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Vindicator Feedback Thread


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IMO, the follow-up attack on GS4 should be a bit faster. Just feels super clunky to block and absorb a ton of attacks, then hit it again only to have it be easily dodged or side-stepped due to it being super slow.

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Awful - even worse than Herald and Renegade. Which I hadn't imagined possible. The promise of the base class is cooldown free utilities, limited only by energy. Me in control of my character rath

Few Suggestions. 1. Seperate the legends and make two legends, legendary kurzick champion stance and legendary luxon champion stance. 2. Make both elite skills upkeep that changes your 1-5 s

For now I have only some "issue" on the visual identity of this spec: 1. Greatsword skill icon: they need to be more greyish like this: https://i.imgur.com/reYbQnt.png 2. Dodge identity

It definitely needs longer Vigor duration in PvE.  Unless you have an external source of Vigor, keeping up Forerunner of Death's bonus damage buff is incredibly tight in the rotation.  This is with both Spirit Boon and the Vigor on dodge trait. 

I'd suggest starting by increasing both Vigor sources on Vindictor from 4s to 5s each (Spirit Boon, Song of Arboreum).  Alternatively could add Vigor to Energy Meld for a few seconds as well.  Next I would also consider increasing the buff duration of Forerunner of Death from 15s to somewhere between 16s -20s.  This would give very slightly more flexibility in the rotation and not cause frequent damage losses due to dropping the buff before being able to dodge again (or dropping the buff while mid dodge animation). 

Again, all PvE only changes. 

Edited by LucianTheAngelic.7054
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Here's what i would change

 

- Choose either Archemorus or Viktor, remove swapping

- Heal depends on adrenalin level or add energy drain

- scavenger burst, tree song -> remove range, add engery drain or add ammo, nobody wants to stare on the skill bar and press the same button every 3s

- change the evade mechanic so it is less clumsy underwater by changing the evade time

- urn of saint viktor and drop the urn: combine it into drop the urn for an aeo heal in the area

- spear of Archemorus add aeo damage

Edited by raubvogel.5071
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Let me start by saying that I speak with instanced pve in mind, I do not play revenant in PvP and WvW so I wouldn't know about vindicator there.

 

I like the spec and what it does: it's different and fun and I would love to stay as it is; I like the weird, long-lasting mandatory dodge and I like the Legendary Alliance swap, it is often unused but it can come in handy sometimes and it's an interesting tool (some nice group healing, condi cleanse and group stunbreak on a dps build, if needed? I like that!)
If the dodge and the legends swap mechanics get changed then it becomes just an anonymous spec with different skills and there would be no reasons to even play it.

 

But, imo, there are some important issues.

 

As DPS:


- This class is and should be a power spec, so it should just drop the few and useless conditions; why does Spear of Archemorus have torment? Just drop it and make the strike damage higher, right now it just hits as hard a Nomad's Advance (which is nothing too fancy anyway) and does nothing else...for an elite, it's disappointing to say the least;
maybe it could be more interesting if, after using it, it provided you with a 10% bonus damage for 10s or something?
- Greatsword really needs a bit of hard cc: right now the spec has very little cc in its kit, if at all (Shiro's Jade Winds costs 50 energy and all it does is 300 breakbar damage); maybe greatsword 3 could have a little daze in there? It's just bad to be forced into staff on a dps build if you need to bring more cc;
- The numbers are too low: for being a fully melee build, with not much going on for the group and giving up its ability to dodge (for everyone who thinks: greatsword 4 is a parry, learn to use it!, I recall that almost any build has a block and/or some damage mitigation WHILE having 2 dodges), being definitely on the low end of the spectrum of dps builds is not so good; the numbers should go up in order to have any chance to run it, right now ANY other dps class/build is just way better as damage and, you know, ability to stay alive; even if it benched 40k on  medium targets I am convinced it wouldn't suddendly appear in all Raid/Strikes groups...


As support:


Vassals of the Empire is a very interesting trait and a boon/heal/alac vindicator seems as a very interesting build, but

 

- Severe Rejuvenation really needs to be updated; as base values, it makes Natural Harmony provide 2s of alacrity...with 100% boon duration that's 4s for 20 energy...that means ALL your energy to barely upkeep alacrity, you simply cannot press any other skill; that's so bad, it's unusable; as it is now, I can't even understand why there is alacrity in that trait;
Vassals of the Empire helps, but with a 2s extension once in a while you still must spend almost all your energy on alacrity and more or less cannot change legend;
why not boosting Severe Rejuvenation to base 2.5 or possibly 3s? This way, with 100% boon duration AND Vassals of the Empire you may, once in a while, press other skills and swap legends...just make it playable, right now it is not and I don't see why it shouldn't, otherwise all the vindicator support/heal builds are just pointless and a waste of traits; with the current availability of builds, there would be 0 situations where taking a vindicator would make any sense, if it cannot provide alacrity (which it tries to do but in a pathetic way).
With heal mechanists running around I can't see any issue in having a couple more seconds on this build's alacrity.


Right now there are no reasons to play vindicator in any instanced PvE content; i really wanted to play as dps or support but both builds are just a way to be HUGELY less effective than any other class/build playing in the same role.

I really hope that, at least in the summer patch, you can make this spec make any sense for PvE, becasue it is interesting and fun, but being fun and pretty bad does not make it usable outside of the open world; until now it will stay on the bench and I will play it for the fun, on easier content, once in a while.

 

Tldr: Please, make dps and support vindicator viable, I am not saying meta or whatever but, at least, viable.

 

Thanks for reading through all of this.

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I agree with what Gobbla said, especially about Severe Rejuvenation, very boring.  Personally, I would like to see the cooldown of Alliance Tactics severely reduced, as it is I find it too punishing to switch.

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Oi dawg, I heard u like legend swaps, so I put a legend swap in yo legend swap, so you can legend swap while u legend swap

 

How about making alliance tactics count as legend swap for the purposes of Invocation? I'd also like treesong and scavenger burst to be at least centered on player. The whole "aggressive" vibe exemplified by the dodge implies being in the fray anyways. At least for now.

 

I will propose some changes once I get in game later this night and can provide a sufficiently ordered and detailed proposal. This thread is called "Vindicator Feedback" after all. I hope someone reads this. 

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21 hours ago, KingGobbla.7642 said:

- Severe Rejuvenation really needs to be updated; as base values, it makes Natural Harmony provide 2s of alacrity...with 100% boon duration that's 4s for 20 energy...that means ALL your energy to barely upkeep alacrity, you simply cannot press any other skill; that's so bad, it's unusable; as it is now, I can't even understand why there is alacrity in that trait;

Vassals of the Empire helps, but with a 2s extension once in a while you still must spend almost all your energy on alacrity and more or less cannot change legend;
why not boosting Severe Rejuvenation to base 2.5 or possibly 3s? This way, with 100% boon duration AND Vassals of the Empire you may, once in a while, press other skills and swap legends...just make it playable, right now it is not and I don't see why it shouldn't, otherwise all the vindicator support/heal builds are just pointless and a waste of traits; with the current availability of builds, there would be 0 situations where taking a vindicator would make any sense, if it cannot provide alacrity (which it tries to do but in a pathetic way).

Because then, Revenant would be able to provide Alacrity with every elite specialization. It would paralyze support capability of the profession.

It would be much better if Serene Rejuvenation was reworked to give Vigor to allies instead (4s baseline).
Vital Blessing changed to give Stability instead of Vigor.
Add a Fire field to Elemental Blast so with Renewing Wave, support Herald can give extra Might.
Change Vindicator so it has a support trait that let him give Quickness to allies.
Lower the energy cost of Orders from Above to 10 so you can be tempted to use it untraited (otherwise why it exists ?).

Herald : tank / support (giving Fury, 25 Might, and many defensive boons to the party)
Renegade : condi / alacrity
Vindicator : power / quickness

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3 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Because then, Revenant would be able to provide Alacrity with every elite specialization. It would paralyze support capability of the profession.

It would be much better if Serene Rejuvenation was reworked to give Vigor to allies instead (4s baseline).
Vital Blessing changed to give Stability instead of Vigor.
Add a Fire field to Elemental Blast so with Renewing Wave, support Herald can give extra Might.
Change Vindicator so it has a support trait that let him give Quickness to allies.
Lower the energy cost of Orders from Above to 10 so you can be tempted to use it untraited (otherwise why it exists ?).

Herald : tank / support (giving Fury, 25 Might, and many defensive boons to the party)
Renegade : condi / alacrity
Vindicator : power / quickness

Thank you!

I would even say Serene Rejuvenation to give Aegis, increased healing BUT increasing the CD in order to have it equal to Advance skill from guardian in some way. But the thing is we need to get rid of the alac there so we can have better roles overall the whole profession.

Vindicator should be the established rev 5-man quickness giver(it wouldn't hurt to have fury also spread to 5-man target so it can give quick, fury and 25 might). 

 

Herald, on the other hand...is very underwhelming now that is capped with 5-man target inscreased boon duration. It should have some great giga compensation to make it somehow viable in the intanced pve side of the game. Maybe better healing in Shield, maybe Aegis 5-man in shield or maybe change the entire Facet of Nature from Dragon.

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1 hour ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

Thank you!

I would even say Serene Rejuvenation to give Aegis, increased healing BUT increasing the CD in order to have it equal to Advance skill from guardian in some way. But the thing is we need to get rid of the alac there so we can have better roles overall the whole profession.

Vindicator should be the established rev 5-man quickness giver(it wouldn't hurt to have fury also spread to 5-man target so it can give quick, fury and 25 might). 

 

Herald, on the other hand...is very underwhelming now that is capped with 5-man target inscreased boon duration. It should have some great giga compensation to make it somehow viable in the intanced pve side of the game. Maybe better healing in Shield, maybe Aegis 5-man in shield or maybe change the entire Facet of Nature from Dragon.

ANet would never make Serene Rejuvenation give Aegis. They removed Aegis from Mantra of Solace because it was too easily available. Natural Harmony can be spammed way more than Mantra of Solace.

But shield could be made into a team weapon rather than a selfish weapon.
Shield #4: Envoy of Exuberance - No longer give Protection. Give Stability to allies.
Shield #5: Crystal Hibernation - Heal is now in a 240 radius and first pulse give Aegis.

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  • 2 weeks later...

After waiting all this time to finally be able to play GS Rev, i'm treated to a gimmick dodge mechanic that seems completely out of place. Fix the dodge by giving me back my two evades and move the silly mechanic to another skill. Boom, Vindicator half fixed.

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2 hours ago, Ald.9418 said:

After waiting all this time to finally be able to play GS Rev, i'm treated to a gimmick dodge mechanic that seems completely out of place. Fix the dodge by giving me back my two evades and move the silly mechanic to another skill. Boom, Vindicator half fixed.

Imagine if we had normal dodge, but the extra added F key is the Dynamic Entry! evade+effect.

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Energy Meld just seems like a waste of a skill to me (when untraited at least). Just another button to press in order to offset the dodge limitation. Could have easily rolled it into the dodge limitation itself by making the dodge consume, I dunno, only 90% of your endurance or something? Or rework it so that it's actually fun to use and has some interesting effect other than flat endurance gain.

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TLDR: Make Vindicator more offensive. Ditch the two-for-the-price-of-one Alliance Skills and make them one. Remove the 1 dodge mechanic and stop introducing problems that you create with it.

Overall, the Vindicator feels unrefined with a mix of ideas that don't work. Anet, stop trying to shoehorn support into a profession that's had two specs more than capable of supporting in group content! It feels like almost no feedback except the legend skill swap on use was received and integrated. If it were up to me, I'd completely ditch two sets of legend skills and work on combining the Luxon/Kurzick legend skills with a selfish focus. Starting in order:

 

Profession Mechanic:

Energy Meld should be instant cast. Cost and endurance regained is fine. It breaks the flow of a rotation to use it.

Alliance Tactics should be removed (see changes below as to why).

The endurance bar should be reverted to a two-dodge bar costing 50 endurance each. The normal dodge would be replaced by the same drop animation we have (but faster/instant) and deal damage. Giving two dodges ensures that we can still use them for defense and not just boosting DPS.

 

Weapon skills:

1 - Fine.

2 - Change the animation please. Maybe make it cast a bit faster, but not too much wrong here.

3 - Fine, but change the tooltip or update the range to match the tooltip.

4 - Fine.

5 - Change the animation please.

 

Legend Skills:

 

Going to combine them all here and leave out any exact numbers since the concept is more important.

Remove Selfish Spirit/Selfless Spirit and replace with Twin Spirit Healing: Heal yourself and heal yourself based on a percentage of damage dealt to enemies (similar to Litany of Wrath).

Remove Nomad's Advance/Battle Dance and replace with Archemorus's Rage (-6 upkeep): Store energy until you release this skill and deal damage for every interval (0.5s) you stored. Gain +20% damage while active. Instant cast.

Remove Scavenger Burst/Tree Song and replace with St. Viktor's Blessing: Gain protection, regeneration, and vigor. Short duration channel.

Remove Reaver's Rage/Awakening and replace with Battle Meditation: Break stun and grant yourself stability and aegis. Instant cast.

Remove Spear of Archemorus/Urn of Saint Viktor and replace with Empowered Legendary Spear: Aim your cursor to throw a spear in a line. Enemies struck are inflicted with vulnerability and dealt massive damage. The trail of the spear leaves behind a trail that grants might and fury to yourself and allies. Short cast time, piercing.

 

Traits:

If it's fine, no change.

Greatsword Proficiency: Fine.

Tenacious Ruin: Fine, but as said before it needs to be changed back to 50 endurance dodges for a total of two.

Leviathan Strength: Gain +100 power and an extra +15% damage while a greatsword is equipped.

Amnesty of Shing Jea: Fine.

Redemptor's Sermon: Change to only heal yourself but more healing.

 

Balance in Discord: Energy Meld now grants health when used.

Reaver's Curse: Dodges now leave behind a damage over time AoE.

Angsiyan's Trust: Increased effect of vigor on yourself.

Song of Arboreum: Dodges now leave behind a healing AoE.

 

Empire Divided --> Empire United: Gain an extra +150 stat boost based on your other legend when the Legendary Alliance stance is also selected (ferocity for Shiro, boon duration for Ventari, power for Mallyx, and vitality for Jalis).

Forerunner of Death: Damage dealt by dodges is increased massively. Remove damage buff for dodging.

Vassals of the Empire: Dodging inflicts slightly increased damage and extends boon duration on yourself.

Saint of zu Heltzer: Dodging deals less damage and heals yourself. Gain vigor, aegis, and protection on dodge.

 

These changes should give the Vindicator the extra DPS it needs to be competitive with other top content power DPS, remove the awful situation of wasting dodges for DPS increase, and provide more options for the player to choose from.

Edited by Chaos.7614
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5 hours ago, Chaos.7614 said:

Energy Meld should be instant cast. Cost and endurance regained is fine. It breaks the flow of a rotation to use it.

No, it shouldn't. It shouldn't exist at all. The button is a pretty bad way to bandage the pretty pathetic excuse of new rev mechanic(the dodge jump which is one and costs double the normals).

As I already comented, as long as vindi have an extra button and traits that interacts with our endurance bar means they clearly created a pointless overwhelming problem and refuse to revert it or delete it.

Energy Meld is just the proof they f.... up the e-spec and have 0 clue on how to actual make a good e-spec.

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19 hours ago, Howluffu.7259 said:

No, it shouldn't. It shouldn't exist at all. The button is a pretty bad way to bandage the pretty pathetic excuse of new rev mechanic(the dodge jump which is one and costs double the normals).

As I already comented, as long as vindi have an extra button and traits that interacts with our endurance bar means they clearly created a pointless overwhelming problem and refuse to revert it or delete it.

Energy Meld is just the proof they f.... up the e-spec and have 0 clue on how to actual make a good e-spec.

Yes, the problem with the jump is that there's only 1 and it's being used for DPS instead of active damage mitigation. If you read the rest of my post, you'd see that those changes I outlined would give the vindicator two dodge damage jumps with no incentive to jump purely for a DPS increase - it'd just be a cherry on top of regular dodging.

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Got my HPs yesterday and went to build a Vindicator.  Never played the Revenant too much - too fiddly.  So I played the Guardian, Rangers and Necro a lot and the other pretty much up to 80.  The Renegade got my attention.  I was soloing Elites and doing well right out of the gate including soloing a Veteran Fire Hydra and an Awakened Elite.  So I figured the Vindicator would rock.  So I got the points and got the spec.  UGH.  Very few decent builds and almost none using the celestial armor I got for the Renegade.  Most were just power type builds trying to force the new weps and lousy legends in.  My play style is solo and small (2-5) group open world PVE stuff.  I enjoy things like my Renegade, Reaper or Untamed being able to wade in and end the fight relatively quickly to concentrate on the champion.  Is this just not what the Vindicator is all about?  Real disappointed since the the Renegade is my first real Condi player and it is awesome and super high damage in a fight.

Any context about decent builds (none on Metabattle, GuildJen or even much on YouTube) or how to play it would be appreciated.  Not wanting to spend any gold or time on it until I know it I have anything I'll play.

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Posted (edited)

EDIT: Before I get flamed to death. PVE OPEN WORLD PERSPECTIVE

So far Vindicator and Untamed are my two favorite professions in EoD. But this one has way better damage. Mostly camping on Archemorus with Diviner/Marauder stats. It as a very strong synergy with Superior Rune of the Ice and the Greatsword. Supports intuitive action-based gameplay.

Gave Saint Viktor also a few tries with the same build. Works great for using only offensive stats with 0 healing power. Tested in meta-events. Even the elite-skill has its moments, but it is very weird. I doubt it is powerful enough to replace a true healing profession. It is more something of a situational decision, when your HP is ok but your allies are in very low health. Quickly switch to Saint Viktor and once everyone is back on track, swap back to Archemorus. That is how I do it at the moment.

Improvement ideas:
Spear of Archemorus should have a taunt.
- Split up the dodge damage/heal into multiple pieces and let it pulse in the area during the cast-time. With a massive blast/heal at the end. Turn the landing into a blast-finisher and the area into a combo field. While on Archemorus it is a fire-field, while on Saint Victor it is a water-field.

First time I can enjoy playing Revenant in GW2. Too bad I have tested it so late :S.

Edited by HnRkLnXqZ.1870
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From the perspective of playing support in WvW.

I think the target priority of Tree Song needs to be changed to use the same target priority as shake it off.

In theory Tree Song cleanses the same amount of conditions as shake it off but it practice it isn't close as the skill tends to select party members who have no conditions on them and just applies regen to them.

This change would increase the overall cleansing and healing within the squad which would allow overhealing and overcleansing from scrapper or FB to take the edge off the vindicator's party while they are in the dodge animation. It would also more consistently cleanse conditions which results in more consistent energy regen from the skill making the rotation more comfortable and no longer having the entire thing ruined by target selection.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

After this is only my opinion but the vindi should have made that we just choose the legend of the alliance we wanted, if we want to dps the red side and not necessarily have access to the blue, with a clean mechanic for each. And on the other side make support to make a better support with ventari. Not really the current system, because it makes it harder to balance the two. I'm sorry to misspeak, but I think she has things more than shiro but she is very similar to shiro in her skills. It gives the impression to have 2 legends in one but without real harmony between the 2. Again this is my feeling.

It could also have been fun to have a side like ele if we have the blue side to have the swordfish skills change.

Edited by Angesombre.4630
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