Vindicator Feedback Thread

[Zaret.1450]

If theres any dev here, say something please, it was bad enought that you didnt change anything from last beta and e en nerfed rev, so at least say something like youre reading feedback, i mean... no offe se but you were listening to us and going the right way and just suddenly stoped and dropt it

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

They rushed it I guess. Got everything done except for specs.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Ran Cele Mallyx/Alliance, Minstrel Jalis/Alliance, and Minstrel Ventari/Alliance in WvW today. All felt really good but WvW was a ghost town so good fights were lacking. In general I really enjoyed myself a lot. Alliance Swap not having a cast time makes the legend feel really strong, at least on the builds I tried. Urn got me killed a couple times but...well I got myself killed for using it when I shouldn't have. Only tried power in open world PvE and it felt like a behemoth. 

 

Will eventually provide a more comprehensive review on the spec, but for now my feelings are generally positive despite my disappointment with so few changes occurring, and there being bugs that have been present since beta 1 still persisting. 

[Loki.4871]

My problems with the legend is pretty much the same as with the beta

 

-For an elite who's about two figures 'working together' the two skillsets are entirely divorced. You could delete one and it wouldn't affect the other.

-There is little incentive to alternate between them unless you have something like harrier (ie, power and healing) stats in your build. Middle line traits should be stronger to encourage this, or even allowing you to enable a first beta style flipping (with buffs as a carrot) to encourage thing.

-When you get off the mount you're always on the kurzick stance.

-Either because I've been trained on two dodges or the stamina regen simply isn't enough (or cap is too high), Vindicator can't dodge often enough. I can prop this up with rune of the firework, and I know some utility skills give stamina on hit (making them very limited on single target tough bosses) but I think Vindicator should simply get either a reduced stamina cap (for the sake of example, 65 stamina instead of 100) so it's easier to dodge. Right now, it's asking for too much with too little being given back; something that could be solved with tweaking some numbers and/or traits imo.
All the master traits are about how you get your stamina back, which I feel is a terrible waste and a symptom of the elite's problem; too much stamina is needed for leaping; better to merge the master traits, make some new ones (eg, greatsword cooldown+other effects for one) and make the current master traits all a minor trait and give the vindicator something else. Master and grandmaster are both buffs to the dodge that don't really make the elite 'pop'. Daredevil's grandmasters are all a dodge effect, sure, I'm not sure copying that for the vindicator is such a good thing when it's so hard to leap regularly.

[zallesz.1650]

54 minutes ago, Loki.4871 said:

-For an elite who's about two figures 'working together' the two skillsets are entirely divorced. You could delete one and it wouldn't affect the other.

-Either because I've been trained on two dodges or the stamina regen simply isn't enough (or cap is too high), Vindicator can't dodge often enough.

Yes, my 2 biggest problem as well.

1, Unless you stat for it, there is no reason to use the 2 sides. If you DO stat for it(both healing and power) , you will be subpar in both support and dps. Instead of giving us a selfish, full on power dps spec, they want to add on top some hybrid support aspect. We already have 1 spec that is all about boon generation, and 1 spec that is one of the most requested support specs in the game, there is no need for a third. 

Possible solution: Make it so that RED guy has bunch of dps abilities, whereas BLUE guy is full of utility skills like hard cc, stunbreak and evade. This would allow you to switch between the 2 stances, depending on the situation. This would ALSO fix the fact that Alliance stance or GS offers very little cc. 

 

2, TALKING ABOUT PVE ONLY: Not sure how 1 dodge is going to work in evade-heavy PVE encounters, either strikes or raids. Dodge is supposed to be one of the best defense skills in the game, but we are required to use it just to gain more dps. If we use it for the buff, then the boss does an attack, what do you do? None of the "dodge-changed" specs have this problem. Right now it feels like the entire master trait line serves as a fix to a problem that was deliberately introduced. 

Possible solution: Either give us back 2 dodges, and reduce the impact / power of the dodge attacks, or reduce the energy cost from 100, to something like 60-70, so that you can still dodge "more frequently", but you cannot double dodge, like other specs. 
IN PVP: you can just give the mirage treatment to dodges. 

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Anet to revs: Forced Engagement: This skill now requires the revenant to face their initial target.
Necros: *staff spam without looking at your target continues*

[Bish.8627]

2 hours ago, zallesz.1650 said:

Yes, my 2 biggest problem as well.

1, Unless you stat for it, there is no reason to use the 2 sides. If you DO stat for it(both healing and power) , you will be subpar in both support and dps. Instead of giving us a selfish, full on power dps spec, they want to add on top some hybrid support aspect. We already have 1 spec that is all about boon generation, and 1 spec that is one of the most requested support specs in the game, there is no need for a third. 

Possible solution: Make it so that RED guy has bunch of dps abilities, whereas BLUE guy is full of utility skills like hard cc, stunbreak and evade. This would allow you to switch between the 2 stances, depending on the situation. This would ALSO fix the fact that Alliance stance or GS offers very little cc. 

 

2, TALKING ABOUT PVE ONLY: Not sure how 1 dodge is going to work in evade-heavy PVE encounters, either strikes or raids. Dodge is supposed to be one of the best defense skills in the game, but we are required to use it just to gain more dps. If we use it for the buff, then the boss does an attack, what do you do? None of the "dodge-changed" specs have this problem. Right now it feels like the entire master trait line serves as a fix to a problem that was deliberately introduced. 

Possible solution: Either give us back 2 dodges, and reduce the impact / power of the dodge attacks, or reduce the energy cost from 100, to something like 60-70, so that you can still dodge "more frequently", but you cannot double dodge, like other specs. 
IN PVP: you can just give the mirage treatment to dodges. 

Been thinking a lot about the dodge, I think we should have 2 dodges but the effect only happens on 100%. Open world with events and bosses has been ok, but retraining your brain to use blocks or escapes rather than dodge is a tough one. I have been using sigils and energy meld etc and I am getting there, feels like the build is almost all about getting that dodge off, but with the sustain nerf too, I think this would be a decent compromise between not spamming the dodge and having that escape that you are sort of punished for using.

As for the dual legends, only used blue for the heal and condi clean so far, the escape is nice as a second dodge, but hitting the bind to switch, and using it is very cluncky over an actual dodge, maybe change it to a hard CC if we got the second dodge.

[Tungsten Monarch.6058]

Please bring back Skill swap on use between Archemorus and Viktor skill use like it was in the first Beta. The current set up is frustrating, the first set up was perfectly unique to it's design that made it enjoyable.

[Ald.9418]

The bottom line for me is the dodge mechanic just doesn't feel good to use. It's not fun thematically or gameplay wise. I can work around everything else.

[sgs.4523]

Honestly I don't see why the hate for the dodge mechanic. I have no issues handling the legends or dodge - currently running a hybrid cele/dragon armor with leadership runes (helm and gloves are cele, rings and accessories cele), the rest is dragon while weapons are greatsword and sword/sword (although I'll probably switch to hammer for ranged option and some KD's) with dragon stats, sigils of endurance and force. 2nd legend being shiro or jalis for cc or mad sustain.

 

Soloing Canthan champs without any issues, dodge crits in range 25-45k, last night Volcanic and Chaos fracs were a joke - each kill replenishes dodge + you have access to energy meld for another dodge for that "oh kitten" moment if needed. So you can dodge and if your dodge doesn't finish a mob then use energy meld to finish a mob and guess what - another dodge available after kill! I was dodge-killing slugs in Volcanic like crazy, was more up in the air than using sword skills. Very fun spec to play, versatile, mobile..

 

Also another thing you guys keep saying is that there is no need to swap between legends and you're very wrong - Viktor gives you condi cleanse, dodge roll backwards to actually evade when needed, regen and heal. You can literally prebuff yourself before each fight with regen, pair it with battle scars, swap and use Archemorus heal when surrounded by mobs to stack might on yourself and on top of that use the utility to give yourself quick and fury - if you take invocation traits in order 2-2-3 you can expect some great constant crits. 

 

About mobility: you have greatsword leap, Viktor roll, Archemorus leap, two dodges (with energy meld) and if you take Shiro you have roll back and teleport to mob (just mark some other mob to move towards it), sword 5 skill  - so those are 8 movement skills at your disposal. Plus don't forget sword 2 skill that you can use to dodge virtually any mechanics because you can't be hit in the animation. I don't think any class can top that mobility. Play with action cam or if not then turn off auto targeting and you can easily change directions of movement with skills . Bad situation? swap to Viktor, roll back, use greatsword leap to move further away, swap to Archemorus to leap even further away, swap to Shiro to use roll again... you get the pattern.

 

Elite spear throw deals decent damage if you got high crit chance and condi ticks are a good passive dmg support with celestial hybrid that can tick the mobs to that % where you can kill them with your dodge and replenish the dodge again. You drop Archemorus spear, while it casts the throw you leap in the air and it'll either do dmg for you to finish off the mob or you will do most of dmg and spear will finish the mob and you get your endurance back for another dodge.

 

Rev has always been a complex class to play due to energy management since to play good it requires you to memorize your legends, energy costs, calculate in advance your skills and I feel that Vindicator requires a deeper understanding of the class to be able to use it efficiently. If you only dabbled a bit in Revenant then you'll probably have a hard time with Vind. For me, it's great and I'm loving it - filled all my expectations and I look forward to working on my rotation and numbers after I get the mechanics fully.

 

Take some time to learn, apply some of this I said and you'll transform your experience with this spec.

 

Good job Anet, Revenant finally got the love it deserves!

Edited March 2, 2022 by sgs.4523

[Zaret.1450]

2 hours ago, sgs.4523 said:

Honestly I don't see why the hate for the dodge mechanic. I have no issues handling the legends or dodge - currently running a hybrid cele/dragon armor with leadership runes (helm and gloves are cele, rings and accessories cele), the rest is dragon while weapons are greatsword and sword/sword (although I'll probably switch to hammer for ranged option and some KD's) with dragon stats, sigils of endurance and force. 2nd legend being shiro or jalis for cc or mad sustain.

 

Soloing Canthan champs without any issues, dodge crits in range 25-45k, last night Volcanic and Chaos fracs were a joke - each kill replenishes dodge + you have access to energy meld for another dodge for that "oh kitten" moment if needed. So you can dodge and if your dodge doesn't finish a mob then use energy meld to finish a mob and guess what - another dodge available after kill! I was dodge-killing slugs in Volcanic like crazy, was more up in the air than using sword skills. Very fun spec to play, versatile, mobile..

 

Also another thing you guys keep saying is that there is no need to swap between legends and you're very wrong - Viktor gives you condi cleanse, dodge roll backwards to actually evade when needed, regen and heal. You can literally prebuff yourself before each fight with regen, pair it with battle scars, swap and use Archemorus heal when surrounded by mobs to stack might on yourself and on top of that use the utility to give yourself quick and fury - if you take invocation traits in order 2-2-3 you can expect some great constant crits. 

 

About mobility: you have greatsword leap, Viktor roll, Archemorus leap, two dodges (with energy meld) and if you take Shiro you have roll back and teleport to mob (just mark some other mob to move towards it), sword 5 skill  - so those are 8 movement skills at your disposal. Plus don't forget sword 2 skill that you can use to dodge virtually any mechanics because you can't be hit in the animation. I don't think any class can top that mobility. Play with action cam or if not then turn off auto targeting and you can easily change directions of movement with skills . Bad situation? swap to Viktor, roll back, use greatsword leap to move further away, swap to Archemorus to leap even further away, swap to Shiro to use roll again... you get the pattern.

 

Elite spear throw deals decent damage if you got high crit chance and condi ticks are a good passive dmg support with celestial hybrid that can tick the mobs to that % where you can kill them with your dodge and replenish the dodge again. You drop Archemorus spear, while it casts the throw you leap in the air and it'll either do dmg for you to finish off the mob or you will do most of dmg and spear will finish the mob and you get your endurance back for another dodge.

 

Rev has always been a complex class to play due to energy management since to play good it requires you to memorize your legends, energy costs, calculate in advance your skills and I feel that Vindicator requires a deeper understanding of the class to be able to use it efficiently. If you only dabbled a bit in Revenant then you'll probably have a hard time with Vind. For me, it's great and I'm loving it - filled all my expectations and I look forward to working on my rotation and numbers after I get the mechanics fully.

 

Take some time to learn, apply some of this I said and you'll transform your experience with this spec.

 

Good job Anet, Revenant finally got the love it deserves!

i already replied in another post, sumariced here would be... youre using vindi as an inferior renegade wich wasnt wat was asked to anet nor what rev needed in the first place

I get it you all love hibrid builds but some just want an aliance shiro full power berserk build and current vindi cant do it.

also someone said something about first beta, if it was as first beta noone would ever be able to play vindi in raids nor fractals unless youre with friends and want to be the laughting stock. Sry its perfect as it is 2 separate legends that have nothing to do with eachother except for lore.

[sgs.4523]

I have to disagree with you, Shiro/Archemorus does great deal of dmg and is viable. You just got something else than you hoped for and this is purely subjective

[Scoobaniec.9561]

27 minutes ago, sgs.4523 said:

I have to disagree with you, Shiro/Archemorus does great deal of dmg and is viable. You just got something else than you hoped for and this is purely subjective

I hope you get paid for posting

[sgs.4523]

1 minute ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

I hope you get paid for posting

Revenant is not viable for everyone so just find something you enjoy in :)

[Zaret.1450]

9 minutes ago, sgs.4523 said:

Revenant is not viable for everyone so just find something you enjoy in 🙂

mmm it shoukd viable in wvery game mode and every role, the same as guardian for example, that is the point of having diferent trait lines, elitr specs and all the things. if each class had to have a specific roll then make it so you just have one class one roll.

[Angesombre.4630]

20 hours ago, Tungsten Monarch.6058 said:

Please bring back Skill swap on use between Archemorus and Viktor skill use like it was in the first Beta. The current set up is frustrating, the first set up was perfectly unique to it's design that made it enjoyable.

I had proposed for the alliance a F4 to lock or unlock the change of the alliance. It would have allowed everyone to find his style with it, although there are still things to modify next.

[Obtena.7952]

8 hours ago, zaswer.5246 said:

mmm it shoukd viable in wvery game mode and every role, the same as guardian for example, that is the point of having diferent trait lines, elitr specs and all the things. if each class had to have a specific roll then make it so you just have one class one roll.

No  all Specs can't be viable in every game mode in every role. That's just unreasonable and impractical. It's funny you use the exception to what is normal make your comparison. But even your example isn't viable in every game mode in every role ... so seems to me you aren't really aware of what you speak of.

Edited March 2, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Zenith.7301]

Energy Meld needs to have no cast time, provide vigor, and block for 2 seconds or grant aegis.

 

A single dodge on a spec with barely any vigor access is ridiculous.

 

By the way, Spear of Archemorus, our elite, costs three times the energy of GS2, does barely any damage, has a long kitten wind up, does not cleave, and has a longe cooldown to boot.

 

How you allowed this ability to go live this badly tuned is beyond me.

Edited March 3, 2022 by Zenith.7301

[Vexona.6452]

I'm unsure what the devs want for Vindicator. There are 2 legends slapped into one with a way to regen your energy but why would I  switch to the awkward healing/maybe boon giving when my team needs damage? For the last two expansions you can build two legends that complement each other and allow for energy management and with this new one... what does it give I'm not already getting from the current builds? Honestly nothing. The damages aren't there and it's extremely clunky to play. If you're going to create a very complex game, the least you, gameplay developers can do is provide basic templates for what it is you're wanting for the players. Because either you have builds in mind or you're just making up neat sounding abilities and new animations for the heck of it.

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Vexona.6452

[Angesombre.4630]

The problem is that this legend was thought to be played with a skill reversal like Herald. But due to the rather rigid result there was just a f3 added which unbalanced the alliance with the synergy planned at the base and even on the talents, it was not revised according to this way of playing. There was some good and bad in the gameplay, but the rest was not updated for the new mode.

Now it is considered as two legends that try to make a harmony...

[Ephyr.2175]

is this new specialization supposed to be a joke? 

[Savoren.3910]

CC on greatsword is my biggest issue with the spec. The lack of CC is so bad to the point of making the spec struggle to deal with breakbars in PvE. Take a look at other weapons revenant can use:

Hammer has Phase Smash (chilled for 2 seconds) and Drop the Hammer (knockdown for 2 seconds).

Sword has Chilling Isolation (chilled for 2 second) on mainhand and Shackling Wave (immobile for 1 second) on offhand.

Staff has Warding Rift (blindness 4 seconds) and Surge of the Mists (knockback).

Mace has Echoing Eruption (weakness for 3 seconds).

Axe has Frigid Blitz (chilled for 2 seconds and slow for 2 seconds) and Temportal Rift (pull).

 

Greatsword, on the other hand, has Arcing Mists (chilled for 3 seconds) as last skill of autoattack chain and Phantom's Onslaught (chilled for 3 seconds). Having chilled as the only way to deal with breakbars is a huge downgrade compared to any other weapon including any of the mainhand/offhand combinations. They need to change Phantom's Onslaught by removing chilled and replacing it with daze to give vindicator a way to deal with breakbars.

[Vexona.6452]

I would like to also point out that the leap replacing dodge feels... terrible. You're out of the fight for almost two seconds waiting to land and you have to hope you aren't landing in something bad. At least with the dodge replacement on Mirage you're actively still dodging and set up for axe 2/3. I get you put leap in the game to fulfil some childhood fantasy but there are other ways to incorporate the leap. Honestly it should be part of the actual kit for a CC breaker since you've given us 0 as a GS user.

[Zikory.6871]

So I got to the training Heart.

Break bar? Neat, Vindicator has no CC. I just swapped to a completely different build.

Combo fields? Vindicator only has 1 whirl and 1 leap. Again, just swapped to a different build. 

Dodge 5 attacks in a row? lmao. Luckily you don't actually need to dodge to complete it. 

[SWLDguitar.5746]

1 hour ago, Zikory.6871 said:

So I got to the training Heart.

Break bar? Neat, Vindicator has no CC. I just swapped to a completely different build.

Combo fields? Vindicator only has 1 whirl and 1 leap. Again, just swapped to a different build. 

Dodge 5 attacks in a row? lmao. Luckily you don't actually need to dodge to complete it. 

1. Swap to Staff, use stun break.

2. There are no combo fields, used Retribution Top Dark bubble.  Wish they gave a field for each side of alliance stance.

3. Got nothing here, side stepping worked thankfully.

 

Was a bit of a head scratcher.