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Bladesworn Feedback Thread


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3 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

"What makes an elite spec really awesome? You kind of have a design goal coming in - With Spectre, it's a ' Support Thief '. "

"The ability to mitigate damage is the unique thing that Thief now has access to with this specialization."

- Cal Cohen

 

What was the design goal of the Bladesworn? What new tools does it offer to the Warrior class?

Lacking one, does it not fail your own metrics for what makes an elite spec really awesome? 

There's absolutely no way the insanely high damage stays on the spec for balance and design reasons. Once you remove that, what is this other than a bad Berserker that does maybe a few k more damage?

 

Well said. I really hope they see the anger and frustration they brought up with this e-spec and hopefully they realize at least some of our improvement suggestions.

 

Btw they also said they gave teleports and shadowstep to everyone hence why thief gets even more of them... so maybe I'm blind, but did I miss all the insane teleports on warrior? Ah wait we got that millimeter port while in DT, right!

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5 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

 

There's absolutely no way the insanely high damage stays on the spec for balance and design reasons. Once you remove that, what is this other than a bad Berserker that does maybe a few k more damage?

But what if it stays hight DPS (i know, it wouldn't fix this spec) , this would mean berserker loose is use.
A e-spec is a new gameplay use of a class, doing the same thing than a older e-spec isn't a spec ,this is a conflict, a fail of  role.
This e-spec should open for a new way to play war , not rejoining the other specs for the DPS race.

Just look at the other e-spec created they give new role to the class even if for some it's no good rigth now (Thisis a beta ,so hoping for fixes) BUT not war we are stuck in one role and we're gonna stay there.

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12 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

"What makes an elite spec really awesome? You kind of have a design goal coming in - With Spectre, it's a ' Support Thief '. "

"The ability to mitigate damage is the unique thing that Thief now has access to with this specialization."

- Cal Cohen

 

What was the design goal of the Bladesworn? What new tools does it offer to the Warrior class?

Lacking one, does it not fail your own metrics for what makes an elite spec really awesome? 

There's absolutely no way the insanely high damage stays on the spec for balance and design reasons. Once you remove that, what is this other than a bad Berserker that does maybe a few k more damage?

I think people are getting confused here. What I see Cal talking about is a different way to play ... Playing Thief as a support build IS different. 

You don't see Bladesworn as a different way to play Warrior maybe? I do, EVEN if that difference is not as pronounced as Support Thief is. That's what is different here ... the amount of differentiation on Specter is massive from it's counterparts. While Bladesworn is different, the amount of differentiation is definitely not as big as it is on Specter. I don't think that's an indication of a failure to meet a design goal. I think it's an indication that their design target to intro Bladesworn for a Warrior was DIFFERENT than Specter for a Thief. We have to remember that these concepts aren't derived from gaps in roles in the class. They are derived from the story and the lore of the game. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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51 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think people are getting confused here. What I see Cal talking about is a different way to play ... Playing Thief as a support build IS different. 

You don't see Bladesworn as a different way to play Warrior maybe? I do, EVEN if that difference is not as pronounced as Support Thief is. That's what is different here ... the amount of differentiation on Specter is massive from it's counterparts. While Bladesworn is different, the amount of differentiation is definitely not as big as it is on Specter. I don't think that's an indication of a failure to meet a design goal. I think it's an indication that their design target to intro Bladesworn for a Warrior was DIFFERENT than Specter for a Thief. We have to remember that these concepts aren't derived from gaps in roles in the class. They are derived from the story and the lore of the game. 

Still trash 

 

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1 minute ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Still trash 

 

OK maybe ... and we know if that's true by Anet's metrics, they will change it. But they won't see that until it's played. The reality is that there isn't likely much we are going to do to sway Anet from the concept ... it's done. There are probably some design improvements (personally, I see some redundancies in Dragontrigger that would be good to address) and in extreme cases, some toning down/up of values. That's all anyone should expect on release. 

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Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

OK maybe ... and we know if that's true by Anet's metrics, they will change it. But they won't see that until it's played. The reality is that there isn't likely much we are going to do to sway Anet from the concept ... it's done. There are probably some design improvements (personally, I see some redundancies in Dragontrigger that would be good to address) and in extreme cases, some toning down/up of values. That's all anyone should expect on release. 

I don't pay for trash. 

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1 minute ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

I know. And as every customer I put it on the forum for anet to see that I am displeased with their content. Ez clap

OK ... the relevant question here isn't if you are displeased though. It's understanding Anet's process. I can assure you that whether you pay or not, it will be a while before Anet can decide if people aren't playing the class to their satisfaction. 

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1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK ... the relevant question here isn't if you are displeased though. It's understanding Anet's process. I can assure you that whether you pay or not, it will be a while before Anet can decide if people aren't playing the class to their satisfaction. 

Cash grab expac goes brrrrrr

 

Layoffs hurt this studio and it shows.

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13 hours ago, Jzaku.9765 said:

"What makes an elite spec really awesome? You kind of have a design goal coming in - With Spectre, it's a ' Support Thief '. "

"The ability to mitigate damage is the unique thing that Thief now has access to with this specialization."

- Cal Cohen

 

What was the design goal of the Bladesworn? What new tools does it offer to the Warrior class?

Lacking one, does it not fail your own metrics for what makes an elite spec really awesome? 

There's absolutely no way the insanely high damage stays on the spec for balance and design reasons. Once you remove that, what is this other than a bad Berserker that does maybe a few k more damage?

I’d argue there’s more design goals behind blades worn and none behind zerker. Blades worn is supposed to be a massive damage dealer. Berserker should be condition heavy (and I intend to make a post on this in the future) with a focus on condition burst DPS, but instead has slowly morphed into a direct damage dealer. This is further reinforced with torch being considered, the theme being flames and burning, etc. 

What I’m trying to say is the problem isn’t a lack of design goal with blades worn, as the goal is, imo, clear from the beginning. Instead, it’s deviation from the goal of other especially so as to have no effective builds at all, then creating one that overlaps with the others. 
If there are proper changes made to zerker to be the condition spec it was intended to be in the first place, suddenly everything starts to come together a little better; condi spec (zerker), utility spec (spell), direct damage spec (blade). 
Just my opinion though. Basically fix berserker (and core) and the problems with spec overlap go away 🙂 

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1 hour ago, oscuro.9720 said:

I’d argue there’s more design goals behind blades worn and none behind zerker. Blades worn is supposed to be a massive damage dealer. Berserker should be condition heavy (and I intend to make a post on this in the future) with a focus on condition burst DPS, but instead has slowly morphed into a direct damage dealer. This is further reinforced with torch being considered, the theme being flames and burning, etc. 

What I’m trying to say is the problem isn’t a lack of design goal with blades worn, as the goal is, imo, clear from the beginning. Instead, it’s deviation from the goal of other especially so as to have no effective builds at all, then creating one that overlaps with the others. 
If there are proper changes made to zerker to be the condition spec it was intended to be in the first place, suddenly everything starts to come together a little better; condi spec (zerker), utility spec (spell), direct damage spec (blade). 
Just my opinion though. Basically fix berserker (and core) and the problems with spec overlap go away 🙂 

The thing is none of this changes have been hinted at so IF tomorow(or not, i don't care for the date) berserker , spellbreaker and core are reworked to acommodated this point of view ,this is a massive change just  to explain the place of this new spec, too much work (but necessary) . SO your argument not great because it would mean they didn't tell us in any way, that is the best way too burn a community (But yeah please be real it would explain so much).

Seriously tell us anet 
 

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30 minutes ago, DemonCrypto.6792 said:

 

The thing is none of this changes have been hinted at so IF tomorow(or not, i don't care for the date) berserker , spellbreaker and core are reworked to acommodated this point of view ,this is a massive change just  to explain the place of this new spec, too much work (but necessary) . SO your argument not great because it would mean they didn't tell us in any way, that is the best way too burn a community (But yeah please be real it would explain so much).

Seriously tell us anet 
 

I’m very well aware this is all just speculation based on the initial design goals of each spec. I wasn’t trying to argue that this is the direction anet was intending to take or anything, sorry if it came across that way. 
It was more of “if you are sitting there with a board of the design goals of each spec, bladesworn fits in perfectly”, but reality and the original design intentions have deviated from each other, resulting in multiple specs all filling the same role.

Ive been playing a lot of seeker (more than I ever wanted to because I hate zerker) and in the next week will post a trait rework thread if you want to see what an actual condi zerker line would look like in my eyes 🙂 

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1 hour ago, medivh.4725 said:

So Bladesworn will work just with mainhand sword? Or needs combine with the offhand pistol?

I thought the sword sheild combi looked badas.s for my medieval warrior

It doesn’t matter what your off set is. I was running sword+axe most of the beta (for the bulls charge+axe4/5 on off set plus mobility on sword), but I tried some axe+shield and GS as well (and pistol but it was very meh compared to shield and axe).
The gunsaber is just the gunsaber. It’s not predicated on weapon set. 

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12 hours ago, medivh.4725 said:

So Bladesworn will work just with mainhand sword? Or needs combine with the offhand pistol?

I thought the sword sheild combi looked badas.s for my medieval warrior

It actually suits it. Sword Shield I found very ok to use with Arms/Disc BsW. 

 

Then again the whole design is clunky and the numbers bad so it didn't live up to the expectations.. 

 

It rly suits my builds of dagger/shield SpB, mace/shield Zerker and axe/shield Core. 

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I'd like to suggest dragonslashes damage go up in pvp & wvw, and you also maintain your adrenaline outside combat. I would like for Dragonslashes to be available from any weapon. And switching between your weapon, gunblade and dragonslash should feel pretty seamless. Lastly, please consider adding a skin for the Gunblade, to allow players to customize it's looks. Such as making it look like other Greatswords. I realize it's part of the aesthetic, but for the drawing animation, if I'm playing with a greatsword, I want to be able to sheath and draw for my dragonslashes, all with a single animation/skin. 

 

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a bit disappointed, warrior is my 2nd most played class and it got the only elite spec i disliked this expac. 

ive never been a big fan of greatsword and bladesworn just gives up so much for a marginally cooler greatsword. pistol seems neat, but not neat enough to give up nearly every other weapon on the weaponmaster class. the funny thing is my personal idea for a warrior elite spec also disabled weapon swap, but that was cause the idea was giving them 3 weapon sets with an F button for each sets burst skill, giving the weaponmaster even more weapons to work with, not less. i want to like the explosion and ammo interactions like Major Master trait Fierce as Fire, but you've given up so many condi skills to use the gunsaber. 

at least im content with spellbreaker, cause im not sure theres a way for them to salvage bladesworn into something i personally will enjoy. 

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Above all: Dragonslash should not be jumpable.

Forgive this being a bit "late" but I wanted to get a preview of all of the new specs to see approximately the "power level" that professions were going to land at, and more accurately compile my notes before posting this. So hopefully it still gets read. 🙂

Bladesworn Notes & Feedback:

Bladesworn is a cool idea let down by the core kit on warrior being in a pretty anemic & non-synergestic state atm. The below easy modifications to bladesworn will help it feel more fluid on EoD release while avoiding drastic power creep, and leave room for balance of the issues to the core warrior kit in the future.

------------------------------------------

Core Warrior Design:

I’m prepared to have this post downvoted to oblivion, but just decrease their base toughness by 100 or 200 already AND make “Fast Hands” baseline. I’ve elaborated on this before but with the aggressive stat escalation in the game what defines warrior more than any other aspect in every game mode these days is no longer their higher-than-average tankiness, but the ability to take the Discipline trait line & have a 5 second weapon swap cooldown. It is simply not possible to make a viable warrior build EVEN WITH THE ADDITION OF AMMUNITION to the core kit, without Discipline simply due to the fact that it awards you the ability to have “as many buttons to push” as every other class. Whatever you do “Fast Hands” needs to be made baseline similar to how “Illusionary Persona” was on mesmer before HoT release.

 

Core Bladesworn Class Design:

Charging for 5 seconds feels like poop to play. Especially in PvP and ESPECIALLY in WvW, (where mobility is king.) Despite basically erasing this "sit & wait" gameplay style from the early post-PoF release Deadeye, it’s being put on the new Drag-gunner. If this intended Iaijutsu (quick-draw) style is going to be committed to here are some suggestions to make it feel less like poop to play:

Potential Fix(es):

1) Baseline Charge Level Variations -> By default if you get:

  2.5s / 5 Bullets Charge -> Dragonslash should be unblindable

  4s / 8 Bullets Charge -> Should also be unblockable

  5s / 10 Bullets Full Charge -> Should also be unevadeable

2) Baseline Movement Variants:

 Dragonslash toggles you to “walking” movement and charges at normal rate while doing so.

 If you do not move while charging it doubles the rate at which Dragonslash charges

*Since the trait "Daring Dragon" lowers the charge level to 2.5s / 5 bullets anyway, it would only proc the "unblindable" variant, and that's at then maximum charge. Preventing it from blowing out too hard in PvP-focused game modes.

 

Weapon Skills:

Pistol, having no actual projectile / ranged moves, feels redundant in the "burst damage" space that off-hand axe already dominates. It is however, very obviously there to repeatedly proc all of the major-tier traits in competitive game modes with the option to build up ammunition for a fully charged “Dragon’s Roar.” THIS IS REALLY COOL PLEASE DO NOT CHANGE THIS. That being said skill 4 still feels somewhat weak.

Gunstinger (Pistol 4): 300 Range is unacceptably short for a movement move. Even Shield Bash (Shield 4) Is both a leap finisher and 450 range.

Potential Alteration(s): Increase the range to 450. If gunstinger hits: Recharge 3 ammunition of Dragon's Roar (Pistol 5). If it doesn't: Fully Recharge the cooldown of the last used main-hand Warrior Warrior Weapon Skill, but add that skill's remaining cooldown to the cooldown of Gunstinger.

 *Synergy: Recharge the Offensive-ish Block on Mace, Recharge 1 Charge of Axe Throw (Potentially allowing it to again trigger Major ("On last charge use") traits. Recharge Sword 2 leap. (Allowing for greater mobility & a potential option to compete with greatsword in terms of mobility, while still permitting the bladesworn to use their Specialization Weapon.)

*Also since both "Gunstinger" and "Dragon's Roar" move you they should count as movement skills for the purposes of traits like "Warrior's Sprint" and "Swift as the Wind."

*Alsoalso the name "Gunstinger" kind of doesn't fit with the whole theme of the Dragunner specialization & should probably be renamed "Waking the Dragon" or something thematic to that effect.

 

Gunsaber Weapon Skills:

Steel Divide: (The Auto Attack 2) - Should have the explosion on it.

Explosive Thrust: (The Auto Attack 3) - Should fire an explosive projectile slash similar to holosmith's traited "Crystal Configuration: Storm"

Cyclone Trigger: (Gunsaber 4) - Needs an "Explosion" on it.

Break Step: (Gunsaber 5) - The aftercast is wayyyyyyyy too long to the point where you cover more distance by actually just running with swiftness. It also absolutely needs to be a blast finisher to combo with the light field utility skill. Honestly the animation on it as a whole feels clunky & it would be better if you just copy the utility / functionality of “Rocket Boots” wholesale, but with reduced range. It’s an undervalued fun aspect that you can use true leap skills like “Savage Leap” and “Rocket Boots” to boost off cliffs & traverse gaps.

 

Dragon Trigger Skills:

Dragon Slash - Reach: 900 Range is pitifully short for this.

Potential Fix(es): Have the range also vary based on charge amount: From 600 - 2000 based on charge time similar to the scaling on holosmith damage vs heat level. This would give that feeling of "Hugely powerful Slash" while fitting with the balance of the Vindicator's "Spear of Archemorus" (where is a powerful attack that is hugely ranged) but has to charge beforehand providing a fun skill with lots of counterplay.

 

Traits:

“Fierce as Fire”: The burning on this is pointless, & this needs to have an “explosion” on it, even if it is just a copy of the engineer’s hidden “Flame Shell” skill.

"Unyielding Dragon" (Grandmaster Middle): Even in the current design state the stun on this trait makes little sense. If the stun is intended for PvE (to help with breakbars) this won't matter as a fully-charged dragon trigger does enough damage to outright skip most boss phases anway if used at proper thresholds. And that's for bosses that actually take damage during their break phases.

For the few encounters that don’t take damage during break phases it also doesn't make sense to charge / use Dragon Trigger at all for them anyway because it has such a long cast time & you should be using actual break skills / having break-oriented party / squad members take care of this. Saving your valuable Dragon Trigger hit for when the bosses are again vulnerable to damage.

Potential Fix(es): Change it to a more versatile trait that affects how Bladesworn / Dra-guner plays (similar to the other 2). Suggestion: Make it restore the ability to weapon-swap but make each weapon that is not currently equipped share a swap cooldown (including the gunsaber.) -- Effectively adding the variety of a 3rd weapon set, without blowing out the power creep of the class too hard by adding "more possible actions per minute" by giving it basically elementalist attunement swap.

 

Utility Skills:

Electric Fence and Bulletproof Barrier: These feel redundant.

Potential Fix(es): They Should both do the same thing but have the duration cut to 3 seconds. 

 

Dragonspike Mine: This is never ever ever going to get used compared to "Shake It Off."

Potential Fix(es): It should probably just be an ammunition skill with 1 ammunition so it can be reloaded by the elite skill, without blowing out in power.

Side Note: As a 4th Utility I'd like to see a mobility skill like rocket boots. Something that's not a stunbreak, but that provides an alternative to Bull's Charge. Honestly just give Bladesworn rocket boots, it's basically perfect for them. Maybe with shorter range (600) but that allows the Bladesworn to attack while flying through the air.

Alternatively you could just make dragonspike mine a targetable dash similar to Willbender’s F2 dash.

**Potential Future Non-Balance Iterations: Please make the trail on the gunsaber vary based on if / which Legendary weapon you have equipped. If you're going to force the profession to use 1 standard "kit" weapon it would be nice if we could fashion-wars it a bit.

------------------------------------------

Bladesworn is fun, radical idea somewhat hamstrung by the current state of warrior balance revolving around select aspects of their core kit: Including their higher toughness pool, ammunition aoe stun break "Shake It Off," etc. Personally I feel that the above changes would unlock the "fun" potential of this spec without power creeping it too hard. As well as leave space open for both Bladesworn & Warrior balance in the future.

 

Edited by PseudoOAlias.4279
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Anet, ignore this ^person's^ comment on toughness unless you plan on giving out more evades, barrier, blinds, aegis, blocks, teleports, and shadowsteps to warrior.

They are right though that the Core kit needs to be improved upon and is part of why Bladesworn is so utterly terrible in competitive play.

Edited by Lan Deathrider.5910
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Reduce charge time, at least in PvP and WvW. Or increase the damage it does. Personally, I feel like the damage is fine for PvP, you don't want it oneshotting people, but it really should have a shorter charge to full time. Especially since the animation is so apparent which gives it counter play. While charging people could simply prepare to evade, run or port out of range, go invisible, etc.

 

Allow weapon swap in combat. I know people are going to say that warrior shouldn't have "three" weapon kits, but it makes sense with the lore of the class since they are the master of arms. A literal walking armoury. Additionally, warriors gave up adrenaline for flow, it doesn't make much sense to also take away weapon swap, a thing that is crucial to warrior. Personally, I asked other warrior mains what they thought and they agreed. They even opted for choosing to have reduced ammo on the gunblade as compensation for it.

 

Address trait line concerns. I imagine this will be mentioned/fixed before the expac but I think it's crucial that I mention it. Many existing trait lines contradict bladesworn like berserker's power in the strength line that gives increased damage depending on adrenaline (a system that doesn't exist for bladesworn as it was replaced with flow). Some similar ones include: cleansing ire and burst mastery. Furthermore, "To The Limit", a skill that gives the warrior ALL of his adrenaline, gives absolutely nothing in terms of flow.

 

Pistol range is underwhelming, pistol 4 is 300 range which pushes you into melee. Pistol 5 is 240. I understand why you don't want warrior to have absurd range, but at the end of the day it pales in comparison when other classes have 900 range with the pistol. It's pretty much a range weapon without being a range weapon. I'm not saying it should have the standard 900 range, but it should definitely be increased to somewhere around 500-600.

 

Lastly, a niche I have with the gunsaber is the inability to stow it. Not only would it be nice to have it on your back while waiting for an event or META (I hope skins come out for the saber) but it also serves the combat role of cancelling animations which is something pivotal for PvP.

Edited by UnknownZepphyre.9763
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WvW: Pistol mainhand would flow well, copy-paste perhaps with a reload chain (1 charge) on third strike. Within WvW equipment this is rifle vs. horn, horn is key however mangled. Axe vs. rifle seems to be the Bladesworn conception, however offhand within WvW is too crucial.
Rifle also loses its 1500 range burst, so the rifle mechanics seem better as a Bladesworn taste test for core Warrior.

Either Dragon Slash damage scaling needs to be a threat to squads or this class needs to cycle weapons for pressure & action economy. Hammer 2 is easier to land & hits harder than a full charge Dragon Slash. It reminds me of the recent Arc Divide wet noodle. Bladesworn is also so busy with shouts & attacking that it struggles to utilize the 600 range Electric Fence or non-shouts.

Immerseful profession! Thanks for the betas & I hope to see it polished

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I've been thinking about the Bladeworn and the concept of a more tactical playstyle is welcome, especially given that the Core-Warrior, Spellbreaker, and Berserker essentially have a Barbarian-style gamplay. This meshes well with the general playstyle of the game as being fluid and kinetic.

The presence of charges and charging the Dragon Slash is counter to this general playstyle since the charges comes with the tradeoff of long cooldowns and self-rooting when using Dragon Slash runs counter to this idea.

In my eyes the concept is solid and the execution will always feel empty, even though it'll be a meme-spec, and needs to be remade from the ground up.

I've been thinking of ways to retain the concept of a Warrior taking a far more tatical approach while retaining the general feel of fluidity and kineticism.

Retain the name-change from Adrenaline to Focus as it's more accurate to the narrative of the spec.

Instead of charges give all the -Skills of the Bladesworn a new effect called Exploit Weakness. Exploit Weakness is a Boon that activates whenever the Bladesworn takes damage, it lasts for 1 sec or so (number subject to tweaks). When a Skill is used during Exploit Weakness the effect of the -Skill are improved either by increased damage or increased effects in Boons gained or Conditions given.

The Dragon Slash would also have to be changed to a more Burst-like one to avoid the self-root and the blink removed as using a skill like that wil always have an increased brain-lag than simply stepping left. To see this in practice just go into Twilight Oasis and imagine how it would be to do the last boss-fight without regular movement.

This would be true to the concept as the gameplay-feel of the Bladesworn would be more tactical while at the same time remaining true to the general gameplay of fluidity and kineticism as they have the option to just blow all their -Skills and also have the option of using their -Skills in a more tactical way that rewards that type of gameplay while giving no punishment for playing with a Barbarian-style mindset.

This would mean that all the -Skills of  the Bladesworn has to be changed and that's a price that's worth paying as it would make the gameplay of the spec more congruent with the general gameplay of the game instead of being massively incongruent to it..

Edited by Malus.2184
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2 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

I've been thinking about the Bladeworn and the concept of a more tactical playstyle is welcome,

Hundred blades was our tactical playstile for years when gw2 launched. So if anything, this espec is going backwards to a hundred blades on steroids. Again, nothing new on this espec.

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