it help it.

Right now the cooldowns of the utility skills CDs are very short and independance from their Luxon/Kurzick counterpart. 

Which means the effects have to be weak to keep them balanced, furthermore hurts the long cd of Alliance Tactics the classes versitality when it needs to be.

 

When you need a strong heal you first have to activate one heal skill switch your utilities and use the other.

Is a 7k selfheal worth the costs of 30 energy and 3,5 secs cast time? I think not as the most enemies already do more dmg in this time.

 

I would switch the whole thing: Remove the CD of Alliance Tactic (or set it to one second) but double the CD of the skills and let them share their CD with the counterparts (again).

On this way vindi no longer have to spam their skills (and let them more focus on the fight), but give them additional versitality to change between offensive and defensive skills when they need them.

You pair with battlescars and use the red heal often you don't need to switch heals. The short CD reminds me of FB heals.  You can't use FB mantra heal when almost dead, you have to use it frequently to mitigate damage.

 

Blue heal though, yes that needs something more.

[Zenith.7301]

11 minutes ago, Cross.2915 said:

You pair with battlescars and use the red heal often you don't need to switch heals. The short CD reminds me of FB heals.  You can't use FB mantra heal when almost dead, you have to use it frequently to mitigate damage.

 

Blue heal though, yes that needs something more.

 

 

The Firebrand heal gives aegis, which gives a massive amount of damage mitigation when used well. Not even comparable. It also heals for less because it gives 4 of your allies aegis....Firebrand also has a back up tome not only with heals and condi cleanse but another one with stability spam and a reflect bubble to boot. St. Viktor doesn't even compare, and Archemorus as an offensive legend is only better than Ventari and Mallyx as a power spec, only because those two legends are not power spec legends.

 

It actually produces more DPS to ignote Legendary Alliance stance and go Shiro+Jalis.... and Shiro+Jalis sword/sword power revenant was already incredibly weak in PvE.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Zenith.7301

[Shin Ryu.5802]

Did my usual beta test drive in Crystal Oasis, which offers a nice variety of enemies with cc, condi, etc.  Full disclosure, I play mostly PvE, and this was a pretty casual run of only about half an hour.

I like what they did with Alliance Tactics, which effectively grants access to two new legends separately rather than the former set up where the utility skills flipped between them after every use.  So going with a vindicator elite effectively grants a player access to three legends at a time (Viktor and Archemorus plus any core alt).  It grants players more immediate control over whether they want to be using a dps or sustain skill set, as a LOT of people had issues with the constant skill shift.  That was a good solution based on a composite of players' suggestions, so I appreciate the responsiveness.

The Tenacious Ruin dodge/attack is a bit faster, but I'm still not sold on the necessity of one dodge consuming the entire endurance bar and only being accessible when endurance is full.  I appreciate that the newly-added Energy Meld grants slightly more frequent access to it, but it still seems like accelerating the animation to normal dodge duration so it would be more akin to daredevil's Bound dodge/attack wouldn't be "broken."  Daredevil has 3 dodges, so vindicator being allowed 2 offensive dodges is only "broken" if those dodges remove the players' hit box for a prolonged/unfair period of time compared to standard dodges.

On the plus side, only having one dodge forced me to rely more heavily on Imperial Guard for damage mitigation, and using it to block several hits caused True Strike to hit like a truck.  Since True Strike requires 3/4 of a second to pull off, it takes a bit of tactical planning to ensure it actually connects before getting interrupted or blinded.

Overall, I'd say this iteration of vindicator is a welcome improvement over the first beta.  Sure, there's still room for improvement, but there is definitely progress being made in the right direction.

[Dark.8093]

17 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Тематически легенда прекрасна . Следует знаниям и чертовски хорошо отражает азиатскую философию (например, Инь / Ян). Проблема в том, что это не работает, потому что сами навыки Альянса не имеют ничего уникального по сравнению с основными легендами и недостаточно сильны. 

Я продолжал использовать ALliance, пока не научился неплохо разбираться в Vindicator (используя либо Alliance + Shiro, как я хотел на бумаге, либо Alliance + Jalis). Затем я переключился на Широ + Джалис. Человек, который чувствовал себя так лучше. Сильные исцеления, сильные CC, сильная поддержка, хорошие элиты, те же дары и другие состояния , без урны, без необходимости менять местами, не нужно использовать 3 кнопки для лечения в течение 5 секунд ...

Альянсу нужны: лучший контроль или, по крайней мере, на обеих экипировках (и, пожалуйста, без оглушения для того же навыка, который используется для контроля ...), более сильное лечение (сделайте его глобальным CD с другим лечением, но это дерьмо, чтобы лечить + F3 + лечение), полезные элитные умения, уникальное благо .

На данный момент я не вижу причин использовать альянс против Широ + Джалис, вы можете его предоставить? 

Уловка в порядке. Научитесь играть и покончите с этим. Это единственное, что придает спецификацию уникальности по сравнению с базовой версией Rev. Не делайте это еще одним умением F. 

Yeah yeah, first you say that everything fits, and then you play shiro + jalis, isn't it funny for you yourself? This under-legend has nothing of its own.

Attacking utilities are wide at minimum salaries, but without dps and without uniqueness in the form of buffs, animations

The support looks unique, but for it to be good, you need to abandon your favorite FB in favor of a revenant. Doubt that the developer doesn't give a kitten about us that much. How to balance the urn so it doesn't become OP I have no idea. The idea is not bad, but too imbalanced. Dodging is kitten by definition. Having 1 charge in fact on a huge CD without any profit. Why would I push this? Compare to losing 33% of your crit chance. You had a choice and the time of the penalty is several times less, and the profit is much greater.

Moreover, if we leave the deviation as it is, why don't we actually have f2? Why press this? In order not in 30 years, but in 28 years to press the pseudo-deviation for a lifetime and not really get any profit? You are easy to watch for, easy to dodge and there is no more protection. Let's say the animation time and damage will be tweaked, but we are still without f2 ¯ \ _ (ツ) _ / ¯. In other elites there are excellent tools, but here there are solid fines, just for being there.

[zallesz.1650]

New Vindicator feels a lot more fun to play, but still have some issues. For instance I see no reason why it should be brought to any PVE endgame content. It's dps is OK, but other classes outperform it with an easier rotation. It's support is OK, but other specs can do more and better. Here is a quick list of things that annoyed me:

- GS auto and GS2 skill animation is the same? Does any other class have a situation like this? It feels so disheartening

- Spear Elite does laughably low damage. It's an ELITE skill. It takes 3 uses to kill a regular mob in dragon stand with it. For comparison, it takes 2 auto attack chains. The ELITE skill is literally weaker than auto attack.... seriously? Make it hit like a truck, and add a big cc on top of it, now it can be called an elite. 

- Urn still is totally useless. Another new ELITE skill of the spec that is wasted, and since Revenant cannot chose its skills, it feels like a huge punishment. 

- CD to switch Alliance sides is too long. We need a trait that reduces it, maybe on kill. 

- Stunbreak and CC on the same button? When it's your ONLY cc and stunbreak? Bad design

[The Food One.6285]

My only nitpick that hasn't been mentioned by anyone is that Alliance Tactics should prob have a faster cast time. Right now, the cast speed is a bit slow (roughly similar to opening a FB tome), and is definitely slower than usual legend swap. I think it'd be great to have a faster cast speed or some form of self-quickness generation that negates the laggy swap. Some extra vfx when swapping alliance would be cool.

Edited December 2, 2021 by The Food One.6285