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Vindicator Feedback Thread


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I want to be able to remove Urn so badly. 

I switched to Jalis-Shiro and things improved quite a lot. But this makes Vindicator inferior to core Rev in everything.  

 

Edit: it's actually impressive how much things got better after removing alliance. I went from getting bodied against Champions to actually thrashing them 

Edited by Kidel.2057
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Awful - even worse than Herald and Renegade. Which I hadn't imagined possible. The promise of the base class is cooldown free utilities, limited only by energy. Me in control of my character rath

Few Suggestions. 1. Seperate the legends and make two legends, legendary kurzick champion stance and legendary luxon champion stance. 2. Make both elite skills upkeep that changes your 1-5 s

For now I have only some "issue" on the visual identity of this spec: 1. Greatsword skill icon: they need to be more greyish like this: https://i.imgur.com/reYbQnt.png 2. Dodge identity

GS 2 using a basic chain animation feels bad and should be changed to something else such as the Maul animation from ranger.

GS 5 is bad design that needs to stop.  Having a skill that is dependent on RNG/hitbox size to get the full benefit from has always just felt bad.

The damage dodge takes too long, does too little damage, has a terrible animation lock and just feels bad to use overall.  This is on top of costing more than a normal dodge while only having access to one at time.

The Dual-Legend mechanic is just bizarre.  We already have two elite specs with solid support options that overshadow Vindicator.  On top of that, when trying to play full dps, it feels like I'm fighting against the mechanic just to use the skills I want.

 

Less important but, why is there burning and torment on this spec?  Shaving off some of the the damage budget to add conditions to a POWER dps spec is a bad idea.

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I've enjoyed my time with it so far though I have to admit, that dodge mechanic is just takes horrendously long to do actually be useful, and the alternative is to use a healing version rather than what it was originally designed as, a damage dealing attack that gets you into the fray. 

Also I have no idea if multipliers are even working on this class. This could be a bug because we don't even have the Vindicator illustration properly added to the beta but I feel like I'm doing next to no damage on any of the fights I've been in in open world. I've got the general flow of how the E-Spec works, but I have next to no damage to actually do with it. 

And just the last part to add, change the Urn of Saint Viktor's function. That whole "get damaged to heal allies" ain't doing anyone favours, whether myself or my allies since the area it covers is way too small, and the heal it does is so miniscule to be taking that much sacrificial damage for it. 

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Will try to add to this as I find stuff

Feedback/ Suggestions:

the only dodge that feels good to use is Saint Of Zuheltzer

F2 needs some added stuff for other legends suggestions below (but overall it would just be copying the herald on-use f2)

-Shiro: lifesteal for X seconds

-Jalis: X stability OR x% damage reduction

-Mallyx: Apply torment on hit for X seconds

-Ventari: Heal for X amount OR grant some regen

 

Saint viktor elite needs to be buffed reworked or deleted. It feels terrible to use and if you get interrupted during the cast it and completely run out of energy, and doesnt have enough of a pay-off to justify the risk

 

bugs:

Debuffs like Branded accumulation, and karka slime(don't remember the official name) do not remove on dodge

Tree Song (Saint Viktor utility) seems to interrupt its self or just do nothing occasionally

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Aside from some unnecessary cast times (such us the Urn drop), I think the focus to improve the e-spec should be on traits.

Traits are way too focused on the dodge mechanic, and so they are left with very few power/dps options. Right now, all three master traits focus on endurance regeneration, and all three grandmaster change the effect of the dodge; that's 6 out of 9 selectable traits focused on the dodge mechanic. That means we have no self-buffing traits, no consistent might or fury generation, no good damage or critical multipliers. With Renegade we have Endless Enmity for fury, Brutal Momentum for crits, and Vindication (ironic, right) for might. Traits need power options.

Also, the grandmaster dodge options need some tuning. The damage-dealing one takes way too long for what it does. Either it deals more damage/buffs for a higher % or it becomes faster. Otherwise it will probably see no play at all, in any gamemode.

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Urn of St. Victor should summon St. Victor with the urn just like Spear of Archemorus does for Archemorus. It should not be keeping players off their damage rotation, nor should the player themself be the one taking damage for it. Nerf it as needed accordingly with the new design.

 

How about some Resolution somewhere in the kit to synergize further with the Retribution traitline? Put it on the Imperial dodge.

 

Weakness on the Greatsword 2 or Greatsword 5 would be a good addition, for synergy with Dwarven Battle Training.

 

We need a smoother way to keep the skills of one Alliance Legend. Most players just aren't going to want to use most of the Kurzick skills in most situations. Maybe have it flip back to the Luxon skill when the Luxon skill finishes its cooldown.

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St. Victor elite skill is too situational, that it's basically useless. You may heal some team mates a bit in a dungeon or some other place, who in return can revive you. That's the only situation i can think of for this skill, any other situation basically kills you faster than a harbinger. Give it maybe a reflect bubble or some boons to make it elite instead of keeping another useless obsolete skill. In it's current form it's the danger button you should never press.

Edited by makagoto.1204
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Yeah, after testing it a lot WITHOUT the new legend I can safely say that that's the main problem. The specs is way better using 2 core legends (more damage, more useful upkeeps and elites, better skills in general, no cooldowns).

 

The traits are bad because they lack damage modifier (even if I'd argue that the vigor/energy traits are nice with Retribution), but the main issues are with the benefits of the new dodge (very few) and with the utility/elite skills. They're bad, all of them. Some may look nice on paper, but the long cooldowns go against Rev's main mechanic.

Especially Urn. Urn is so awful. At this point the only way to fix St Viktor may be to allow us to choose the skills of this legend with the build. That would be a great advantage and give some payoff for the lack of a useful F2 skill and the cooldowns. 

 

The only damage modifier on traits should NOT be on the worst dodge. Death Drop is just unusable compared to the other ones. Song of Arboreum is a must. It's so much superior to the other ones that it should be baseline and get this over with. 

Edited by Kidel.2057
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Greatsword skill #5 should be 1/2 second cast AOE Taunt (4s) with some damage, as to synergize with Greatsword #4.

This double legend should be handled as follows. You start in Archemorus and stay there until you hit f2 and then your bar switches to Saint Viktor. Only f2 swaps between the two. Should you Legend swap to say Jalis and then back to the double it will remember which legend was current between the two. This would allow pure offensive play and pure defensive play should a player want to "camp" one of the double legends.

Edited by Kraav.8136
Adding more feedback
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5 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Yeah, after testing it a lot WITHOUT the new legend I can safely say that that's the main problem. The specs is way better using 2 core legends (more damage, more useful upkeeps and elites, better skills in general, no cooldowns).

 

The traits are bad because they lack damage modifier (even if I'd argue that the vigor/energy traits are nice with Retribution), but the main issues are with the benefits of the new dodge (very few) and with the utility/elite skills. They're bad, all of them. Some may look nice on paper, but the long cooldowns go against Rev's main mechanic.

Especially Urn. Urn is so awful. At this point the only way to fix St Viktor may be to allow us to choose the skills of this legend with the build. That would be a great advantage and give some payoff for the lack of a useful F2 skill and the cooldowns. 

 

The only damage modifier on traits should NOT be on the worst dodge. Death Drop is just unusable compared to the other ones. 

Yeah I don't know what's up with using cooldowns on top of energy costs. Either one or the other, not both.

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1 minute ago, Kraav.8136 said:

Greatsword skill #5 should be 1/2 second AOE Taunt (4s) with some damage, as to synergize with Greatsword #4.

 

Or, given the spec has a high reliance on hitting many enemies at once, a small area pull that sucks enemies to the player, to set them up for the rest of the skills.  Also would give the GS some sort of CC skill.

Edited by Elan.7523
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Just now, Kraav.8136 said:

Greatsword skill #5 should be 1/2 second AOE Taunt (4s) with some damage, as to synergize with Greatsword #4.

This double legend should be handled as follows. You start in Archemorus and stay there until you hit f2 and then your bar switches to Saint Viktor. Only f2 swaps between the two. Should you Legend swap to say Jalis and then back to the double it will remember which legend was current between the two. This would allow pure offensive play and pure defensive play should a player want to "camp" one of the double legends.

I agree with this, even if that would basically make F2 into another F1 and basically give 3 legends. However it would be so much better. 

The fact is that at the moment both Archemorus and St. Viktor skills are bad. So much bad indeed. 

 

Want proof? Try your current build with 2 core legends, then tell me. 

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3 minutes ago, Ulysses.2058 said:

Yeah I don't know what's up with using cooldowns on top of energy costs. Either one or the other, not both.

Yeah, core rev has some cooldowns on amazing skills such as Inspiring Reinforcement, but all Alliance skills are bland. I mean, the Elite is a long range hit and the other one is a self-kill button that forces you into 2 animations. I guess it could be fine to use it in SOME situations, but the point is that you can't avoid equipping it

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Unlike the previous two rev specs, the new spec does absolutely nothing for the other legends. Herald gives a buff that varies based on what legend you currently are, Renegade gives a host of cool skills that dont care what rev you are.....this one......gives endurance.....woo.

And the traits only effect your dodge, and your specific legend utility skills, the other elite speccs did a bit more then that.

This spec really does shoe horn you in to very specific builds. Which is sad, I love the great sword skills but I am not a fan of the utility skills. The great sword and the super hero landing are pretty fun though. Traits and the F2 need to be altered to work with other legends better.

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Lmao went in to mess around with it and got into wvw after a few minutes of queensdale. Went in with my warclaw with his dodges and couldn't figure out why I didn't have a dodge on entering combat. Warclaw dodges eat the revs endurance. Like nobody at anet even tested this build at all to miss something so basic.

 

its actually the death from above trait causing issues with unmounting, resetting your rev's endurance back down to 100 of 150.

Edited by Justine.6351
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I was really waiting for the Vindicator, but there were very contradictory feelings after some time in Beta.

3 legends at the same time - super cool

New dodge mechanics: feels nice and not as awkward as I expected.

Utilities: the impact of using them does not feel particularly strong, but they have already been discussed in detail before me.



What I would like to focus on is a greatsword for the Revenant (I was waiting for a two-handed sword most of all)

1 skill - auto attack feels nice, AoE and chill with vulnerability help to give a little uniqueness to this auto attack
2 skill - even though I liked the effect of damage to the ground from a blow, but the attack itself looks and feels... exactly like a normal auto-attack, and not as a separate skill.
3 skill - the visual effects are pleasant, but even compared to other weapon mobile skills of the revenant... it doesn't feel like something particularly interesting.
4 skill - there was an indescribable feeling that I was playing with a Scrapper with an electric block.
5 skill - I liked it the most: the only skill in which there is some kind of unique identity.

My final thoughts on GS.

Positive aspects:
+ 5th GS-skill (despite some randomness-it feels very nice)
+ AoE strikes on 5 enemies

Negative aspects:
- With the exception of the “5th” GS skill, the sword feels like the most uninspiring, boring and banal GS in the game.

> I looked at the list of skills of all Greatswords in the game, and with the exception of the warrior GS-skills, the Revenant has only 1 (!) really unique skill (5th). Each class with a two-handed sword has from 2 to 4 unique skills (excluding AA) - the Revenant has 1.

If we do not even take into account Mesmers, then here are the unique, noticeable and characteristic GS skills of each profession:


Warrior: 2 and 4 GS skills (5 I think too, even if a little boring)
Guardian: 2, 4, 5
Ranger: 2, 5
Necromancer - Reaper: 2, 3, 4, 5 (!)

Revenant: ...only one - the 5th GS skill?

P.S. Animations of sword-swings (not even "after-effects") on Rev-GS need a complete rework, too much basic and boring. Floating theme looks good on Rev (like with Gravedigger/GS-5), but I think that we need more animations and more "uniqueness". Current Vindicator - more like core warrior with GS, not so much "Revenant"-like.

Edited by Loules.8601
typos and little correction/addition
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After 3 Hours of Testing Vindicator in different situations i have a few suggestions:

 

"Death from Above" : Since the Duration of it might be fixed (150 energy ~ 3 seconds of dodge.) i suggest reducing it back to 100 Energy to make the cast Faster or increase the outgoing damage and Damagebuff to make it worth the 3 second Airtime.

 

"Legendary Alliance": The idea of having flipping skills and being a dps and support in 1 legend is a good idea, but i would rather split the legend into 2 separat legends, that you unlock as vindicator so you are able to choose either dps skills or support skills (no mixing, like 2 blue 1 orange skill, its all or nothing) and of course increase the 10 second cds of the skills to 15sec and 20sec for the spear.

 

"Greatsword skills": it seems the greatsword 3 is missing the "generates fury on hit" tooltip, wich triggers when you hit something with it. and it doesnt move 900 range, more like 300-400.

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Death Drop / Forerunner of Death ANIMATION takes longer compared to the other dodge and is, objectively, a dps loss, despite being supposed to be "the damage dodge". The problem is that the ONLY damage modifier of the whole spec is tied to that dodge. It's also too expensive and even with max endurance generation it can only be done enough to keep the Forerunner of Death buff up, so you basically give up the possibility to dodge when it's useful with NO PAYOFF: 

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So far for the most part really enjoying the spec.  A lot of the issues are probably L2P because there is quite a lot to juggle right now and a lot to experiment with.  In general I think the build is going in the right direction.

 

Some numbers need to be tweaked but I have no doubt that will be done and there have been many good suggestions on this in this thread.

 

From a feedback perspective (for now) these are my main points-

 

For the GS, really love the weapon for the most part.  My only real issue is that I find there is too much of a delay between Imperial Guard and True Strike or the cast time for True Strike is slightly too long.

 

For the Alliance skills -

 

- I agree with a few other posters above that the flip skills shouldn't have a cool down until both have been used, this would create a much more dynamic push - pull feel and add to the fluidity of the combat.  Energy would still be a limiting factor regardless here.

 

- Urn of St Viktor is absolutely awful.  Half the time it's a suicide button.  There is way too much time between casting the Urn and dropping it.  Really it just always feels bad to have it sit there.  This should definitely be reworked, the pay off is just far too low.

 

Traits - 

 

- Leviathan isn't as good as it would seem at first.  The added 20 seconds to F2 feels a bit long and the trait gives nothing to any other legend so it feels a bit too pigeon holed, the same goes for Amnesty of Shing Jea.

 

F2 -

 

On Alliance feels engaging and good, on other legends not so much,  could probably be changed to bring it more in line with the other Rev specs 

 

Dodge -

 

Definitely an l2p thing, a lot of my issues will be solved by getting out of habits.  Some comments though-

 

- there should be a bit more control as to when to end the dodge it's often not beneficial to be floating for so long though the option to be able to os nice.

 

- The damaging dodge needs more of a pay off if it's going to cost as much as it does. The radius is too small to be able to properly utilise Reaver's Curse and it's the dodge option that needs it the most, the actual date could also be higher or inflict some form of CC.

 

General the spec needs more Hard CC, I would perhaps consider reworking Urn of St Viktor into a hard CC type skill.

 

All in all though really enjoying the spec and looking forward to seeing how it evolves.

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  • Kidel.2057 changed the title to My Vindicator Beta 2 (or 4?) Feedback

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