Vindicator Feedback Thread

[Buran.3796]

  Ok, now that the ship (Vindi) crashed and is sinking in all kinds of game modes I would like to suggest which changes I would like in the spec; which wouldn't make me to like it but maybe could be enough for making it something I play outside of using a character for alt park/mule-. Probably is not what ANet would want to do with the spec but that's fine since a lot of Rev players also doesn't want anything involved with Vindi, so is a "tie". My suggestions:

Greatsword: None, outside a corret tool tip describing how Phantom Onslaugh has only a 450 unit range with no attack if you didn't engage a target. Is not cool to lie new players about what skills do, and PO most of the time doesn't provide a 900 unit movement. Outside from that they should replace most of the animations (borrowed from Ranger and Reaper), but they wouldn't, so why not at least clarify in the tooltip of Tru Strike how the skill works? Is the damage based on number of attacks blocked by Imperial Guard, in the amount of damage prevented by it or just random?

The Alliance: here's where I would do the BIG changes. Since Vindi lost alacrity and pure healer Vindi is outclased by heal  Herald (which to be fair isn't anything outstanding compared agains the competition) I would suggest a radical change: keep the first four skills of Archemorus (Selfish Spirit, Nomad's Advance, Scavenger Burst and Reaver Rage) and replace Spear of Archemorus with Kurzic's Tree Song, but increasing the cost to 40 energy and adding an AoE pull as Heated Rebuke from Firebrand's Tome of Justice #3, with a defiance breakbar force of 300 (as Jade Winds). The rest of Kurzic's skills gets removed: No more flips from Luzon to Kurzic and viceversa.

    That would solve the absence of cc in Vindicator (you're mad if you think I'll run staff or Jalis again just for cc in the state they currently are), remove the useless Spear which oftenly does nothing (obstructed) or hits like greatsword's auto after a two seconds delay, and since sources of evasion and regen (Battle Dance) and protection and stability (Awakening) plus the Selfless Spirit heal are ditched we could go back again to a Selfish Spirit with 10 s cd.

   About Energy Meld, I don't known what is for: just remove it, along Alliance Tactics. See, on one hand, seems that this skill with no instant cast is designed to help Vindi to evade, but on the other hand you just nerfed vigor duration, so you don't want Vindi  to evade, and why I would want to flip the Legendary Alliance stance if not only doesn't reset our energy to 50 but also it cost us 10 energy units? Is just absurd.

   So instead of providing us with a legend with 11 skills totalizing a energy cost of 175 units which only resets to 50 after swaping from the core legend, we could use a single mix of Archemorus and Victor totalizing 120, still expensive (Shiro is 135) but not mentally insane. as currently.That would kill heal Vindi but don't worry, is already dead! (and remember that YOU did that to yourselves) but at least power Vindi would be playable (given enough buffs in damage output).

   Of course I don't expect this change (since would be like recognizing that messing with evades and adding two lame legends with shared energy swap was a bad design since the start), but hey: you deleted banner Warrior from the game just to backpedaling it in a blink (for those who say that ANet never changes back, another example of that being not true), so seems that you're receptive to pain stimulous, so maybe there's hope...

[Angesombre.4630]

We have the impression that they don't know what they are going to do with vindicator, they did it for the cantha theme, but after that, nothing.

[Chaos.7614]

A trait to benefit greatswords would be great to have, in addition to these new balance changes.

[Polar.8634]

Upcoming patch is good overall, but not for vindicator. Half of profession is dedicated to support but support vindi will not be played. Same reason why there will not be support DPS option. And pure DPS, no condi version because there are no traits in vindicator to support condi. This narrows it to power DPS build only. Which is not amazing anyways. Combine it with no good builds in competitive modes - not gonna be played.

There is just no reason to play it.

[Buran.3796]

   I read the updated notes for the 23th patch. Rev wise does nothing.

   It focuses on power variants at PvE for Herald and Vindicator. But power is obsolete, specially if is mele power. And VERY specially at OW large events (when the interactions run so crazy that the framerrate sometimes falls to single digits).

   Ok, ok, they are thinking about instanced content ...  Hammer Rev...  Instanced content...  -laughs in Charlton Heston.   But also, NO: EoD's 3rd and 4rth maps require large OW events to fill the exp bar (which moves at snail pace if you just kill mobs), and there's no reason to run a slow Vindi which goes even slower when swaps to hammer instead of using a Renegade with short bow (condi, of course).

   I won't run a power Rev ever again; and much less one using a hammer (or a staff). That thing is chungo . 

   

[Megastorm.6219]

I feel like Vindicator would work out great if the red and blue skills provided regeneration, stability, quickness, and alacrity for the sub-squad of five members, not just selfish depending on the skill.  If energy sigils would give some skill upkeep energy on swap, that might help.  

Edited August 21, 2022 by Megastorm.6219

[Jees.5478]

Vindicator is still to weak. He would be ok if they change his greatsword 5 skill from random hits to guranteed hits. 

 

On the Golem I did with GS only:

Small hitbox 33k

Big hitbox 34.5k

Huge hitbox 35.5k

 

I would be happy if he would do 35k on all hitboxes. Maybe the pros can find something, but right now hes still trash as a dps unit. I used the ingame dps meter, because arc dps needs an update.

 

I wait some days and see but I think its time to change to soulbeast.

[zallesz.1650]

Ever after the patch, the Vindicator, which can realistically only be played as a power dps, is not a great power dps. It is one of the worst. It brings no helpful boons or utilities to the party, does subpar damage, has almost zero cc, 2 useless elite skills (that you cannot change because of your class), wrong tooltips since EOD launch, and only one dodge. 

 

Like... why? Who thinks that it's in a good place?

[KingJake.6529]

1 hour ago, zallesz.1650 said:

Like... why? Who thinks that it's in a good place?

Nobody lol it sadly needs an entire rework for it to work in PvE. It literally doesn't do anything other than being an auto attack bot

[gwalt one.4895]

After playing Vindicator during all the beta events and waiting until this last balance patch and reading through the majority of this thread and agreeing with plenty of thoughts and suggestions, here are my thoughts and suggestion on/for Vindicator:

Utilities:

• Remove the swap between red/blue. Give us the option to select our own utilities from both red and blue skills potentially opening up some group utility rather than completely locking yourself out of a set of utilities for 10 seconds, also the Alliance Tactics just doesn't feel good but more like a band-aid for what was the original flip mechanic that's just still there.
• 10 new skills but only one upkeep? Upkeep is part of the profession identity/mechanic, maybe make Scavenger Burst/Tree Song a pulsing upkeep that also shares it's boons adding more group utility.
• Remove/Change Elites. Maybe remove torment from Spear of Archemorus and add a taunt/pull/knockback/knockdown/immob, something to add some CC to the spec aside from 1.5 second daze from Reaver's Rage. (A thought is maybe have a spectral Vizu pop up behind the enemy to immob/stun them). Another thought could be to turn both the elites into upkeep skills that summons the corresponding legend to join you in battle like... an alliance. They could either be like a pet doing damage or healing and/or a mobile spirit providing buffs.

Greatsword:

• Fix Phanton Onslaught; either give it the stated 900 range or fix the tooltip.
• Eternity's Requiem:
  • Could be changed to a large aoe pulsing blast centered on the Vindicator (like the EMP from Legion Waystation) doing reduced damage each pulse. This makes it a reliable damage dealer regardless of hitbox.
  • Alternative could be every enemy within range is affected by the attack and marked by a rift that explodes x amount of times each time dealing reduced damage after the first (like the final auto for sword but multiple strikes and applied to AoE)

Dodge:

• Give back the second dodge.
  • Reduce the effects of the traits and the entire animation to be in line with regular dodges if need be.
• That aside, an alternative to the pain point of a long animation that locks us out of doing damage (odd to keep dps out of a fight), a thought comes to mind; give us the distort effect like a Mirage dodge and have a shadow (or the real us and the distortion be a shadow) do the jump effect, this allows us to stay in the fight. Building upon this idea, the shadow version can be the legend that your current elite skill is set to or maybe based on the trait you have selected; Archemorus or Viktor, one does damage while the other heals/barriers.

[Howluffu.7259]

2 hours ago, gwalt one.4895 said:

After playing Vindicator during all the beta events and waiting until this last balance patch and reading through the majority of this thread and agreeing with plenty of thoughts and suggestions, here are my thoughts and suggestion on/for Vindicator:

Utilities:

• Remove the swap between red/blue. Give us the option to select our own utilities from both red and blue skills potentially opening up some group utility rather than completely locking yourself out of a set of utilities for 10 seconds, also the Alliance Tactics just doesn't feel good but more like a band-aid for what was the original flip mechanic that's just still there.
• 10 new skills but only one upkeep? Upkeep is part of the profession identity/mechanic, maybe make Scavenger Burst/Tree Song a pulsing upkeep that also shares it's boons adding more group utility.
• Remove/Change Elites. Maybe remove torment from Spear of Archemorus and add a taunt/pull/knockback/knockdown/immob, something to add some CC to the spec aside from 1.5 second daze from Reaver's Rage. (A thought is maybe have a spectral Vizu pop up behind the enemy to immob/stun them). Another thought could be to turn both the elites into upkeep skills that summons the corresponding legend to join you in battle like... an alliance. They could either be like a pet doing damage or healing and/or a mobile spirit providing buffs.

Greatsword:

• Fix Phanton Onslaught; either give it the stated 900 range or fix the tooltip.
• Eternity's Requiem:
  • Could be changed to a large aoe pulsing blast centered on the Vindicator (like the EMP from Legion Waystation) doing reduced damage each pulse. This makes it a reliable damage dealer regardless of hitbox.
  • Alternative could be every enemy within range is affected by the attack and marked by a rift that explodes x amount of times each time dealing reduced damage after the first (like the final auto for sword but multiple strikes and applied to AoE)

Dodge:

• Give back the second dodge.
  • Reduce the effects of the traits and the entire animation to be in line with regular dodges if need be.
• That aside, an alternative to the pain point of a long animation that locks us out of doing damage (odd to keep dps out of a fight), a thought comes to mind; give us the distort effect like a Mirage dodge and have a shadow (or the real us and the distortion be a shadow) do the jump effect, this allows us to stay in the fight. Building upon this idea, the shadow version can be the legend that your current elite skill is set to or maybe based on the trait you have selected; Archemorus or Viktor, one does damage while the other heals/barriers.

I second this user.

Alternative give 2 normal dodges back and use the jump attack on either elites( forerunner of death in archemorus elite and saint of zu heltzer in viktor with the vassals of empire staying as a trait for extra group support/utility in either elite jump and create 2 more meaninful Major grandmaster traits).

[McWelp.1723]

Finally upgraded to EoD and made fresh new Vindi. Heres few thought after playing it for few days...

 

• dodge mechanic is cool the first few times you use it in old zones and stomp some weak mobs to smithreens, but becomes MAJOR drawback immediately when doing harder content (PoF, HoT, etc..). Just make it faster, use less endurance and remove current F2 mechanic completely.
• miniscule heals scattered here and there. This combined with current dodge mechanic, I'm having really hard time keeping this guy alive.
• split legend mechanic seems completely pointless, them being almost identical. They need to completely rethink the split skills to make switching worthwhile and interesting.
• legend swap mechanic is bit more complex than it needs to be. Less confusing with added flexibility would be to use F1 for core legend, F2 for Archemorus and F3 for Saint Viktor. Either remove end regen completely or throw it to F4 if they absolutely want to keep it in game.
• damage seems OKish.
• i kinda sorta like the idea behind Vindi...
• i wish legends would just kitten (that banter gets old really fast). Game needs specific option to just shut them up, since i dont want to get rid of all npc blabla.

 

Currently I use Vindi to stomp some easy mobs and switch back to core (or completely different class) when doing anything else. Vindi is just not working for me at all.

Edited August 28, 2022 by McWelp.1723
formatting

[Master Ketsu.4569]

PvE: Vind is good for solo DPS, but not much else. In Raids and such it's inferior to Power herald and all condi. Alliance stance is inferior DPS to Shiro/Jalis if you have an alternative source of quickness.

sPvP: Alliance stance in sPvP is massively overnerfed. The last set of nerfs it got made little to no sense as the spec was already not being played much in high level games, as good players figured out that you just wait for it to blow the 1dodge. So these nerfs overall really feel like they were designed to pander to lesser skilled players. Shiro/Jalis Vind is better in sPvP due to these nerfs. Also VotE and SoA are still bugged. Herald is a far better choice in all aspects of sPvP.

WvW: Shiro/Alliance is a solid WvW roamer build, pretty much the only place Vind feels good. This is likely due to the overnerfs from sPvP not being applied here.

Overall meh. The main problems seem to all stem from Alliance stance just not being that good. The numbers in AS are too low in PvE. The Cooldowns too high in sPvP.

 

TL;DR Greatsword is good and fun. Alliance stance is bad.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Master Ketsu.4569

[SoulGuardian.6203]

12 hours ago, McWelp.1723 said:

Finally upgraded to EoD and made fresh new Vindi. Heres few thought after playing it for few days...

 

• dodge mechanic is cool the first few times you use it in old zones and stomp some weak mobs to smithreens, but becomes MAJOR drawback immediately when doing harder content (PoF, HoT, etc..). Just make it faster, use less endurance and remove current F2 mechanic completely.
• miniscule heals scattered here and there. This combined with current dodge mechanic, I'm having really hard time keeping this guy alive.
• split legend mechanic seems completely pointless, them being almost identical. They need to completely rethink the split skills to make switching worthwhile and interesting.
• legend swap mechanic is bit more complex than it needs to be. Less confusing with added flexibility would be to use F1 for core legend, F2 for Archemorus and F3 for Saint Viktor. Either remove end regen completely or throw it to F4 if they absolutely want to keep it in game.
• damage seems OKish.
• i kinda sorta like the idea behind Vindi...
• i wish legends would just kitten (that banter gets old really fast). Game needs specific option to just shut them up, since i dont want to get rid of all npc blabla.

 

Currently I use Vindi to stomp some easy mobs and switch back to core (or completely different class) when doing anything else. Vindi is just not working for me at all.

All this right here.

 

Everything this player posted.

 

Have 3 F skills legend switch.

Remove the endurance refiller all together and just give it two endurance bars, or make it refill a lot faster... maybe even gain some through battle, or a boon.

 

For instance, when you use dodge, you gain a boon that refills it a lot faster.

 

Just some ideas to simplify a mechanic that's currently over complicated. 

[Elessaria.9142]

On 8/28/2022 at 3:02 PM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

...or make it refill a lot faster... maybe even gain some through battle, or a boon.

 

For instance, when you use dodge, you gain a boon that refills it a lot faster.

You literally have traits that do both of those things...

Edited September 7, 2022 by Elessaria.9142

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

18 hours ago, Elessaria.9142 said:

You literally have traits that do both of those things...

Half of these suggestions come from players who have played the spec for a couple hours at most. I wouldn't expect high tier discussion or understanding from most posting here

[SoulBlaze.3059]

Can we go back to old vind please, the class is kitten now

[ShawnShazam.5932]

I feel like the spec mechanic doesn’t really work well and is often counterintuitive, as are some vindicator skills. If I want to play a power dps I will never switch to Vics stance and if I play a healer there is not much value to gain from Archie. I understand that they try to make the spec versatile but it doesn’t feel like it’s well designed at all especially when your alliance stance utilities are  inferior to other stances and lack crucial effects. Also the animations on all of the skills except for the dodge jump and the elite skills look boring and recycled. If I compare this to renegade it’s like comparing a kindergarten drawing to the Mona Lisa. 
Why can’t we summon the 2 legends as npcs for a few seconds for example? Or have a toggle skill where they periodically appear behind you and attack or heal in an aoe?
Also the dodge shouldn’t be interrupted by cc. It’s already costly enough and doesn’t even do enough damage to justify it being interrupted by a maguuma jungle frog jumping on its belly while your rev is literally floating somewhere in the clouds…

[Angesombre.4630]

I would like for the vindicator that it fixes the bugs that date from the first beta on the dodge jump and the GS already in the first place. I'd like to see the archetype changed, like removing the "Balance in Discord" trait and applying it directly to the "Alliance Tactics" skill. Instead of "Balance in Discord" only the trait "Song of Arboreum".
These are only suggestions for ideas.
This allows you to redo all the traits "Master". We could replace for example:
-a trait to increase DPS
-a trait to share buffs or to be able to put more alteration with the legend or the GS (because a little bit of frost is not crazy when you look at it well)
-a trait to give more buffs to share other than regeneration.

The more the Alliance skill has been increased on both sides, the more it looks like an assembly of 2 legends without any link between them.

[GenerationX.9178]

I am little mixed. I feel dodge to telegraphed. the f2 recharge 50% seems way to slow for combat. I cant say 2 dodges willl help the class.  The counter on great sword is 100% amazing but I think needs to last longer but at same time I do get why is short because its an aoe. I would make it like ranger where it stays for while.  Dodge really and f2 just feels slow idk. Healing wise i cant really comment because even though it lacks it. The spec feels more like its more glass cannon and if youd add healing to the dps output it could be to strong.

Edited September 11, 2022 by GenerationX.9178

[zallesz.1650]

The more and more I play Vindi (and I really want to like it), the more I feel that the jump should just be an profession skill. Let us keep our regular dodges, and give us the big jump as an F2 skill. This way it is not so difficult to do any kind of HoT content without dodges. 

 

Also please for the love of god, please update our animations, skill 1 & 2 & 4 use the same bland swing animation, that is just unfair. 

[Anonynja.3172]

Revenant PvE main chiming in. Vindicator is a half-designed spec sitting on a lot of potential. It needs a lot more work than number-tweaking. They had a cool idea for this Alliance duo but haven't figured out how to implement it. In the first beta, our Alliance utility skills swapped individually. They got rid of card-flipping based on feedback. Now they're rolling back the single dodge mechanic based on feedback. I agree with these changes because the card-flipping and single dodge were bad. However, we are left with an espec that has no real identity. Just this yet-to-be-fleshed-out Alliance idea. 

I *love* revenant. Its lore, its aesthetic, its versatility. So dope. We have a strong core profession. We have an *incredible* Renegade espec. Renegade is so versatile. You bring utility and support even when playing pure DPS. Every single one of our Charr spirit AoEs and Orders from Above offers value no matter the role you're filling. And after seven years struggling since HoT launched, Herald feels pretty solid now. The Facet boon pulse mechanic is good design. It has a unique identity that synergizes with the rest of the class. Consume-spamming directly contradicts that good design, so we are all hoping they change how Herald generates quickness.

Vindicator doesn't have a strong basis yet. We can play a selfish pure DPS with barely any utility, or a masochistic pure healer with barely any utility. The Urn is a terrible elite not worth touching. The Spear is blandly implemented, just damage to spam on recharge. The delayed strike offers some strategy for spiking in PvP modes but is irrelevant in PvE. We don't even have any upkeep skills... on the profession with energy management as its unique thing!

Suggestions:

• The Urn and Spear elites should be upkeep skills that build power as they charge
• With our single dodge being reverted, we need a different set of middle traits. Currently all three just give endurance in different ways. Waste of  a slot.
• F2 Energy Meld is a wasted skill slot, doubly so with the dodge revert. F3 Alliance Tactics to switch within Alliance is awkward. As others have suggested, let us switch between our three legends with F1-3. It shouldn't take two steps to get from Shiro through Archemorous to Saint Viktor's heals, for example. Just let us pick Saint Viktor or Archemorous directly.
• Add an F4 skill and use traits to increase the synergy between Saint Viktor and Archemorous and incentivize legend swapping. Balance in Discord doesn't quite get us there, especially in PvE. We have to figure out if Vindicator is going to be a hybrid spec (it's not right now) or if each Alliance Stance can contribute to a pure DPS or pure support role (they don't right now). I think ANet can replace the middle traits to make this happen.
• Give Saint Viktor a unique strength. It doesn't have to be quickness or alacrity. Heal Scourge offers both high barrier and unparalleled revives through Transfusion. Find a unique mechanic that vibes with Saint Viktor. It doesn't have to dominate. Niche is okay.

TL;DR I believe ANet can make Vindicator shine by

1) making the Alliance elites upkeep skills to bring Vindicator in line with Revenant's core energy mechanic,

2) letting us swap to Alliance legends directly, and

3) adding an F4 skill and reworking the newly-obsolete endurance traits to increase synergy between Saint Viktor and Archemorous.

Edited September 17, 2022 by Anonynja.3172

[Elessaria.9142]

Having played the spec a fair bit recently it does feel kinda lacking for options, and there are things that don't really gel. For example having two sets of skills on Legendary Alliance but only one energy pool. Even your profession skill Energy Meld doesn't actually give you any energy. Plus there isn't much of a sense of enmity between Viktor and Archemorus and most builds focus on combining one or the other with either an offensive or defensive core option which makes the Alliance Legend not chosen a complete third wheel in how the class plays and even how the Legends converse with the player and each other.

 

Personally, I'd much prefer Vindicator to lock your legend selection to just Saint Viktor and Archemorus as your two legends, and then have more energy-focused profession skills. You could have an F2 that boosts your energy regeneration by 50% for 10s and an F3 that resets your legend-swap cooldown for example. I'm sure the idea behind Energy Meld is to help the dodge mechanic feel like a key component, but honestly the wider game has plenty of ways for us to experiment with Endurance but Energy is much more limited by being a Revenant-only mechanic.

[HorvathKirnerAkos.6205]

So with 2 dodges we are officially out of Imperial Guard / Unrelenting Assault jail. Now Anet should rework Spear of Archimorus as an upkeep skill.  Lessen the range, the damage it deals and also lessen the amount of torment it applies but make the spears appear on a 1 or a 1.5 second interval.  I think power build would highly benefit from this change and maybe a condition vindicator build would also make its debut.

 

Cheers

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

4 minutes ago, HorvathKirnerAkos.6205 said:

So with 2 dodges we are officially out of Imperial Guard / Unrelenting Assault jail. Now Anet should rework Spear of Archimorus as an upkeep skill.  Lessen the range, the damage it deals and also lessen the amount of torment it applies but make the spears appear on a 1 or a 1.5 second interval.  I think power build would highly benefit from this change and maybe a condition vindicator build would also make its debut.

 

Cheers

Can we not dumb down every Revenant utility dps rotation to "use upkeep until out of energy." It's SO boring and that gameplay already exists with Shiro/Jalis and Mallyx (Mallyx at least has a somewhat interesting interaction with gameplay)

Edited September 25, 2022 by LucianTheAngelic.7054