Vindicator Feedback Thread

[Katary.7096]

My feedback in regards to the Vindicator from the 4th beta event:

Traits

Saint of zu Heltzer: The duration of the buff appllied by this trait is significantly shorter than it's "Forerunner of Death" counterpart. I would like to see the duration increased at least somewhat.

Forerunner of Death: The "Death Drop" skill could use a bit more damage output in PvE, considering the lengthy "cast time" required to activate it. I do like that all of the different dodges now have the same duration, which is why I am not suggesting a shortening of the dodge window to address this.

Leviathan Strength:  This trait in combination with "Forerunner of Death" effectively means that the gameplay of the Vindicator build is going to have to work without the benefit of the dodge mechanic as the primary defensive element. I suggest that "Leviathan Strength" should additionally increase movement speed by 25% if endurance is not full to help with positioning, which is going to be more important as a defensive measure for a build with no defensive dodge.

The major Master tier traits: All 3 of these options have the same goal, to generate bonus endurance. As such the trait choice in this tier is not about what you want a build to do but rather how it does it. While I do believe that that is still valuable for the personalization of a character I would like to see at least 1 of the traits in this tier to provide a benefit other than "more endurance".

Legend Skills

Spear of Archemorus: This skill has an identical power coefficient to "Nomad's Advance", an ability that is a 900 range leap, can hit up to 5 targets and grants Might. Meanwhile the single target elite skill nuke can boast an impressive 2000 range and the fact that it inflicts Torment, on an elite specialization which offers almost no support for condition damage in general. I would like to see an increase to the offensive potential of this skill. In my opinion it would be pretty cool if the projectile were to leave a fire trail on the ground similar to the "Mordrem Guard Sniper" enemy type from HoT. But I concede that simply raising the power coefficient would get the job done as well.

Visually the spirit of Archemorus is facing the same way that the Vindicator does when they are casting this skill. I think it makes more sense for the spirit to face the target at which the spear is thrown.

Urn of Saint Viktor: I do not like this skill, but I have no idea what to do with it either. Perhaps it needs more boons, maybe it needs better boons. I think it being an upkeep skill is fine, but I am not sure that the special benefits and drawbacks of "charging" it are helping much.

Greatsword Skills

Greatsword #1 Chain: The hitboxes for these skills do not overlap with the actual weapon swing. The area that is being hit by the Vindicator is much more narrow than what the visuals suggest, which creates the puzzling situation in which the greatsword clearly moves through an enemy's model without that enemy being hit. Please increase the size of the hitboxes to better align with the movements of the character.

Greatsword #2 Mist Unleashed: This might just be me not knowing English well enough, but isn't "Mists Unleashed" a better name for a Revenant skill? This ability has the same character animation as a part of the skill #1 chain "Mist Swing". I do fully understand that for example Warrior, Guardian and Vindicator all share the same set of animations for skill #1 chains when they swing a greatsword in melee range but I am disappointed to see the exact same animations being reused for multiple skills of Vindicator's manageable set of 8 greatsword abilities.

Greatsword #3 Phantom's Onslaught: This skill seems to move a distance of roughly 300 range if no target is selected or if the selected target is further than 900 range away. The skill's description does not mention such a behavior, so I assume that this is a bug.

Greatsword #4 Imperial Guard/ True Strike: I would like to see "True Strike" apply a hard crowd control effect if at least 1 attack has been blocked by "Imperial Guard". Maybe the duration of the CC effect could scale up based on the number of blocked attacks? The animation for the weapon swing on "True Strike" is the same as "Mist Slash". I do fully understand that for example Warrior, Guardian and Vindicator all share the same set of animations for skill #1 chains when they swing a greatsword in melee range but I am disappointed to see the exact same animations being reused for multiple skills of Vindicator's manageable set of 8 greatsword abilities.

Greatsword #5 Eternity's Requiem: This ability already has safeguards built into it to prevent it's performance to differ too drastically between targets with small and large hitboxes, but it is still considerably more powerful against large hitbox targets than small hitbox targets. I suggest to reduce the baseline damage output of this skill slightly and move the lost damage over to greatsword skills #2 & #3 to ensure a more coherent performance across different target sizes. These changes may or may not make sense for the competitive game modes. Additionally I would like it if each hit of "Eternity's Requiem" were to inflict 1 stack of low duration (~5 seconds) vulnerability on the target.

Thank you for reading.

[Kain Francois.4328]

I really want to stress that Vindicator needs some way of coping with boss mechanics. Even turning F2 into a simple dodge, like Willbender, would be a lot more useful than it is now.

[babak.3654]

I had some chance to play with Vindicator. The impression I get is that someone at Anet was very into the concept of the legendary alliance of Archemorus and St Viktor and stuck with it even when it was hard to translate into gameplay. The flip over skills of beta 1 made me feel like I was playing some kind of matching pairs mini game. In beta 2 we’re flipping between 3 legends with F1 and F3. I’m not sure either feels right but at least the current system is easier to keep track of.

 

It’s notable that both heals and both elites are not working well and both need buffing or in the case of the urn another look altogether. 
 

I quite like the great sword implementation. I think GS2 needs more range, and I’m having a hard time overlooking the reuse of the gravedigger animation on GS5. It’s been unique to reaper for so long that seeing it here always looks wrong to me. 
 

My overall impression is that despite reservations about having two legends this is one of the better specs as of beta 2. 

[Duke Blackrose.4981]

So here's some changes I'd like to see.

 

Greatsword

 

Eternity's Requiem - add a quarter-second Daze to each hit.

 

True Strike - add Weakness for synergy with Jalis/Retribution.

 

St. Viktor

 

Battle Dance - Add Resolution to the boons for synergy with Jalis/Retribution.

 

Urn of St Viktor - Change to summon St. Viktor, who taunts surrounding foes, takes the damage for you, and heals in the area when the duration ends.

 

Traits

 

Reaver's Curse - Change to increased Power while under the effects of Vigor. Gain 7% of your Power as Ferocity.

 

Angsiyan's Trust - Gain increased Expertise and Concentration while under the effects of Vigor. Gain 7% of your Power as Concentration.

 

Song of Arboreum -  Change effect to increased Healing Power while under the effects of Vigor. Gain 7% of your Power as Healing Power.

 

Empire Divided - Change to be the old effect of Song of Arboreum, and rename to Will of Two. I feel like this effect is so important to the functioning of the spec that it has to be a minor trait.

[Superluigi.1062]

My feedback for the vindicator is exclusively focused on the Power DPS build for PvE content like Raids and Fractals since that is the main content I play. I have no idea about the state of vindicator in PvP/WvW.

 

Greatsword - The Greatsword for the vindicator feels good to use, I only have 2 smaller problems with the weapon skills:

1. It is somewhat disappointing that the Skills Mist Unleashed (Skill 2) and True Strike (Skill 4 after activating the                  block) use the same character animation as the first or second skill of the auto attack chain.
2. The cooldown of Eternity's Requiem (Skill 5) is in my opinion a little too long so there is an awkward pause, when trying to do the DPS rotation.

Dodge Mechanic - The Dodge mechanic on vindicator is more fun to use after the changes for beta 4 but I still don't really like it.

Since the damage buffs from Leviathan Strength and Forerunner of Death are mandatory to keep up competetive DPS, you are almost forced to use your dodge as soon as your endurance is full. This leads to gameplay, where you don't have the ability to dodge when you need to dodge attacks, but instead just dodge to deal damage.

To fix this, I would propose either 

1. that the vindicator gets some sort of defensive ability on the f2 - f5 buttons to substitute the missing dodge roll.
2. to move the current dodge to f2 - f5 and use normal dodge rolls instead.
3. that the endurance worked like any other classes endurance , so that you have 100 max endurance and 50 endurance per dodge and the related effects are balanced accordingly.

 

Alliance Legend - The new legend is fine to use in a DPS build after the change in beta 4. The damage from the elite skill Spear of Archemorus seems a little weaker than the animation would suggest and the torment on the skill just feels out of place since the vindicator doesn't seem to support condition damage at all.

 

I think the vindicator is usable as a power DPS build with a nice amount of burst damage in endgame PvE, but right now it has too little consistent damage to really justify playing a spec, that does not have a dodge and only a small amount of defiance bar damage without giving up too much damage. 

 

Overall the vindicator only needs a (small) damage buff and some way to mitigate attacks and it will become a great Power DPS option in endgame PvE.

[Kain Francois.4328]

4 hours ago, Duke Blackrose.4981 said:

Urn of St Viktor - Change to summon St. Viktor, who taunts surrounding foes, takes the damage for you, and heals in the area when the duration ends.

 

I agree. It's not fair that Archemorus gets a kitten luxon throwing a spear made out of his own bones at foes, while Viktor is just his dead ashes that belong in the ground.

[Angesombre.4630]

The legend was originally created with the reversal, which made sense in itself, but it still had its flaws. Lack of DPS and lack of buffs with allies but with the gameplay of the beta of November this lack is even more felt, because if you play one of the 2 roles you feel the lack of these 2 specializations that should be complementary.

We have 2 legends who have a role but they only do the job halfway.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Angesombre.4630

[BlackSheep.2195]

It looks perfect for me, the new elite spec more complete. I have only two suggestions.

• Give the dodge a new utility, allowing it to transit through higher terrains.
• Legendary Alliance elite skills needs a final adjust, Spear of Archemorus looks awesome I only think it needs a stun to become more epic to an elite skill.  Urn of Saint Viktor is interesting but a elite skill that punish user isn't a elite skill, removing the damage taken, it would be more legendary.

[floppypuppy.5789]

Here is feedback for everything except PvE:

1. There are greatsword bugs (already pointed out by many)
2. This class is very strong and has great breadth, it does not need "more" of anything except maybe polish.
3. I love the dps/heal hybrid idea and I hope it gets preserved in spite of the very loud DPS ONLY mentality.
4. I liked the old alliance switching design that forced you to play both sides, but the current design is good too.
5. The blue alliance skills in particular are extremely strong on zero healing power builds, high base numbers on these skills is important imo.
6. Most people make poor use of the elite skills, expecting waaaay too much considering their cooldown and expense.  The Urn in particular is great when you get the hang of it, never get rid of the movement speed boost or incoming damage reduction.  Please don't change this skill because of widespread L2P issues.  

Overall vidicator feels solid and fun to play.

[Buran.3796]

   They should fix the Phantom's Onslaught tooltip correctly displaying "Range: 450". Also work in the animation for Norn and Human/Silvari for that skill: the charge looks a lot better in the Charr and Asura races than in the other ones.

[Jthug.9506]

Everything is great except spear of archamorus which misses the target almost always if they move at all especially at longer ranges, why can’t it be homing? 
 

GS5 is possibly overperforming, but pve dps is in a good spot, please be careful if you decide to tone down any skills like GS5 that they are either split or have their cooldowns and energy costs reduced to try to keep from hurting pve performance.

 

Some have asked for cc on GS skills, I would personally not like that except maybe on gs3 as I would hate to loose damage in competitive formats. Perhaps consider immobilize instead?

[Matt H.6142]

Beta 2 - I got a lot of confused emojis when I said this was the best of the beta.  That was true until I took it into WvW.  Felt like a sitting duck without a dodge and alliance skills on cooldown.

Beta 4 - Much better without the mixing of alliance skills.  Had some incredible sustain in WvW group fights.

[Howluffu.7259]

I will put it simple:

-1 more dodge in PvE.

-A lil bit more dmg in gs autoattacks.

-An elite skill that doesnt suck kitten.

-more CC(maybe in the elite archemorus skill)

-F2 utility(maybe quickness maybe alac or......maybe distortion if we can't have 2 dodges)

 

I won't mention the dodge animation and long time cuz I see a lot of people like it(I don't) but the rest seems Gucci 🙂

Keep up the work, rev devs enthusiasms! 👍

[Angesombre.4630]

I would like it to be more useful in group PVE because for the moment there is only the renegat with the alac. because if in the end we just use the mechanics and not the legend I don't see the advantage. Same for the gs.

[Howluffu.7259]

11 hours ago, Superluigi.1062 said:

that the vindicator gets some sort of defensive ability on the f2 - f5 buttons to substitute the missing dodge roll.

 

Overall the vindicator only needs a (small) damage buff and some way to mitigate attacks and it will become a great Power DPS option in endgame PvE.

I have a moment of clarity and I throw this: DISTORSION.

F2 is a distorsion button ala mesmer distorsion but maybe more misty mist flavoured. This distortion only has the i-frames of a regular dodge so you can use it as an actual dodge and leave the dodge to do sum dmg and tactics.

 

 

Or.......have a normal dodge and the F2 does the "Doomfist Meteor Strike" dodge style.

 

Both options seems perfect to me to polish this messy coolish e-spec.

[QuinQuin.9136]

So far, aside from what some have already pointed out, my main problem I have with this spec is how your Shift Evade can be interrupted by certain attacks in the game. To me this is an interesting problem and may or may not be worth changing depending on everyone's perspective. I'm interested in seeing how everyone feels about this.
To me, considering the cost of using this skill and how integral it is to the Spec and how it plays, I think it may be worth being looked into. Also, sidebar: I'm jumping high into the clouds. You'd think, from the animation alone, a lot of things wouldn't affect you from the ground. 😅

I personally think I could be changed in one of 3 ways:

Way 1: Make the Shift Evade fully invincible until the animation ends.
This is likely a bit too overbearing for the ability and how the game works, but it's on the table.

Way 2: Add some for of immunity to prevent the skill from being cancelled, but continue to allow certain other effects apply that do not get affected by the Evade status
I don't know if this is something that is possible to do with how the game functions, but I'll still suggest it.

Way 3: Refund the endurance used when the Shift Evade gets cancelled.

This sees like the most sensible and straightforward way of going about this. Even half of a refund would be nice.

 

 

Also, one glaring issue I have is that oftentimes the duration and animation and the execution of the Shift Evade doesn't properly line up correctly. What I mean is that there are times where my Shift Evade hasn't fully ended yet, and I don't get the effects of the dodge/landing, but I can still be hit with some form of CC or damage, and I can also accidentally cancel it by buffering my heal skill to be used right as I land, effectively burning my entire meter with nothing to show for it. This should be addressed.

[Jthug.9506]

22 hours ago, Katary.7096 said:

My feedback in regards to the Vindicator from the 4th beta event:

Traits

Saint of zu Heltzer: The duration of the buff appllied by this trait is significantly shorter than it's "Forerunner of Death" counterpart. I would like to see the duration increased at least somewhat.

Forerunner of Death: The "Death Drop" skill could use a bit more damage output in PvE, considering the lengthy "cast time" required to activate it. I do like that all of the different dodges now have the same duration, which is why I am not suggesting a shortening of the dodge window to address this.

Leviathan Strength:  This trait in combination with "Forerunner of Death" effectively means that the gameplay of the Vindicator build is going to have to work without the benefit of the dodge mechanic as the primary defensive element. I suggest that "Leviathan Strength" should additionally increase movement speed by 25% if endurance is not full to help with positioning, which is going to be more important as a defensive measure for a build with no defensive dodge.

The major Master tier traits: All 3 of these options have the same goal, to generate bonus endurance. As such the trait choice in this tier is not about what you want a build to do but rather how it does it. While I do believe that that is still valuable for the personalization of a character I would like to see at least 1 of the traits in this tier to provide a benefit other than "more endurance".

Legend Skills

Spear of Archemorus: This skill has an identical power coefficient to "Nomad's Advance", an ability that is a 900 range leap, can hit up to 5 targets and grants Might. Meanwhile the single target elite skill nuke can boast an impressive 2000 range and the fact that it inflicts Torment, on an elite specialization which offers almost no support for condition damage in general. I would like to see an increase to the offensive potential of this skill. In my opinion it would be pretty cool if the projectile were to leave a fire trail on the ground similar to the "Mordrem Guard Sniper" enemy type from HoT. But I concede that simply raising the power coefficient would get the job done as well.

Visually the spirit of Archemorus is facing the same way that the Vindicator does when they are casting this skill. I think it makes more sense for the spirit to face the target at which the spear is thrown.

Urn of Saint Viktor: I do not like this skill, but I have no idea what to do with it either. Perhaps it needs more boons, maybe it needs better boons. I think it being an upkeep skill is fine, but I am not sure that the special benefits and drawbacks of "charging" it are helping much.

Greatsword Skills

Greatsword #1 Chain: The hitboxes for these skills do not overlap with the actual weapon swing. The area that is being hit by the Vindicator is much more narrow than what the visuals suggest, which creates the puzzling situation in which the greatsword clearly moves through an enemy's model without that enemy being hit. Please increase the size of the hitboxes to better align with the movements of the character.

Greatsword #2 Mist Unleashed: This might just be me not knowing English well enough, but isn't "Mists Unleashed" a better name for a Revenant skill? This ability has the same character animation as a part of the skill #1 chain "Mist Swing". I do fully understand that for example Warrior, Guardian and Vindicator all share the same set of animations for skill #1 chains when they swing a greatsword in melee range but I am disappointed to see the exact same animations being reused for multiple skills of Vindicator's manageable set of 8 greatsword abilities.

Greatsword #3 Phantom's Onslaught: This skill seems to move a distance of roughly 300 range if no target is selected or if the selected target is further than 900 range away. The skill's description does not mention such a behavior, so I assume that this is a bug.

Greatsword #4 Imperial Guard/ True Strike: I would like to see "True Strike" apply a hard crowd control effect if at least 1 attack has been blocked by "Imperial Guard". Maybe the duration of the CC effect could scale up based on the number of blocked attacks? The animation for the weapon swing on "True Strike" is the same as "Mist Slash". I do fully understand that for example Warrior, Guardian and Vindicator all share the same set of animations for skill #1 chains when they swing a greatsword in melee range but I am disappointed to see the exact same animations being reused for multiple skills of Vindicator's manageable set of 8 greatsword abilities.

Greatsword #5 Eternity's Requiem: This ability already has safeguards built into it to prevent it's performance to differ too drastically between targets with small and large hitboxes, but it is still considerably more powerful against large hitbox targets than small hitbox targets. I suggest to reduce the baseline damage output of this skill slightly and move the lost damage over to greatsword skills #2 & #3 to ensure a more coherent performance across different target sizes. These changes may or may not make sense for the competitive game modes. Additionally I would like it if each hit of "Eternity's Requiem" were to inflict 1 stack of low duration (~5 seconds) vulnerability on the target.

Thank you for reading.

Please don’t put cc on gs, and if you must, put it on gs3 although it would be better if it were immmob than hard cc.

[Shao.7236]

Don't scrap the idea of skill flipping. The current design is really boring and doesn't feel like anything new.

 

Make skillflips be on demand after using a skill by pressing it again, under 3 seconds at most. If not pressed, the last skill used should remain and be used again.

 

Overhaul F3 and F4 to set respectively Archemorus and Saint Viktor to their entire utilities with both under a 10 seconds cooldown, make them grant offensive and defensive boons on use as well so that they're not completely pointless when dedicated to one of the Luxons.

 

Give the best of both worlds to your players so that we can have camping and hybrid as a choice, making the elite interesting and not just another set of utility to mash on.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Jthug.9506]

I’m actually against skill flipping at this time, being able to continually use scavenger burst in pve feels really nice and I don’t want to give that up. If they made it optional as you suggest I would be ok with it.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Elric.4713]

Find the intruder:
https://imgur.com/dQ6bsYh

I'm of the opinion that the whole Vindicator UI is lazily done.

[Jthug.9506]

23 hours ago, Superluigi.1062 said:

My feedback for the vindicator is exclusively focused on the Power DPS build for PvE content like Raids and Fractals since that is the main content I play. I have no idea about the state of vindicator in PvP/WvW.

 

Greatsword - The Greatsword for the vindicator feels good to use, I only have 2 smaller problems with the weapon skills:

1. It is somewhat disappointing that the Skills Mist Unleashed (Skill 2) and True Strike (Skill 4 after activating the                  block) use the same character animation as the first or second skill of the auto attack chain.
2. The cooldown of Eternity's Requiem (Skill 5) is in my opinion a little too long so there is an awkward pause, when trying to do the DPS rotation.

Dodge Mechanic - The Dodge mechanic on vindicator is more fun to use after the changes for beta 4 but I still don't really like it.

Since the damage buffs from Leviathan Strength and Forerunner of Death are mandatory to keep up competetive DPS, you are almost forced to use your dodge as soon as your endurance is full. This leads to gameplay, where you don't have the ability to dodge when you need to dodge attacks, but instead just dodge to deal damage.

To fix this, I would propose either 

1. that the vindicator gets some sort of defensive ability on the f2 - f5 buttons to substitute the missing dodge roll.
2. to move the current dodge to f2 - f5 and use normal dodge rolls instead.
3. that the endurance worked like any other classes endurance , so that you have 100 max endurance and 50 endurance per dodge and the related effects are balanced accordingly.

 

Alliance Legend - The new legend is fine to use in a DPS build after the change in beta 4. The damage from the elite skill Spear of Archemorus seems a little weaker than the animation would suggest and the torment on the skill just feels out of place since the vindicator doesn't seem to support condition damage at all.

 

I think the vindicator is usable as a power DPS build with a nice amount of burst damage in endgame PvE, but right now it has too little consistent damage to really justify playing a spec, that does not have a dodge and only a small amount of defiance bar damage without giving up too much damage. 

 

Overall the vindicator only needs a (small) damage buff and some way to mitigate attacks and it will become a great Power DPS option in endgame PvE.

I think you can get evades on the Luxon side if needed, same with shiro and s/s3, but I see your point that if you happen to be in a part of your rotation where energy is low, you might have a problem. Also I believe most boss mechanics can actually be blocked rather than dodged with few exceptions, so GS4 would get you out of most trouble. And if you find you actually suddenly really need a genuine dodge like for cairn’s arm attack, you can energy meld and hopefully get there in time. Otherwise maybe it would be appropriate to add a zero energy cost f skill with some evade frames as a panic button, perhaps on a 20-30s cd?

[Jthug.9506]

1 hour ago, Elric.4713 said:

Find the intruder:
https://imgur.com/dQ6bsYh

I'm of the opinion that the whole Vindicator UI is lazily done.

I guess it is odd that they broke the color scheme with the light blue instead of more red and gray, but it's nice looking I think.

 

Also the animation budget apparently went almost entirely to the dodge and the spear, which is actually a problem because in pvp people would probably have appreciated unique tells for the various skills. It’s just possible that they will add unique animations in the future I suppose.
 

I do sympathize somewhat because any unique animations that they added to GS would have required possibly adding additional unique animations to the gen2 legendary great sword  as well and that may have been a difficult or even nearly impossible task.

Edited December 7, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Elric.4713 said:

Find the intruder:
https://imgur.com/dQ6bsYh

I'm of the opinion that the whole Vindicator UI is lazily done.

Not Including shield really doesn’t help your point here unfortunately.  If you included shield it would become painfully obvious that the skill icons for elite spec weapons for revenant are based off of the color scheme for the elite spec itself, not based off of the “gray/red” core revenant color scheme. So with this in mind GS’s scheme is actually fine and matches perfectly with what they’ve done the past two e-specs. 

[Elric.4713]

7 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Not Including shield really doesn’t help your point here unfortunately.  If you included shield it would become painfully obvious that the skill icons for elite spec weapons for revenant are based off of the color scheme for the elite spec itself, not based off of the “gray/red” core revenant color scheme. So with this in mind GS’s scheme is actually fine and matches perfectly with what they’ve done the past two e-specs. 

Light blue colour of Glint on shield and facets is only added to the mix of Revenant colour scheme and doesn't stand our nearly as much as the Vindicator with it's bright blue and orange icons. Renegade icons blend in nicely as well and only the energy bar and F skills are orange.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

13 minutes ago, Elric.4713 said:

Light blue colour of Glint on shield and facets is only added to the mix of Revenant colour scheme and doesn't stand our nearly as much as the Vindicator with it's bright blue and orange icons. Renegade icons blend in nicely as well and only the energy bar and F skills are orange.

That's all well and good and a decent critique of Vindicator's color scheme overall (personally I like it though), but I'm just saying that GS following the color scheme of the e-spec isn't new and has been done for the past two expansions as well.  I would change your argument to be about Vindicator's color scheme as a whole instead of just GS's, since GS will (and should) follow whatever Vindi's is given the precedent they've set for themselves

Edited December 7, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054