Vindicator Feedback Thread

[SWLDguitar.5746]

See a lot of complaints about the dodge and F2 endurance refill.  There's a simple fix:

 

Allow 2 dodges again, F2 becomes the death from above dodge they want.  Remove the dumb juggling of an endurance restore mechanic.

 

If they go this route, remove the block from GS 4 and put in an AOE CC ability that applies weakness and Resolution (I want the Retribution synergy over the BORING Invocation/Devasation we've had for years).  I cannot be the only one who see how similar Vindicator and Ranger GS are.  

Edited December 7, 2021 by SWLDguitar.5746

[SnakeKouki.6503]

2 hours ago, SWLDguitar.5746 said:

See a lot of complaints about the dodge and F2 endurance refill.  There's a simple fix:

 

Allow 2 dodges again, F2 becomes the death from above dodge they want.  Remove the dumb juggling of an endurance restore mechanic.

 

If they go this route, remove the block from GS 4 and put in an AOE CC ability that applies weakness and Resolution (I want the Retribution synergy over the BORING Invocation/Devasation we've had for years).  I cannot be the only one who see how similar Vindicator and Ranger GS are.  

Yes I've said it right after the first Beta that we need regular dodges back and the leap needs to either replace the Elite Skill (since not many like either one of them anyway) or put on an F button. The dodge is so important for every single game mode and I feel like the updates have gotten better but you are always paying close attention to the endurance bar and worrying about it too much and it cuts into the fun of the class.  The leap idea is really cool and a great unique thing for the class but replacing it with a dodge is a really bad idea.

[Shao.7236]

7 hours ago, Jthug.9506 said:

If they made it optional as you suggest I would be ok with it.

That's how it should be, Vindicator is nothing special otherwise. Make the legend work as an actual alliance, not simply picking who you prefer all at once.

[Angesombre.4630]

I think that there should be 2 modes because I think that it could satisfy all the players. A flip mode and a blocking mode and one to choose the legend. Because if you look at it you could use the legend to go on the opponent and with the flip to tap and then back off. So we would need an F4 to switch from dynamic mode to singular mode of the legend.

[Angesombre.4630]

Or else consider them as 2 distinct legends with 2 different actions and improve them individually. In any case I think they should be improved.

[Feduddle.5209]

Vindicator feels much better to play this round.  The damage-boosting dodge is much less annoying now that it no longer requires a whopping 3 bars of endurance.

That being said, Vindicator brings nothing new to the table in PvE.  There are better dps options out there, and the healing/support options are completely irrelevant considering renegade exists with alacrity.

I have 2 suggestions to make Vindicator relevant in PvE.

1) Give Vindicator the ability to share the damage boost from the dodge to your party/squad members so that it would actually bring a unique reason to exist in group play.

2) Give the support variant the ability to grant desirable boons (like quickness/alacrity) or unique buffs to their party/squad, perhaps shared to nearby allies when channeling the urn.

[Kain Francois.4328]

4 hours ago, Thanatos.2691 said:

2) Give the support variant the ability to grant desirable boons (like quickness/alacrity) or unique buffs to their party/squad, perhaps shared to nearby allies when channeling the urn.

It can already do that with Ventari, while granting barrier at the same time. Sure it's 5man, but let's not be spoiled. It's powerful.

[lunaeclipse.6843]

If anet want to make saint Viktor a viable support, they should combine the heal dodge and boon dodge. It would make it the only support that can give decent boon output and barrier. Scourge can give a lot of barrier, but its boon output is crap. Every other support can give good healing and boons. This would be the only spec that can do both. I dont think it needs quickness/alacrity and we already have stability/projectile hate/boonrip from other legends. It could work.

[Feduddle.5209]

5 hours ago, Kain Francois.4328 said:

It can already do that with Ventari, while granting barrier at the same time. Sure it's 5man, but let's not be spoiled. It's powerful.

Exactly my point.  There's no point in running a support Vindicator in PvE when support Renegade exists, because Renegade is simply better with the unique support options of alacrity + khalla protection + heals + lifesteal.  Vindicator gives nice heals but that's it.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

9 hours ago, Thanatos.2691 said:

That being said, Vindicator brings nothing new to the table in PvE.  There are better dps options out there

Not every spec needs to redefine the meta with new buffs, etc.  Vindicator does bring something new to PvE, which is the ability for Rev to actually have a decently viable power spec for once in its entire 6 year existence.  With a very SLIGHT damage boost to its current damage you're looking at a really good power dps spec. 

9 hours ago, Thanatos.2691 said:

1) Give Vindicator the ability to share the damage boost from the dodge to your party/squad members so that it would actually bring a unique reason to exist in group play.

It already can bring Assassin's Presence if it's not provided by another Rev which in and of itself is very worthwhile.  Bringing a 15% damage increase for the party on top of that would be insane and overcentralizing; every composition would start running at least one Vindicator and it would become another "mandatory" group buff required in the raid composiiton.  With 27 unique elite specializations and only 10 spots, the idea of having more "mandatory" group buffs directly hurts group diversity. 

The only thing Power Vindicator needs is slightly more damage, especially on its Elite Spear. 

[Jthug.9506]

22 hours ago, SnakeKouki.6503 said:

Yes I've said it right after the first Beta that we need regular dodges back and the leap needs to either replace the Elite Skill (since not many like either one of them anyway) or put on an F button. The dodge is so important for every single game mode and I feel like the updates have gotten better but you are always paying close attention to the endurance bar and worrying about it too much and it cuts into the fun of the class.  The leap idea is really cool and a great unique thing for the class but replacing it with a dodge is a really bad idea.

If they did that it would have to be nerfed into utter irrelevance, the reason it’s so strong right now is because it’s also very risky.

[Angesombre.4630]

So a 37-40k revanant would be too much but not a 55k ele? (even if there is a chance that it will change)

Currently it's around 30-31k apparently

Edited December 8, 2021 by Angesombre.4630

[Kidel.2057]

Meanwhile Mechanist can be top healer or top dps in raids effortlessly, with basically the easiest spec to play in the entire game (just needs to skillspam mace attacks).

Vindicator needs a unique buff to share. What if the +15% buff also gives an aoe +5% unique damage buff? 

Edited December 8, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Angesombre.4630]

especially since the mechanist can provide a lot of buff.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

7 hours ago, Ertrak.9506 said:

If anet want to make saint Viktor a viable support, they should combine the heal dodge and boon dodge. It would make it the only support that can give decent boon output and barrier. Scourge can give a lot of barrier, but its boon output is crap. Every other support can give good healing and boons. This would be the only spec that can do both. I dont think it needs quickness/alacrity and we already have stability/projectile hate/boonrip from other legends. It could work.

 

That sounds incredibly overbloated.

[Jthug.9506]

2 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

So a 37-40k revanant would be too much but not a 55k ele? (even if there is a chance that it will change)

Currently it's around 30-31k apparently

It's at 37k+ since beta 4. Ele will have a lot harder time actually getting anywhere near that in an actual fight, where as the 37k for vindicator is pretty doable in a real fight. Also I am sure they will balance things out more for catalyst, 55k seems a bit much.  I think people were getting max dps with shiro dwarf but I bet you might get better numbers with shiro/SA, nomad's advance hits like a truck. Also it's a good bet that they will tune up spear of archamoris for EoD. GS5 might get knocked down bit but hopefully they will reduce the cool down to compensate if they do.

 

[Zenith.7301]

13 minutes ago, Jthug.9506 said:

It's at 37k+ since beta 4. Ele will have a lot harder time actually getting anywhere near that in an actual fight, where as the 37k for vindicator is pretty doable in a real fight. Also I am sure they will balance things out more for catalyst, 55k seems a bit much.  I think people were getting max dps with shiro dwarf but I bet you might get better numbers with shiro/SA, nomad's advance hits like a truck. Also it's a good bet that they will tune up spear of archamoris for EoD. GS5 might get knocked down bit but hopefully they will reduce the cool down to compensate if they do.

 

 

Vindicators offers virtually zero utility, zero CC, and you want it to be a mediocre DPS spec while DH and Soulbeast both push 37k+ DPS with significantly more utility. Hell, condi renegade offers more utility as well.

 

Even with realistic numbers Catalyst is pushing significantly higher output than vindicator, with the luxury of better range flexibility for priority adds in encounters, and it has the fallback of the highest DPS quickness provider build on top...

[IllusoryDream.7648]

Only one dodge with double endurance cost is a big drawback, but wasting *all 3* master traits to make it slightly more bearable seems like overkill. If the dodgejump needs help to not be awful to use, maybe it should be baseline so that we can choose actually meaningful master traits?

[Angesombre.4630]

it's almost the same system as the Daredevil except that there is a support side, except that he has 3

Edited December 9, 2021 by Angesombre.4630

[Kain Francois.4328]

5 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

So a 37-40k revanant would be too much but not a 55k ele? (even if there is a chance that it will change)

Currently it's around 30-31k apparently

Frankly I think both should hover around 36k, with a rotation that isn't too hard to master.

Catalyst doing 55k dps is unacceptable. Yet the ele subforum looks at me like I'm the weird one when I say that.

[Angesombre.4630]

In general from what I saw quickly it can go up to 40k for certain class, which remains correct after there is the whole history of hitbox. 

Again I'm talking about PvE

[BOEPHI.8427]

After testing Vindi a lot over the period of Beta 4, i'd like to express some thoughts of mine here as well. These thoughts will only take Roaming and Zergfights / Guildraids into account.

I won't go into animations and visuals etc., as i absolutely do not care about these things.

At first, thanks for the changes so far to Arenanet. Vindi is much more playable than in Beta 2 and i hope my and others feedback will help to make the experience with the Spec even better.

Greatsword:
The GS in comparison to SS deals definitely more DMG, but is a bit slower. What concerns me, is the lack of CC and evades that the weapon provides. Sword, Hammer and Staff all provide CC (S4, H5, St5) and evades (S3, H3, St5), whereas GS only gives you a block. My idea would be to make GS3 an evade and to rework GS2 to something like a 2-staged attack: first stage would be a pull (i'd suggest a range of about 360), with the second stage being the attack (like what it is right now).

Alliance Tactics overall:
Alliance Tactics is a 2-in-1 legend, so it would be nice if you could use both (red & blue - shame on me idk the names, so i will go with red & blue), but as of right now, that simply isn't really possible. Changing your Alliance-Legend infight isn't an option, because the time it takes (0.5s cast-time + reation-time) is simply too long to use it actively in very tight situations where split-second decision-making is necessary.

I suggest two possible solutions for this:
1) They half the CD and Energy costs on every Alliance-Tactics Skill with the legend working as in Beta 2. This would guarantee you have access to both legends. Example: If you used your heal in Beta 4 a single time, you could use than both your heals in the same time, for the same cost. This would also (partly) solve the problem, that both heal skills are quite weak in comparison to other heal skills from Revenant.
2) They take away the cast-time from Alliance-Tactics and let it work like a "normal" legend swap - meaning it is instant, only depending on your reaction-time.

Both of them have pros and cons, but i'd personally prefer Option 2.

It would be very interesting if you could still mix red and blue with Option 2 - the use of Alliance Tactics then switches ... (2 options imo):
a) ... all Skills to the colour that is less shown. Example: If you have 2 blue skills and 3 red ones, the use of Alliance Tactics will switch the whole legend to blue.
b) ... all skills as they are with their corresponding counterpart from the other colour.

This would give the Legend a whole new feeling in context of versatility and adaptability.

Energy Meld:
I was overall pretty pleased with this one. You could argue to take away the cast-time, but that is very debatable. The thing that thorns me a little bit, is that your you need to use it on CD. It would be nice to see it doing something different, next to the Endurance, depending on the legend you are on right now - but this as well is pretty debatable.

Heal-Skills:
As mentioned above, the heals are a bit weak. Of course you have 2 heals in theory, but both of them take time to use and you need to swap your Alliance-Tactics. In a perfect world that would take you 1.5 + 0.5 + 1.5 = 3.5s + reaction-time. Thats way too long for the amount of heal that comes around, especially in comparison to Herald, Dwarf or Shiro. I'd like to see to make the heal a bit faster (like 0.5s less casting time) and increase the initial heal-output. One more thing: if Selfish Spirit (red) gives you Might, why cant Selfless Spirit give Regen or Resolution?

Awakening:
Reavers Rage (the red counterpart) has a 1.5s daze, so i'd like to see for Awakening a small CC as well. Not by such a margin, but something like a small pull would be quite usefull - especially in the context that blue is the utility side of this legend.

Elites:
Oh man, where do i start... Both of them are more or less absolutely useless. I could use the Spear sometimes while Roaming, but it probably hit 1 out of 4 times - in Zergs its an absolute waste. I also dont really get why it should give Torment, doesn't really fit in my eyes. I'd like to see them change it to another way to access Fury for Alliance-Tactics, because right now its only Reaver's Rage that gives you Fury.

Another Redditor made some pretty interesting suggestions in how the Elites could work. I'm not gonna go into detail here with what he suggested, just read it for yourself. Kudos go to u/Anonynja. Here is the link to his explanations: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/raf7cm/getting_the_vindicator_elite_spec_from_good_to/.

Traits:
I'm more or less pretty happy about the traits and the changes that were made to the dodges. Sadly, some of them are simply no option for WvW. Redemptor's Sermon is one of them. The effect is quite nice, but 90s CD for just this is way too much. It would be a really viable option at the max. of about 30s, personally i'd like to see it more in the 20-25s range. The same goes for Reaver's Curse & Angsiyan's Trust - they more or less just do the same as Song of Arboreum, but there is simply no reason to not play SoA. In Zergs you cant utilise RC and in Roaming there are (in general) not enough targets that its worth taking. Same goes for AT, the Endurance you gain is just too little and the point where you grant your teammates Endurance is just irrelevant. I'd like for these two to see a complete overhaul, so the Master-Traitline gives more variety.
In this context i'd like to speak about the Heal-Dodge. I personally haven't tride a Heal-Build, but it feels like the heal and support you could overall give with Alliance-Tactics (+ Ventari i.e.) is not enough to compete with dedicated healers like Engis atm. It would be quite helpfull for this playstyle to make 1 of the 2 Master-Traits help this variant out. A spontaneous idea would be to get 1 (or 2?) endurance, for every 500 HP you heal your allies. I can't say if that would be broken, but it would definitely be an interesting option to enable the whole playstyle.

Roaming:
I roamed with GS + SS.
Build: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PmwAExzlxQmMP6k1RpMOClRSqMCqkpqlVsF-zVRYBRNyQMc5HSmShOFBRrAU8BIg9wt9Wi4MC-w

Sometimes i changed Chest and Helmet from Marauder to Berzerker.

Zerging / Guildraid:
I recorded some footage from Inhouses, Saturday the 04.12.2021. This is by far not perfect, it was pretty difficult getting used to only having 1 Dodge, so my DMG took some pretty deep cuts. But if some of you would like to see some action, go ahead.
Build: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?PmgAEJldQmMH6k1QpsHCl9RqsAqkJ7lZsD-zVRYBRFyQMc5lSTRQmJQFhQ0FgtHgA2DvF9PjA-w

Recording: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-IHBHCXoaY

 

Tanks for reading this Novel. I hope this'll help Arenanet for what the final adjustments could or should be.
Have a good one.

Edited December 9, 2021 by BOEPHI.8427

[Jthug.9506]

On 12/8/2021 at 4:33 PM, Zenith.7301 said:

 

Vindicators offers virtually zero utility, zero CC, and you want it to be a mediocre DPS spec while DH and Soulbeast both push 37k+ DPS with significantly more utility. Hell, condi renegade offers more utility as well.

 

Even with realistic numbers Catalyst is pushing significantly higher output than vindicator, with the luxury of better range flexibility for priority adds in encounters, and it has the fallback of the highest DPS quickness provider build on top...

Hey now I didn't say I wanted it to be a mediocre dps spec, please don’t put words in my mouth!

 

 I would love to see it be a top tier power dps option in the 40k region, when traited for notoriety and swift termination for maximum selfishness and minimum support. I don't think any power dps should actually exceed that figure however, condi maybe should do a tad more. All I was attempting to convey is that it's no longer in the 31-32k dps region as you had incorrectly  asserted.

 

Also they added daze to the stun break so it's not zero CC, and you can always take shiro or mallyx or dwarf for cc as well so it was never actually zero. As far as I am concerned I don't want the damage in competitive nerfed just to get some CC. Plus as far as I know there's no rule saying you can't bring a staff and use staff 5 if you are really in need of some break bar cc for a specific encounter, you are still likely to pull 37k just camping great sword. I would rather see some immobilize added to gs 2 or 3 and I would like the daze on the stun break to be tuned up to be an equivalent amount of break bar damage per second as the dwarf taunt or the mallyx leap or jade winds.

 

As for Catalyst I think that's either condi or hybrid so it may eventually settle in at 43-45k and that's relatively ok I think, although I would welcome a reduction of all damage across all specs of about 25-33% especially in raids.

Edited December 10, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Elric.4713]

On 12/7/2021 at 6:26 PM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

That's all well and good and a decent critique of Vindicator's color scheme overall (personally I like it though), but I'm just saying that GS following the color scheme of the e-spec isn't new and has been done for the past two expansions as well.  I would change your argument to be about Vindicator's color scheme as a whole instead of just GS's, since GS will (and should) follow whatever Vindi's is given the precedent they've set for themselves

You're right, I do dislike the Vind icons in general, they're less detailed unlike the rest and the utility icons just don't look like they fit on Rev (when I made Vindicator in beta at a first glance I wasn't sure if I even made the right profession). Also they're inconsistent when it comes to Archemorus, Vind icon is red/blue, trait background and icons are red/blue but the icons and energy bar are orange.

So my proposal is to stick with the Rev darker color scheme but add in a bit of blue for Viktor and make Archemorus icons even more red or even darker red.

[Angesombre.4630]

Just one more thing don't forget that we have timer management plus energy to not spam the skills so a boost to the class is not a bad thing.

And don't think only about PvP side, there is also PvE side.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Angesombre.4630