Vindicator Feedback Thread

[Kidel.2057]

because the spin doesn't hit. It's just the meteor shower that deals damage. In my opinion it needs to give priority to chilled targets or something like that. 

But frankly that's the last think I'd worry about. The biggest problem here is the whole skill flip thing with F2 being useless and having a useless trait. 

Energy Meld is fine. Just use that and add a F3 skill that "locks" the skillbar in a wanted configuration (aka disable flips) 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Obtena.7952]

1 minute ago, Justine.6351 said:

you cannot seriously be defending such an obvious lack of internal testing can you? oh wait its obtena who just argues any position to death. dig those heels in boi.

I'm not defending anything ... this is a test, you found an issue. Maybe instead of trying to be clever and all 'LOL', you simply report whatever bug you found ... like intended by the testing process. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Justine.6351]

1 minute ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Unfortunately specs don't change too much on their core mechanics after beta events. The biggest change we got on Renegade after the first beta was to move the stun break from the Healing skill (lol, do you guys remember that? Brilliant idea, right?) to a Utility skill. 

The only way I see to fix Vindicator is to add a F3 skill to "freeze" the skillbar in the current config  and prevent the skills from swapping (and just use Energy Meld for F2, that's fine). That's a great idea that would allows Rev to get some minor skill customization for the first time ever. 

Unfortunately it's never going to happen. 

I mean I do expect them to fix the endurance bug before the next time it comes out. I am just confused how something so blatant got released anyhow.

And yeah lol that rotating skill bar is atrocious. That I do not expect to change either. Again if they had any QA testing it would never have shipped because its just that bad.

[Justine.6351]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I'm not defending anything ... this is a test, you found an issue. Maybe instead of trying to be clever and all 'LOL', you simply report whatever bug you found ... like intended by the testing process. 

I did report it. And yeah it is lol. An obvious symptom of what is to come.

[Kidel.2057]

Just now, Justine.6351 said:

I mean I do expect them to fix the endurance bug before the next time it comes out. I am just confused how something so blatant got released anyhow.

And yeah lol that rotating skill bar is atrocious. That I do not expect to change either. Again if they had any QA testing it would never have shipped because its just that bad.

Not to mention the fact that Saint's Shield provides actually more dps (and of course survivability) than Death Drop. That's hilarious. 
I consider things like these minor however, and at best an indication that this is really a pre-alpha and that they made the right call by delaying the expansion. This can be tweaked with some number adjustments. 

What I seriously find terrible and unfixable (because they'll never change it drastically) are the skill flip thing and the Urk elite. 

The only way I see them fixing the skill flip is by 1. remove CD (kitten, we have energy, come on), 2. add a F3 skill to freeze the config. But that's too much work, they'll just tweak the numbers. 

 

[Justine.6351]

2 minutes ago, Kidel.2057 said:

Not to mention the fact that Saint's Shield provides actually more dps (and of course survivability) than Death Drop. That's hilarious. 
I consider things like these minor however, and at best an indication that this is really a pre-alpha and that they made the right call by delaying the expansion. This can be tweaked with some number adjustments. 

What I seriously find terrible and unfixable (because they'll never change it drastically) are the skill flip thing and the Urk elite. 

The only way I see them fixing the skill flip is by 1. remove CD (kitten, we have energy, come on), 2. add a F3 skill to freeze the config. But that's too much work, they'll just tweak the numbers. 

 

oh lol yeah I was just thinking daredevils must be laughing at our dodge attack costing the endurance of 3 dodges. I didn't consider it on a dps comparison 😂

[LuRkEr.9462]

Damage across the board for vindicator feels terrible. Dodging to get the 15% buff is actually a dps loss because of how long it takes.

Vindicator was supposed to be the rev power spec yet old sword/sword renegade does more dps by far.

[Boho.2698]

It’s a Healing spec. The pieces are there for DPS but they currently don’t fit.

 

Vindicator or Legendary Alliance needs reliable ways of generating 100% uptime on either Resolution (to enable the Retribution line) or Fury (to enable the Invocation line), but currently lacks either. Changing the middle column 1 trait to Fury/Resolution instead of Might/Regen would help, though it’d make that trait mandatory for soloing.

 

Greatsword

2 and especially 3 feel too short. 5 has a janky cast time.

 

Legendary Alliance
The switch mechanic feels tacked on. There is no synergy between the two sides and there is no reward for using them both or in some kind of rhythm, so basically you just press the wrong colored abilities when you get a chance in order to get to the correct ones. 

 

You can also press F2 to swap all your abilities, which will make you wonder why F2 isn’t just a switch to control which color you have access to since, again, there is no synergy or reward for using both colors.

Red Elite does meh damage and applies a pointless condition and Blue Elite just animation locks and kills you, so maybe don’t press the Elite at all?

 

You lose a dodge and in exchange can control how expensive your dodge is. If you want it to do damage it costs the most because this is a healing spec. If you want it to recharge the fastest it also heals all the stuff around you for a lot because this is a healing spec. If you can’t make up your mind you can extend boons of everyone by two seconds by jumping on their heads like Mario, which will make people ask you why you gave up one of your dodges instead of just using Glint if you want to extend buffs? You shouldn’t pick that one because the best one is the healing one because this is a healing spec.

[Doctor.1384]

One dodge mechanic didnt work for mirage and it wont work here, game pacing with other classes is designed around having two dodges. The dodge attack takes too long and is easy for the enemy to dodge, the amount of time it allows them to reset and think makes dodging punishing to the rev. The dodge mechanic should be reworked to be like daredevil dodge except with two dodge bars, or removed altogether as the new legend mechanics are unique enough for the elite spec. At present state the way the dodge works makes the spec clunky and unplayable and will make it go the way of renegade in competitive game modes were the core idea was flawed to begin with and had to be propped up by overtuning renegade and shortbow numbers which then led to the core class being gutted. Here we go again guys

[Lily.1935]

Vindicator has a lot of problems from my testing. I don't really understand why it was designed this way. It seems like you were going for a Yin Yang approach to their utility but ultimately they fall flat.

 

Pros:

1. Greatsword feels really good. Might need some minor tweaks, but it could become my favorite greatsword in the game it feels that good.

Cons:

1. The Endurance mechanic is extremely punishing if you want to build into Damage. the Jump taking up 3 seconds of Air time is a nice dodge, but for damage it kills your DPS really hard. Where you would expect this to have a baseline 6-7k on average for how much you're putting into it you're only getting 2k. its damage is only slightly higher than the Greatsword 2 which can be used way more frequently and doesn't interrupt the flow of combat.
2. The Duel legend functions poorly with each other and the energy requirement of both will be eating into your energy rather quickly. This strains any and all builds trying to run this spec and makes otherwise good skills awful. The solution I'd suggest is a trait or two that locks you to one or the other or splitting them up as 2 legends entirely.
3. The F2 costing energy is absurd. This spec is already energy starved thanks to the high cost of the Utility skills and this starves them even more. The fact that you also need this skill to swap your skills just adds to the clunkiness of the spec overall.
4. The traits are pretty weak and trying to sure up the weaknesses of the endurance to make such a unrewarding mechanic work.
5. The Jump doesn't have enough movement speed when you're in the air.

What I would suggest for this spec is to Divide the Legends and make them 2 separate legends a player can choose. I'd also change the F2 skill to be a toggle skill that degenerates energy for endurance regeneration so we don't need so many traits fighting to give us a baseline for energy. Id also drastically reduce the hang time of the dodge and increase the movement speed greatly. Probably 2-1.5 seconds and 50%-75% movement speed. Next with the Jump Its damage should be increased to compensate for the time lost in the air when you're not dealing damage. at 2 seconds I'd say 5k or 4k baseline at 1.5. Of course numbers can always be adjusted.

[Kidel.2057]

a F3 skill to "lock" the current skill configuration would solve most issue and still keep the flavor of the double legend without making it ordinary (people are suggesting a second swap or a legend separation).

It would also provide some fresh customization for a class that can't be customized. 

[Loki.4871]

PvE feedback, in general: massive culture shock with the 'lack' of a 'proper' dodge, but it grew on me.

 

Positive stuff:

I like the 'feel' of most of the skills and spells. The class certainly works different to the others, and after getting used to the changed dodge mechanics I started to really enjoy it. The twin utilities are a bit weird obviously, however I enjoyed

I especially enjoy how 'alien' it is compared to the other greatswords, with sword 4 especially

Animations are fun, the few lines I heard were nice, but I'm the sort of person who nods through the stuff they enjoy and picks up on the stuff they didn't. So let's get on with...

 

Negative stuff:

It feels like it's build for killing crowds, which is fine... but these are spirits that set up Shiro to be offed by Vizuna, so in terms of fluff it's a bit weird their skills are tooled towards groups, especially the luxon skills. If you could trait it for them to be better at crowds... sure, but the reason I'm focusing on this is the moment I thought of this point, the next thought was "So isn't this just a fiddlier Shiro? Only not as streamlined/straightforward and takes an elite spec?" like how Mallyx is condition orientated and, thanks to it's skills, capable of removing buffs and mass tormenting enemies in melee.

 

Cosmetics: The F1/F2/stance status icon is hard to make out exactly. It took me a while to realise it was the champions back-to-back and reaching to the bottom right of the picture.

Greatsword 2's attack animation feels very... halfhearted? You're seemingly shattering the ground in a 180 degree arc but you're borderline wiffing the thing in the air. I suggest you tweak it so there's a pause and mist-essence visibly charges (vaguely akin to reaper's third strike of greatsword 1?) before a fast swing or take the overhead swing (ranger greatsword's Maul animation) and simply slam into the ground. Something to make it look like you're blasting the ground.

 

Skills:

Sword skill 5 feels underwhelming. What concerns me is it appears the explosions are random, so you have the potential for few, if any, to hit the same target twice. This might just be a visual thing, but it still concerned me enough to seldom bother with unless I was in a massive brawl (which I was sometimes, testing it in Verdant Brink)

Sword skill 2 feels underwhelming. The damage feels 'eh', the conditions aren't bad, it just... doesn't feel that powerful? It's also a pittance of energy and recharge time of 3 or 4 seconds so... eh.

Sword 4 is aesthetically great however, again, feels a bit 'bleh'. Instead of 'More damage' I would suggest something functionally similar but more visually impressive, akin to how the longsword autoattack has an explosion, a sort of shockwave to give a ranged attack, vulnerability, or... something.

 

The elites are functionally lacking imo. The spear is okay (add the sound of the dragonsblood spears from the thunderhead keep event when the spirit throws it?) but the windup time is long and I'm not entirely sure why it gets torment as a condition, or a condition at all. Certainly, the balance of strike damage vs condition damage is too tilted in the favour of condition damage. I'd syphon off some of that torment damage (and change it to bleeding) and have the actual blow of the spear do more damage.

 

The ashes are a much thornier issue for me. The revenant channels the spirits of heroes and villains to gain some of their powers in the fluff, so why is Saint Viktor's elite... his ashes? The physical remains of the man? Why? Well, I know why, it was in Guildwars I, as was the spear of Archemorus. You can get away with the spear because the sprit of Archemorus himself is throwing it, but the ashes are exactly that, ashes, an object. The functionality could be retained but instead of the ashes, have the spirit of Viktor floating over the character (like a ghostly backpack, using the gw1 pose as a reference?)

Speaking of the functionality, it feels underpowered. One thing that you should consider imo is the (positive) effects becoming more pronnounced the more you're hit.

 

The 'dodge':

Massive, massive 'culture shock'. Once I got used to it, it wasn't so bad, but there's quite a few enemies, especially in HoT where I was doing most of this, that can force you to dodge twice in a row. I hesitate to linger on this point however, because it's very clear that the 'invincibility frames' this has are far more than a standard single dodge. I wouldn't be shocked if a dev turned around and went "It's got the duration of 2 dodgerolls". The problem is previous content is perhaps designed to have 'dodge, pause, dodge' moments? Greatsword's block is solid, but  I would do the leap, then find myself struggling to survive despite have the trait that gave protection on landing. A blast finisher would be nice too, even if it's a traited thing.

 

Vigour, boons and diviner stat equipment:

I was using a slightly modified version of the presented build: I took Jalis' traitline for the edurance related buffs.

I cracked out ascended stat equipment for the character, beserker of course, and then used diviner armour/greatsword with rune of the firework (15% boon duration and vigour, might and fury when combat starts/every 20s or so)
What a difference. The leap was suddenly on-call regularly, the might was stacking up (I was reliably in the 20s, if not capped) and I felt more durable, felt far more powerful. I fear with it as-is, this concentration (and perhaps things that boost/give vigour) are almost a requirement. They simply made such difference

 

Traits:

Forerunner of Death takes a problem the Vindicator has (inability to dodge easily and negate damage) and exhacerbates it. The damage bonus is... fine... but the tradeoff is too nasty, imo. I think if this was retooled so it 'just' did a blast finisher and damage boost, it would make it perhaps more attractive.

 

Saint of Zu Heltzer is good, albiet the healing has me wondering; I don't think this is going to work well for actual healing, but it makes the jump more useable so 'eh'. Especially if you pair with Angsiyan's Trust (and you're not fighting a handful of enemies or a single 'boss' character). Paired with Reaver's Curse this does have some potential though so 'eh'.

 

Amnesty of Shing Jea: 240 units range is a miserable range. I strongly advise putting it up to at least 360, ideally a bit more so backliners can benefit from it.

 

-------

I like the elite spec but it definitely needs tweaking imo, basically. Overall:

-Thematically it makes no sense. For heroes famed for fighting a single tough opponent together, there's very little interaction between the spirits (eg, something a luxon skill 'preps' for a kurzick skill to have extra/more powerful functions, or vice versa.) and the abilities are all built around fighting multiple opponents. This is doubly bizzare because Mallyx can handle crowds with his mass tormenting, and Shiro's entire thing is a power build wading into a crowd and emerging victorious despite, er, impossible odds.

 

-Mechanically it's okay, but it isn't really bringing functionality to the table that other stances don't already. The leap is fun, and with the grandmaster trait Vassals of the Empire (and 50% boon duration) you get some ferocious protection and might but the leap itself, seemingly the 'signature effect' of the stance feels weak; a blast finisher, more damage, knockdown/knockback, stuns, there's stuff you can do here but there's nothing that makes me go "Oh wow, it was worth taking this stance!" with the skills or the leap.

 

-Some traits I've previously mentioned feel weak.

 

To any devs reading this, I hope it's been helpful. I personally feel the elite spec is missing something truely defining, something that makes it 'pop'. I can see the metaphorical fin in the water though, it needs that 'something' to surface up from the depths.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Loki.4871

[Kidel.2057]

Not only that. Saint's Shield is fast, lasting less than a second. Death Drop lasts 2.5 seconds and can take even longer if you have Slow. You can basically stay out of existance for 4-5 seconds for 2k damage and a dps buff, but no more dodge for 10 seconds (if you have MAX endurance generation and Energy sigils, otherwise it's 20 seconds)

[Ochosan.4071]

I love that so many people are chiming in with their feedback; this spec needs WORK but it's a good idea.

Traits are too single-minded on the dodge mechanic and leaves the spec feeling damage and/or boon starved in a way. 6/9 traits deal with the concept of endurance/vigor/dodge changing. This is certainly an area to review and improve IMO.

Only grandmaster trait that feels right is the 3rd - Saint's Shield/Saint of zu Heltzer. It doesn't ruin the flow of battle (too much) in comparison to the other two.  Death Drop is horrendous with it's delay and is almost like adding a Game Disconnect as a feature for the 3 seconds you're in the air. Goes without saying only being able to use this awkward damaging dodge (without boons) only once every 20 seconds feels very un-fun.

Alliance traits should reset on Legend swapping or something. Also Alliance abilities should have a drastically reduced cooldown as Energy is already a barrier to spamming abilities. Waiting 5-10 seconds is way overkill and slows down the gameplay.

Battle Dance feels wonky in it's current iteration. It needs to be instant. Why does a tumble back roll take 1/2 seconds to initiate? It just feels bad and should be instant.

GS3 looks and feels like it should have a short 0.5sec stealth or evade attached to it. But maybe that's just me.

GS4.1  Imperial Guard -> GS4.2 True Strike is very easy to interrupt due to the awkward baseball-swing-windup True Strike currently has. I hope something can be done about this as it also feels awful to use and is easy to interrupt.

GS5 feels insanely clunky with it's windup animation. 1.25 second cast for an RNG explosion skill? Surely this can be reduced as this also feels super weird to weave into any fight. Perhaps 0.5 seconds would feel much cleaner.

Spear Elite is awkward and non-interactive. Click once and wait 3 seconds for a spirit to windup an ok damaging spear. I wish this ability was just replaced overall.

Urn goes without saying how silly it is. Needs to be able to be double-tapped like Facets and not get interrupted mid-cast.  Odd and un-fun beta implementation, but good idea and can be good IMO.

[Kheron.9062]

I will echo others in saying that the animation lock after dodge is frustrating. The class would flow better if I can land then just go straight to moving around.

Again, as others have mentioned here and in the bug thread, GS3 is ~400 range dash and not the 900 the tooltip says.

Skill flipping on utilities is...interesting, though the shared CD feels unnecessary when we're limited by energy already. It's also annoyingly, needlessly complicated with the individual flips then the f2 flip-all. I like the theme of it for the Kurz/Lux alliance, but it feels un-fun in actual use.

The F2 feels boring and unrewarding, especially outside of Alliance stance.

I think that the utility skills shouldn't share CDs. If you're dead set on that, then the F2 should refresh the CDs. Being able to flow between your Kurzik and Luxon skills would actually make it feel like the two of them working together to take down my foes, acting in tandem. It's just slow and clunky as is.

The GS3 needs to be updated to the 900 range the tooltip says it is.

What I imagine with the Alliance stance is the battle between the two Legends we're invoking and Shiro, working in unison to weave together their attacks in a fast paced, relentless onslaught. To facilitate this, and maybe just because I really want this in general, I think some form of quickness would help (in addition to skill flip NOT sharing CD). Maybe a trait, either one of the minor traits everyone gets or a selectable one, where every skill flip gives a burst of quickness, so that the more I am flipping from Kurz > Lux > Kurz the more I am able to keep my wave of attacks going. It'd fit thematically, and feel rewarding. Perhaps a (slight) energy refund baked in on flips, too, or on the F2 since it is so unrewarding?

^the F2 could, in Alliance stance, flip your skills, grant you the quickness from all the flips, maybe a short burst of alac to help flip more, and refresh ENERGY in addition to/instead of endurance.

As it is, for a class based off two legendary warriors working together, it feels slow, clunky, unrewarding, and it makes me think that Shiro wasn't just a hard foe to take down but that everyone else was just plain incompetent.

[Loki.4871]

10 minutes ago, Ochosan.4071 said:

Spear Elite is awkward and non-interactive. Click once and wait 3 seconds for a spirit to windup an ok damaging spear. I wish this ability was just replaced overall.

I might be talking rubbish here, but my testing suggests that you can pop it and keep doing *stuff*. I've used it, then greatsword 3 and as I've smacked someone, I'm quite sure the spear slammed into them shortly after

[Kidel.2057]

1 minute ago, Loki.4871 said:

I might be talking rubbish here, but my testing suggests that you can pop it and keep doing *stuff*. I've used it, then greatsword 3 and as I've smacked someone, I'm quite sure the spear slammed into them shortly after

He probably knows that and was referring to the fact that the attack is delayed for some reason (like for giving the opponent time to evade it, despite not being good damage)

[Loki.4871]

Oh, I'll throw this in here too: the effect on the hands is... okay, but the colour changes come in 'waves' that are too obviously divided imo. Consider tweaking the visual so the flames are closer together, or tweak them so they're one single flame with the colours shifting and shimmering between each other so orange and blue flames lick around the revenant's hands together, instead of the current 'waves'

[Ochosan.4071]

4 minutes ago, Loki.4871 said:

I might be talking rubbish here, but my testing suggests that you can pop it and keep doing *stuff*. I've used it, then greatsword 3 and as I've smacked someone, I'm quite sure the spear slammed into them shortly after

You're certainly correct. I just don't like it because it's an elite skill that is "press and forget, hope enemy doesn't dodge or block 3 seconds later".

1 minute ago, Kidel.2057 said:

He probably knows that and was referring to the fact that the attack is delayed for some reason (like for giving the opponent time to evade it, despite not being good damage)

Correct! It's telegraphed, press and forget, slow, and not much payoff. Could be much better.

[Loki.4871]

Just now, Ochosan.4071 said:

You're certainly correct. I just don't like it because it's an elite skill that is "press and forget, hope enemy doesn't dodge or block 3 seconds later".

I *think* I get what they're going for: you can use it to snipe an unaware enemy, or you can pop it, then (because it's got a very low energy cost compared to other elites and even some attack skills) you can close the gap, put preassure on the enemy and while they're distracted by you, get smacked; or focus on the spear and get smacked.

 

How good that's actually working out in practice? Ehhh..... I'd want more testing.

[Loules.8601]

1 hour ago, Kidel.2057 said:

That's actually not a bad idea. 

 

F2: trades energy for endurance (like on any legend that's not Alliance)

F3: new skill - LOCKS Alliance skills in the current configuration. 

So instead of 3 legends we have 2, but with skill swap like other specs? 
I think that’s very boring idea and kill all uniqueness from this spec. Will be just another generic melee profession.

[Kidel.2057]

2 minutes ago, Loki.4871 said:

I *think* I get what they're going for: you can use it to snipe an unaware enemy, or you can pop it, then (because it's got a very low energy cost compared to other elites and even some attack skills) you can close the gap, put preassure on the enemy and while they're distracted by you, get smacked; or focus on the spear and get smacked.

 

How good that's actually working out in practice? Ehhh..... I'd want more testing.

I get what you're saying, but it needs more damage or other effects to be impactful. As it is the enemy may decide to just take it or easily dodge/block it. Should be at least unblockable or do something like remove boons or CC.

CC is indeed much needed. 

 

🙏 Also please separate the loadout management on F2 from the endurance recharge. 

It serously makes no sense that I have to PAY ENERGY to manage my loadout. And tha way it's managed is terrible. 

Just make a F3 skill that allows to "lock" the loadout.

[suialthor.7164]

Overly complicated and not fun.

• Separate the two legends if you want to keep both 
• Stop using dodge for other purposes 
• Endurance juggling on top of everything else is a bad choice
• Frequent animation lock

 

[Kidel.2057]

Just now, Loules.8601 said:

So instead of 3 legends we have 2, but with skill swap like other specs? 
I think that’s very boring idea and kill all uniqueness from this spec. Will be just another generic melee profession.

No, not at all. 

Other people are suggesting a skill swap between them, I'm not. I AGREE with you, that'd be boring as hell. Another legend swap? No thanks.

 

What I'm saying is: you get the flipover, but once you press F3 the skills don't flip anymore. You get your current loadout configuration frozen. If you need them to change you toggle F3 again. 

Basically instead od flipping them, you freeze them. This way you can "customize" yur loadout on the fly. 

[Loki.4871]

I can't speak for others; I understand what you're saying, I dislike it though. One of the interesting things (I didn't mention, I realise typing this) is how the skill flipping can really shake up your combat. Opening with one skill will change the 'rhthym' of the battle with something to when you open with another. This is something I rather enjoy, as it means you can get to adapt on the fly to things happening unlike any other class or elite spec. I would like this interaction to be played up more however, as I mentally imagine this 'cycling' is an echo of the battle with Shiro: one Achemodus attacking one moment, before Viktor defends in another, or Viktor creating an opening that Archemodus exploits. If anything, I feel this should be leaned into somehow mechanically. That activating a luxon skill could 'prep' it's kurzick counterpart or vice versa for a more signficicant effect. EG, you use the kurzick leap, and then the luxon one gets some kind of bonus; more damage, a cripple, better cooldown, less energy cost... something.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Loki.4871