Vindicator Feedback Thread

[Loki.4871]

General stuff:

-The elite spec has very poor CC

 

-As others have mentioned, if you're trying for a damage build reverting to Viktor's support/heal build everytime you mount up or whatnot is quite annoying.

 

-Heals are generally pretty good, but have a massive flaw; the 'little bit of healing over 4 seconds' means as a "Oh dear, I need a quick shot of health" moment usually ends quite badly. The long activation/channel time also means traits that fire when you use a heal (such as the mist dome) don't fire until after it's over. Which could potentially be very helpful if it fired while you were channelling

 

-I actually miss the utility flipping. I know this is even more work, I would like to see an F4 that enables/disables the original skill-flipping.

 

-Someone suggested the dodge-leap have the Vindicator get a mists effect when they jump up, dissappearing before they pop back and slam into the ground.

 

-I still wish the landing from the dodge did a blast finisher.

 

Greatsword:

-Overall it feels better. Coupled with the prior knowledge of knowing Greatsword 5 is actually a pretty decent heavy-hitter, it feels like it's hitting harder overall.

 

--Greatsword 4's blocking audio (specifically, the 'clang' when it successfully blocks and attack) seems too loud, it seems to drown most stuff out.

 

-Audio for attack swings is the same as swords, as I mentioned in a previous post somewhere. The attack sound of the one-handed sword being used for the two-handed sword might be feeding into it feeling underpowered (deciding whether it actually is or isn't requires more time imo)

 

-Greatsword 3's dash is... fine. However, I suggest a more pronnounced mists effect, and it's quite jarring how the character simply stops mid running animation. I suspect this is a code/engine limit.

 

-Greatsword 2's attack animation doesn't really feel like it fits. This may simply be a "Get used to it," however the visual feedback of a 180 degree ground-shatter doesn't really feel like it fits with the swing animation, I keep expecting to so a more forceful/vicious swing.

 

 

-Reaver's Rage

Stability feels like a strange thing to have (you're probably going to pop it after you'd be hit with a cc), but there's also moments where CC gets spammed so... eh. Plus, since it's the vindicator's only CC so it's not unle

 

-Nomad's Advance

The impact radius of 180 means unless everyone is stacked up you're not getting much bonus might, greatly limiting how useful that bonus is. Consider expanding the radius to 360.

 

-Scavenger Burst

Hoo boy, the quickness you can stack up is quite alarming. This is a potential issue down the line, because it means, especially against crowds, you can easily ensure you've got permament quickness. I would reccomend it gets changed to be something more akin to how Impossible Odds got retooled from quickness into something else. I'm mentally picturing Scavenger Burst keeps the initial quickness, but for every extra foe you get... better stamina regen, more damage, damage reduction or something that's not boon duration, because some events in HoT had me clock in with 30s of quickness before I stopped trying to get high quickness duration.

 

-Activation time for Spear of Archemorus is very, very long. Please consider adding a daze and/or reducing the activation time.

 

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I tried a healer/support build and it's pretty damned powerful, I suspect.

 

-Urn of Saint Victor belts out some good healing, however the aura of 240 feels very poor for supporting a party. I would suggest it's expanded to at least 360 while keeping the current healing. The reduced health damage is much better, it's far more useable. When it's deactivated, consider it giving downed allies some health (or even ressurecting) depending on how much damage the player's recieved? It would be better if it ends faster or you can't get interrupted when you're trying to finish it.

I would like there to be a more powerful self heal when you're low health after channelling the urn; in order to stop players cheesing it as a fast heal, have it be tied to the duration you've been channelling. EG, someone who's channelled themselves down from full health to 20% health goes up to 80% health (making the numbers up for the sake of an example), but someone who's just popped it at 20 gets the current healing.

 

-Tree song is a very powerful condi cleanse and, if specc'd, seems to give decent regen. Is the condition removal 5 per character, or 5 total? I reccomend the description gets clarified.

 

-Awakening is great, please don't change this. An area stunbreak that also gives protection? Yes please.

 

-Battledance is... fine. It's decent enough skill, I can't think of anything to complain about. A dodge that makes you and allies immune to snares and gives a bit of healing, it's fine.

 

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Traits

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-Leviathan Strength is fine, no complaints here.

 

-Amnesty of Shing Jea doesn't feel very powerful. I know it's an adept trait, however 1 might (or a little bit of regen) in an area is... eh. Especially thanks to a grandmaster trait I'll get to later.

 

-Redemptor's Sermon

The cooldown feels a bit too long, however for what it does (and it's an adept) it does give a very powerful effect.

 

-Balance in Discord doesn't really feel like a good trait. In my mind's eye the minor traits should ideally work on any build. This one only works when you're swapping between the stances which, as the feedback of the previous patch and implementation shows, people doesn't want to do. I would suggest you pull the "AoE boon when you use an alliance skill" off Amnesty of Shing Jea and place it on here, and give Amnesty of Shing Jea something else. Alternatively, see below.

 

-Reaver's Discourse or Song of Arboreum should, I personally feel, be the minor master trait instead of Balance in Discord. Regardless of your build, Vindicators will be dodging and they will benefit from them.

 

-Angsiyan's Trust has the same problem that Balance of Discord has and, indeed, the entire elite spec now has. Since one stance is for healing and another is for damage, there is very little incentive to switch your stance. Ergo, there's even less incentive to take this trait now you can stay in the stance you actually want.

 

-Empire Divided is fine, imo. Bit more dps when you're 'safe' and a bit more healing when you'll really want it.

 

The changes to the Grandmaster traits is good, and now the jumping is unified. Vassals of the Empire is still massively powerful with diviner/harrier stat stuff though, to the point I think the protection from it undercuts the Sant of Zu Heltzer. A bit more healing power for a few seconds is generally not as useful as damage reduction for at least ten. If Saint of Zu Heltzer gave some health regeneration (either as regen or as a trait 'gain health') or simply had a permanent healing bonus instead, I think it would be more useful. The point you'll want extra healing is usually after a spike or big hit, and with it being tied to the leap you can't truely benefit from the bonus.

Foerunner of Death feels... fine. The 15s duration means you have some time to put the bonus to use.

 

=============

 

Overall I feel it's better; the dodge is not nearly quite the drawback it was, the tweaks to Viktor's stance have improved it, especially the elite. Archemorus's quickness stacking is alarming however, and Nomad's  Advance has an underwhelming might bonus. I still dislike the ashes themselves are what's being channelled, I'd rather they be viktor himself. Or even make the elite for both calling in Vizu for a damage/snare combo. Assests and voices are done though, and this is ultimately cosmetic complaining about the elite.

 

A more foundational problem to me is the thing that make the stance interesting, the flipping between skills, is missing. Now there's essentially 2 elite stances sharing one slot; one or the other could be cut with little impact beyond which one the player's favoured. The utility flipping was undeniably frustrating when a player wished to use specific builds (I found a support vindicator *far easier* this patch) but the option to still have the first beta's implementation would be nice as I mentioned.

The above is only emphasised with the lack of interaction between the two alliance skillsets.

I would, with my ideal vision of the Vindicator, be playing broadly speaking what's in this beta, with an F4 to enable the previous beta's utility skill flipping. When skills are activated, you would get a bonus to using it's 'opposite' (20% stronger effects?) to encourage working with the skill flipping, but have the option to lock the alliance skills, allowing you to sit and focus a specific role if you wish. Effectively, you could play it as this beta, or enable it to be played as the previous beta, with large bonuses to the 'flipped' skills.

A more extreme implemetnation perhaps would be for the skills to use % values of your stats if not above a certain threshold. Something to allow a healing statt'd character to get 'full' benefit of the luxon skills, and kurzick  skills would function vice-versa, allowing a dps build to use the support skills 'properly'.

 

The mastertraits focus far too much on the dodge. If the dodge is proving to be such an issue that people need to trait and use skills to recharge it, one (or even two) of the minor traits should just be changed to make dodging easier, either by taking functionalitry of existing traits or new ones (eg, 33% faster dodge regen) so something more interesting can take their current place.

Some of my more thematic complaints still stand, however I understand that in regards to those little can be changed.

[VladTepes.7042]

My feedback relates exclusively to WvW, as I haven't played other game modes enough to be able to say anything about the Vindicator there.

After playing the Vindicator a lot over the last few days, I lost my initially strong skepticism about this update. The gaming experience was significantly better this time. Not perfect yet, but the direction seems to be right.
Although I hated the dodge-skill in the first (second?) beta, my experience this time was a very different one. I still don't like how many aspects of this spec are focused solely on the dodge or endurance gain, but the three dodges themselves are now a real joy.

F-Skills
The F2 skill is just a required tool for this spec, it has no flavor. Maybe it could also give a weak legend-related effect or buff, but the energy costs should under no circumstances be increased.
Still not sure how i should feel about the F3 Legend swap, but its casting time is unnecessary and hampers the flow of the gameplay.

The Legends
While the legends are fun too and I've enjoyed playing them, besides optimizing numbers, I still see a few things that could be improved.
Archemorus:
I don't have much to complain about here, but a suggestion regarding individual opponents. Maybe Selfish Spirit / Nomag's Advance could work a little more like Scavenger Burst and Reaver's Rage, adding a base heal / base buff so they aren't that much weaker against a single opponent. At the moment i have the feeling that the heal is too situational and the one stack of might from Nomad's Advance is too little when you face a single opponent.
Viktor:
Again, there isn't much to complain about, just a suggestion: While Archemorus Heal not only heals, does damage, deals vulnerability and empowers you, Viktor only heals you and your allies. Maybe add regeneration or a barrier, or even protection, something for this ability to act more like the counterpart of Archemorus heal.

The Elite Skills:
I have no idea why I should use them. Archemorus Spear is to weak and slow and the Urn is not worth the risk and to situational to be usable in bigger fights (where it could have a use). Because of the risks i almost never used the latter.
Just a few thoughts, not to pump up numbers but to make them more useful and add some spice to them:
Spear:
-Let it pierce! This should already be a thing given its powerfull looking build up. Also it is the only skill in Archemorus skill-set that does only hit one foe.
-Add Crippled as soft CC
-Increased damage against enemies in downstate (no idea how that would be usefull in PvE, maybe just more damage there) because I mostly used this skill when I didn't have time to deal with them and wanted to keep them from reviving.
Urn:
I have no real idea for the Urn, so i just use the Idea i had from the spear and mirror it.
-revive allies every pulse, the lower your health is the stronger it gets with a bigger revive when you drop the Urn.

 

Greatsword:
Here, too, I have little to complain about, apart from the reused animations. My only other point of criticism, as others have said, is the small radius / angle in which you hit opponents.  
Maybe you could also add Chilled or Crippled for True Strike or/and increase its damage, right now I feel like it does little damage even if you've blocked all four attacks.

 

Traits
Major Adept:
Leviathan Strength: Nothing special but that's ok
Amnesty of Shing Jea: The best choice for using Alliance-Stance, but nearly useless outside of it.
Redemptor's Sermon: 90s CD in WvW makes it unusable, at least in my eyes
Major Master:
This group could use a little variety. They all basically do the same thing.
Reaver's Curse: Too situational for my taste. You gain only 20 Endurance when you hit 5 targets. Thats it
Angsiyan's Trust:  It requires you to swap Legends as often as possible to make it worthwhile,  also the area of effect is small.
Song of Arboreum: For me the best choice here and the only one that doesn't need anything else to work.
Major Grandmaster:
All three are good to use now, see no way to improve them further and not make them too strong

Edited December 3, 2021 by VladTepes.7042

[Lydradon.3087]

After 4 Days of Testing the "Vindicator 2.0" i can say, that Arenanet improved it a lot compared to the First Beta.

The Reworked Switching of the Utility skills was much needed and makes it now realy Enjoyable to play.

The rebalanced Dodges now have each purpose and viability in different Encounters and are extremly satisfying to use.

Now to the Parts that still need some Improvment and/or a bit Tweaking/Changing:

Starting with the Greatsword:

Phantoms Onslaught: It seems the Skill has some problems with properly propelling the Player the correct distance, either we dont use it correctly yet or the Game doesnt want it to go the Full 900 Range (Needs to be looked into). Also the hidden Mechanic of it that it generates Fury per Hit should be realy listed in the Skillnotes, since its the Number 1 Fury-Generator of the Vindicator. If its a Bug then please dont Remove it, keep it but Balance it properly. 1-2 Seconds of Fury would be enought, per enemy Struck, to fully utilice it for proper Might generation since Incensed Response just needs Fury Procs to work. (Currently it generates around 4 seconds of Fury per Enemy struck with 50% Boonduration.)

Imperial Guard/True Strike: The Block now works properly and the 0.25 seconds Delay for True Strike prevents you from double casting it (Thumbs up, good change) the only thing i would see improved is a bit more Counter Damage and maybe a Stun like Sword Offhand on Mesmers. (Vindicator needs some CC for Defiance Bars.)

Eternity´s Requiem: The skill in Beta 1 was very clunky and unpredictable, but now its just  "Hit 1 Target often and some others Random." If you want to make this skill an Attack that Heavily Damages 1 Target i would suggest to Redesign it into 1 Heavy hit with some wind up time and a Big Stun. Also please switch the Animation to something more Rev like, for Example an Overhead Swing like Ranger Greatsword 2 or a Ground Stomp Like Guardian Greatsword 4.

Onto the Utility Skills:

Selfish/Selfless Spirit: Good Heals a bit Situational, but the Vindicator is made for Big fights, so they Balance themself. Maybe a bit Tweaking to make them a bit stronger.

Nomads Advance/Battle Dance: Good skills, Movement Into or Away From the Enemy, simple and necessary.

Scavenger Burst/Tree Song: The Changes worked fine and now Vindicator can properly generate Fury/Might and Quickness. With my 50% Boonduration build, Scavenger Burst was able to upkeep Might, Fury and Quickness on me for fights with 3 or more Enemies. Treesong is now a very good Choice should you or Companions have problems with Conditions.

Reaver´s Rage/Awakening: Thanks to the Small CC on Reaver´s Rage Vindicators are now able to utilise the Minor Trait Contained Temper properly and generate a good amount of Fury, wich is very important for a Selfsustaining DPS in PvE. Beside from that change the Skills are a good Balanced Self or Team Stunbreak with a good Extra to use offensive for Stability and AoE Damage/Teambuff options.

Finally the Elite Skills:

Spear of Archemorus/ Urn of Saint Viktor: To be called Elite Attacks/Skills these 2 need to be buffed, Spear a bit more then the Urn. As i already stated in my first Feedback for the First Vindicator Beta. Spear of Archemorus needs to be Penetrating and needs a CC (At least 3 Second Stun.) and its a big Spear with a Lot of Time to wind up and Hit, dont be afraid of making it hurt enemies thats what it should do anyway, so give it the treatment it needs and let us show our Enemies that running away is never an option against a Vindicator. For the Urn the Changes made it a lot more Enjoyable to use, you dont kill yourself that fast and if you are low on health you can quicktap it to get some health and boons for yourself and players around you, maybe just pumpt up the numbers a 3000 heal on 25% or below is okay but not worthy of an Elite Skill, maybe give the Baseheal a Buff so its 1-1,5k so we heal for about 6000 Health when we are below 25% that would be just the right amount for a Revenant to be back up above 75% wich is the minimum Treshhold for the Urn.

 

At the End i Thank everyone who took the time to Read trough this Feedback and i hope everyone is Hyped for the Release in February 2022. Thanks to all the Devs who listed to our first Feedback and keep it up. At least I Enjoy it to help you create Elite Specializations that are Viable and Fun to play.

Cheers and Enjoy the Weeks to Come until the Release of End of Dragons.

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, zaswer.5246 said:

i dont think it needs nerfs, i mean if you burst someone unprepared youll delete him, archemorus focuses on dmg so it makes sense to delete people if they do nothing, i have been deleted many times in pvp because of that, that said it is a good elite, needs some improvements in some fields but its good

I weren't using alliance. I was using jalis / shiro with GS+staff. 

Even people trying to escape, if someone teleports when you GS5 it still hits them 😂😂 and most failed to dodge roll it. 

And tbh I ain't highly skilled enough personally to judge how this would work in something like a AT etc etc to say if it'd need nerfing

But the fact like every Anet partner has said it does means I wouldn't be surprised if we get nerfed either way

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Zaret.1450]

2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I weren't using alliance. I was using jalis / shiro with GS+staff. 

Even people trying to escape, if someone teleports when you GS5 it still hits them 😂😂 and most failed to dodge roll it. 

And tbh I ain't highly skilled enough personally to judge how this would work in something like a AT etc etc to say if it'd need nerfing

But the fact like every Anet partner has said it does means I wouldn't be surprised if we get nerfed either way

 

if vindi gets nerfed please do so only in pvp wvw, in pve it needs more dmg

[Puck.3697]

13 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

if vindi gets nerfed please do so only in pvp wvw, in pve it needs more dmg

Yeah if they were gonna do it. It'd have to be PvP exclusive, I hope they are smart if they do nerf it. Outside the burst combo (which does require actually alot of CDs to Do so to a extent justified) the damage it does feels alot lower. 

I dunno how PvE feels. But it feels like almost all vindicators GS damage is loaded all into 5 effectively.. as I say I feel vindi ATM feels like in some places it got it right in others it's still alittle missing. 

GS5 to talk about exclusively is very strong however inside the kit it is I'd argue if it was OP because the rest of the kit feels very balanced around the damage you output with that burst. 

But when u see lots of Anet partners and stuff screeching over its damage it does concern me to what Anet will react with 😂 we saw virtuoso get cut down from a 42k DPS specc to a 34k DPS specc for no reason. 

GS has quite a few much longer CDs so imho it's fine to hit harder and in PvE yeah still missing the mark by abit. But on the bright side they did establish they intend it to be a strong power DPS. So hopefully we will defintly see the buffs it needs in PvE. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Buran.3796]

7 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Rly? I was 1 shotting players with it. 

Jalis taunt into hammers, dodge into gs5 and that's overkill against almost anything.

There's a reason many screech it needs nerfing 😂 the damage is ludicrous high as of current. 

   I had yesterday a fun AT match in which the enemy team had 3 platinum power Heralds. I'll asure you, being the skill level enough,  Vidicator has no chance in PvP against Herald. As vs DH, nothing puts a larger smile in the face of a Infuse Light user than a well telegraphed heavy burst of damage.  Ah, the smell of the napalm in the morning... 

[Infusion.7149]

3 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

if vindi gets nerfed please do so only in pvp wvw, in pve it needs more dmg

36.7K just camping Greatsword. I don't think it's low damage anymore.
37.1k full rotation

You'd have a point if you said Eternity's Requiem is carrying the DPS a bit too hard, it counts for ~20% of damage (~7K DPS in both logs)

Edited December 3, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Buran.3796]

3 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

if vindi gets nerfed please do so only in pvp wvw, in pve it needs more dmg

   But GS already has a huge disparity in cooldowns between PvE and PvP/WvW, where they are way larger, so the main room for a nerf will come in the form of numbers.

[Buran.3796]

18 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

36.7K just camping Greatsword. I don't think it's low damage anymore.
37.1k full rotation

You'd have a point if you said Eternity's Requiem is carrying the DPS a bit too hard, it counts for ~20% of damage (~7K DPS in both logs)

   I would love to see the same dude trying that gainst the veteran Bristleback in the  Desert Borderland , just to put in perspective what will happen in a high level fractal or raid boss when a foe that hits back and can melt your HP in seconds puts his eyes on you after having spent your single evade for the next 10 seconds...

[Infusion.7149]

32 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I would love to see the same dude trying that gainst the veteran Bristleback in the  Desert Borderland , just to put in perspective what will happen in a high level fractal or raid boss when a foe that hits back and can melt your HP in seconds puts his eyes on you after having spent your single evade for the next 10 seconds...

PVE balance does not even have the same coefficients, what does that even have to do with anything. Any endgame group is going to run a healer and will be spamming aegis in fractals right now. If people can play thief and ele , then vindicator is not an issue especially since that bench runs Jalis.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Zaret.1450]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

36.7K just camping Greatsword. I don't think it's low damage anymore.
37.1k full rotation

You'd have a point if you said Eternity's Requiem is carrying the DPS a bit too hard, it counts for ~20% of damage (~7K DPS in both logs)

the pve dmg is mostly tested by snow crows on golems because pve is mostly raid and fractals or strikes, open world is just irrelevant, on that enviroment a 37,5k dps that needs a huge hitbox as vindi needs because of gs5 is not a great dps moreso when it needs more cc to be truly competitive against other dps builds, if most dps builds had 37k dmg then id be fine but you have clases with 34k and classes with more than 40k, vindi isnt bad but if it got to 38~39k in medium or small hirboxes and big ones just increased it to 40k, thatd be the perfect thing, renegade also needs huge hitbox to do dmg and is relegated to be an alac suport, while herald is rarely seen in pve and shines in pvp wvwim not asking for 60k or 50 like cata is doing, but something neutral so revenant is not a suport class with a mediocre power build as it has been till now

[Infusion.7149]

8 minutes ago, zaswer.5246 said:

the pve dmg is mostly tested by snow crows on golems because pve is mostly raid and fractals or strikes, open world is just irrelevant, on that enviroment a 37,5k dps that needs a huge hitbox as vindi needs because of gs5 is not a great dps moreso when it needs more cc to be truly competitive against other dps builds, if most dps builds had 37k dmg then id be fine but you have clases with 34k and classes with more than 40k, vindi isnt bad but if it got to 38~39k in medium or small hirboxes and big ones just increased it to 40k, thatd be the perfect thing, renegade also needs huge hitbox to do dmg and is relegated to be an alac suport, while herald is rarely seen in pve and shines in pvp wvwim not asking for 60k or 50 like cata is doing, but something neutral so revenant is not a suport class with a mediocre power build as it has been till now

What happened to punctuation?

GS5 has guaranteed 5 hits. So unless you think that it will hit only the guaranteed hits it isn't going to be a huge problem, it would still be more DPS than power renegade / power daredevil / power chrono. In the benchmark it was cast 9 times hitting 117 times, meaning on average 13 hits per cast out of 14 possible. With 5 hits only it would drop to around 33K.

You're not running power in fractals in the current meta anyway. The power favored fights usually have large hitbox (Keep Construct , Samarog, Conjured Amalgamate for example).

Edited December 4, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Kidel.2057]

If anet wants Vindicator to be a viable heal support for PvE, it has to bring some "rare" boons or unique buffs, otherwise it will simply be overshadowed by existing specs. Vindicators heal is really nice, but sadly that is not enough for the current meta.

[Angesombre.4630]

This will surely be modified for the release but when we see that the cat hits hard and can put Quickness in almost perma, this revenant is almost a joke in what it can do. There are some ideas and things that I like, I don't want to spit on everything, if we compare with the other specials of the revenant. 

The renegat can give good buffs to many people, making a good support via alac which is still its main buffs for groups. 

The herauld gives buffs which does not allow him to make a big HL content to my knowledge, I speak vis a vis a group to be interesting.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Didn't get to play in this beta as much as I would have liked, but nonetheless I would like to provide some feedback on support Vindicator as the vast majority of the feedback is in regards to how it performs in a DPS role.

 

For context: I main Rev and have probably over 6k hours on the class. I spent a significant amount of hours on Vindi during the previous beta but only about 6-8 hours this time around. I played this exclusively in WvW this time around in small- to medium-scale unorganized fights. Sadly the quality of content was seriously lacking each time I was on. This time around I stuck to Jalis/Alliance Minstrel/Monk Staff/GS with Invo/Salv/Vindi.

 

 

Some initial thoughts:

 

It is very fun to play as a support. While still not on the level of Firebrand or Scrapper, I really enjoyed myself the entire time and felt like I was making a strong impact in every fight I was in. The cleanse and healing potential is absolutely massive. To be honest, it feels like a more successful and simplified version of Ventari. Although I love playing with the tablet, it was nice to get more reliable healing, better self-defense, better cleanse, while still being able to run Jalis for the roads and RotGDs. The energy costs and cooldowns are both very low which makes it feel a bit like old-school Rev. With that said, it is not perfect, so I would like to provide some critiques as well. 

 

Tree Song is fantastic. Being able to cleanse such large amounts from so far away is very powerful. The healing per cleanse is also extremely potent, but this is the spec's only way to heal from range, and is conditional upon the number of condis on the ally.

 

Battle Dance feels much better in this iteration. Much smoother than it was previously, but this skill does admittedly feel a bit like filler. While truly nice to have an on-demand evade to make up for the dodges costing 100 endurance, it doesn't feel like it carries too much impact. I would suggest the following additions: 

* Replace the regen with swiftness. Regen is everywhere in this spec and it feels a bit overkill here, to be honest. Swiftness is nowhere on the spec and can only be accessed via blasting Jalis roads.

* Add AoE blind. I have thought perhaps Aegis would be appropriate, but that is likely stepping too much on the toes of Guardian.

 

Awakening is just wonderful. Can't tell you how nice it is to have an AoE stunbreak. Personally I don't think this skill needs any changes.

 

Selfless Spirit may feel weak when playing solo, but when actually utilized as an AoE heal, the 10s cooldown is a massive benefit. Only complaint is that is has a rather small radius. I would like to see it increased to 300 or 360 radius.

 

Urn of Saint Viktor. What a controversial skill this is. Seems like most people hate it but I personally love it. I actually don't have an issue with it damaging me over time OR with it stopping all incoming healing. It is a fair enough drawback. My issue is the fact that Slam Urn has a cast time. While I do understand the intent behind it, it makes the drawback exponentially more dangerous when you have a skill that is slowly killing you that is ALSO extremely prone to being interrupted from turning off. While I appreciate the thought behind it, I think it should be removed. Rev also continues to be the only class that has no rez trait or skill. Urn is the perfect opportunity to implement this. I propose the following:

* Rework the functionality of Slam Urn. Move it from the toggle-off skill to a passive benefit that is gained from completing a dodge while Urn is active. Why? It makes the skill much less of a liability to use while still maintaining its drawback, and also ties in the new dodging mechanic into the new legend. Additionally, you are also literally slamming the ground when you dodge, so the idea of it also slamming the urn is not far-fetched. Keep in mind this would not toggle off the skill; the toggle off would simply function like any other core legend upkeep skill. This would function like a pseudo-Embrace the Darkness.

* Add a rez functionality to the new slam mechanic (Slammimg the urn on downed allies revives them by X%).

* Increase the upkeep cost to -7 or -8. With this added benefit, the increased cost would be very much justified. Honestly -5 feels too low.

 

 

 

Part 2 of this critique is going to be in regards to the vision of the elite spec, and especially the Alliance Stance. While the new F3 functionality is a buff to the playstyles I was choosing, it feels like a major bandaid solution for a larger issue. The stance doesn't feel well integrated into itself. It feels like 2 legends with their skills turned into their inverse (damage to healing, vice versa) without much thought into how they actually play together.

 

Playing support, I have almost zero reason to swap into Archemorus, and I can't help but feel like that takes away from the vision and intention of the spec. The legend fills 2 roles individually, but it greatly lacks cohesion. It feels half-baked and like an ambitious idea was given up on in order to settle for something that is more simple, but also disjointed. Unlike Saint Viktor, I really did not like the way Archemorus felt. The skills generally feel a bit uninspired and the one that is that is the most interesting and unique (Spear of Archemorus) is also incredibly undertuned and impractical. I want to actually *want* to weave between the two sub-legends, but I don't find there to be any incentive to, especially when playing as a support. Now if I am left with a support spec that I can play that is effective, I am happy regardless, but I would argue that such is not a sign of an actually successfully executed and mechanically interesting spec. Granted, I think Renegade was also a major fail on many levels and am happier with Vindicator.

 

 

In conclusion: I am grateful that I can salvage what I see as a very potent support build out of this elite spec, but I still think the overall *vision* of the e-spec really misses the mark.

Edited December 4, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908
Sorry for the horrible formatting. Mobile failed me

[Krillaklise.9461]

Just a thought. I see (and agree) with the general idea that the dodging could feasibly be given another bar. And that the flow between legends can be clunky....

 

Crazy thought here. What if we did have access to a secondary dodge, BUT, dodging swapped alliance skills? I did say crazy.

 

Maybe it sorts out both of these things (along with some slight reworks, hard cc, chill pretty please?) 

But it does provide a source of flow between the alliance sides, sorts out the want for the extra dodge, and from a balance stand point we have now to consciously decide wether the dodge is worth the swap etc.

[Mortigan.6583]

First post since beta, to say this : "CAST TIME"

Removes all the satisfaction

Edited December 4, 2021 by Mortigan.6583

[Thon.3780]

In my only opinion, if I I made assumptions of each elite is car 

vindicator is 400HP car with small fuel tank 100L  it can use many skill with few cd so energy with runout fast 

ren is 200 HP  with 200 L

Herald is 100 HP with 400 L   Energy is plenty

 

Honestly speak it play more smooth compare to first beta but I just want some adjustments  if possible to make vindicator more attractive to pick and play.

1Imperial guards : I just need block time increase from 2 sec to 2.5 sec or the best is 3 sec.  so I will play smooth when combo with eternity requiem with use 1 sec to activate. Coz it seem heavy damage finish move is eternity’s. Also it can increase   Survive chance for o.5sec

 

2 eternity requiem. Overall seem better . I just need cripple effect 2 sec to be added. So this skill can use as pressure skill  or finish move.

 

3 elite skill . Spear. As I see now it suit for

     WvW. .  Siege equipment breaker.   
                    Zerg in big group . So you have time to use skill. Some may use as opening

      PvE or fractual .  It can use if you play long range support heal and switch Ally some time for atk.

      I am not sure it already implement or not but I need some add on

  1. Add cripple / slow/ knockdown/ or chill . So it can use not onlY snipe but pressure skill too.

2. If it has same function as bloodband path ( hit mark target when you don’t see it) , it will be good . Coz you can use both offend and while retreating .  However I am not sure it will be overpowered or not.

 

      

 

 

[Kyniel.4706]

My diagnosis on Vindicator - largely great, a lot of fun but the impact of some of the LA skills is lacking. I think the reason is as follows.

The idea of a "selfish/selfish" split between Archemorus and Saint Viktor is interesting but is in conflict with another dichotomy - damage/support. I really like the idea of an ebb and flow that sees us switching into Archemorus to do big damage, then retreating with Viktor to recover before launching our next onslaught. To me, this should be the focus of the middle trait line (top and bottom are for specialising in damage/support respectively)

Specifically, the middle trait line should be about making Archemorus less selfish and Viktor less selfless. We see a little of this with the middle Adept trait which sees Archemorus splashing out Might to allies (less selfish) but it adds regen splashing to Viktor (more selfless) - perhaps it should instead give a self support (heal?/regen?/aegis?) on all Viktor skills. If there was a trait to add some more selfish support to the Saint Viktor skills, I think this interesting "ebb and flow" playstyle would work nicely, but as it stands Viktor is just too weak in solo environments to be of any use. I suspect this is in large part why people wanted the ability to stay in Archemorus indefinitely.

tldr Let the middle trait line give Viktor more selfish support to make it relevant in solo situations.

[Rym.1469]

Random idea on how to make the Spear elite more enticing and add DPS for PvE:

Remove Torment. The Spear elite could have a flipover - first press has the full Energy cost and makes Archemorus lean back, charging the attack for a maximum of few seconds. While charging, % of your damage done is added to the total damage of the Spear (that part can or can't crit). Flipover releases the Spear prematurely after the minimum delay (like right now). 

So essentially quite similar to Zed's R in LoL or Gale Burst of WoW Windwalker in Legion. 

So the gameplay would be: Start charging the spear, do as much damage as you can in the timeframe (including AoE) and a portion of it is funneled into the big payoff of a massive Spear hit.

This achieves few things:

1. It makes the Elite more interesting, fun to use and play around

2. It increases PvE DPS and provides potentially big burst + makes Vindicator strong in situations where it can funnel it's cleave damage into single target (like Boomkins fuel resource generation)

3. It saves the existing traits from being turnt into damage modifiers, placing the damage modifier you want to play around on the elite itself. 

 

 

[Aeolus.3615]

Urn of Saint victor is still useless, this skill makes no sense it doesnt help in anything, heavy hits from players will one shot u even with all that damage reducer so its a self kill button its like asking to the enemy"kill me please".

Vindicator F2 is lackluster makes no sense imo.

Pve wise some damage leaps were doing 20k hits crits, some hits 8k on gs2 and 9k to 5k with gs5.

Spear of Arch needs torment removed and make a 100% crit chance to get decent damage 2k-3k for a elite skills is weak imo that can be dodged or kited if target is moving faster.

 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Whitemar.8759]

This class seems very well balance, in pvp and wvw definitely feels good with offensive and defensive, takes awhile to get use to the new dodge mechanic, healing ability is interesting with the damage part of it as well. I feel out of most classes this one seems to be well polished and you all have done a very good job with this spec.

[Silesium.5623]

Skills lacking/copy animation. (mostly utiltys)

Elita skills:  

Spear of Archemorus need torment removed and increase dmg (add some cc) or make chain with Archemours and add second skill that pull target to it thats add new mechanic and strategy. 
Urn of Saint Viktor still bit bugy dont always drop. The concpet was good the finish bad skill need re-work : idea : when used the urn show up and give only dmg/cdmg reduction 50% its take, 5- pip degeneration, new mechanic every time get hit/time % grow till hit 100% urn will explodes (aoe heal) and summen 1-3 spirit that vampire hp back to you on hit, if drop earlyer 30%=1 70%=2 100%=3. I think that balanced as u gain no energy when hold the urn but in return give u some suport when u reach some of %

Edited December 4, 2021 by Silesium.5623

[Ausar.9542]

anybody come up with a good PvP build with Greatsword? I am struggling to make it work