Astralporing.1957 Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 2 hours ago, Norbe.7630 said: I will repeat, the current consequences of those type of players is match imbalances which plagued WvW for years. Nah. Those are caused by primarily WvW guilds bandwagoning on low pop servers that end up linked to high-pop ones. It's not the casual players that cause those, but shifts among the dedicated WvW playerbase. 2 hours ago, Norbe.7630 said: But yeah... sure how many guilds you would like to add? I propose 99 guild slots, one for each max toon slots you can have. Which one will you represent? How many game modes can you play? You wanna flood your chat box with those guildies chatting randomly? I did not say that i think added guild slots will fix the issue. Nor did i say i know of any other way to fix it. Or even that this change is unneeded or definitely harmful for WvW. I just said that there will be issues that will come with it, and those issues will negatively affect certain part of playerbase. Nothing you said, btw, points to you thinking otherwise - you just do not care about those players getting hurt by this change. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbe.7630 Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 25 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Nah. Those are caused by primarily WvW guilds bandwagoning on low pop servers that end up linked to high-pop ones. It's not the casual players that cause those, but shifts among the dedicated WvW playerbase. I did not say that i think added guild slots will fix the issue. Nor did i say i know of any other way to fix it. Or even that this change is unneeded or definitely harmful for WvW. I just said that there will be issues that will come with it, and those issues will negatively affect certain part of playerbase. Nothing you said, btw, points to you thinking otherwise - you just do not care about those players getting hurt by this change. The new system should elimininate that bandwagoning problem by introducing limited slots. Yeah i know you did not say that, but those are general questions since the thread is all about adding and adding and adding guilds for guild halls every now and then. Have you experienced your chat box been flooded by your different guilds talking to each other simultaneously on the current 5 guild limit? Before its just whisper bots annoys me when you enter pvp lobby selling gold i almost had my block list on full from those bots alone. Now, if people have 7 PvE guilds and 1 WvW guild, can you imagine what would his/her chatbox would look like? Heres the fun part, pay attention, if add and add and add guilds is the meta because people cry friends won't see each other so Anet gave them what they want... Does the Map chat at Team chat will still be viable? Or people will just talk to their own guilds doing their own things with their own friends.... Look at PvE raid, instead of searching and mingling with others and creating healthy environment, the discord Raid community existed, what happened to the lfg ingame? ...dead.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, Norbe.7630 said: The new system should elimininate that bandwagoning problem by introducing limited slots. Yes, but for the same reason (limited slots), and the same desire (being on the winning side), it will push towards way stricter filtering WvW guild members than is the case now. Quote Yeah i know you did not say that, but those are general questions since the thread is all about adding and adding and adding guilds for guild halls every now and then. Oh, i do not think adding more guild slots is going to help there. Because the main cause of the problem i am talking about is that limited number of alliance slots, and ability of alliances of voting on whom to admit and whom to not admit. I'm simply pointing out that the change is a mixed blessing. It's going to help with some things, but cause problems in others. I guess it will take time to see whether the longterm negative consequences (and those will happen) will outweight the positive ones or not. Quote Look at PvE raid, instead of searching and mingling with others and creating healthy environment, the discord Raid community existed, what happened to the lfg ingame? ...dead.... Raids ended up that way (dead) for the very thing that will be happening in WvW - players being able to choose who they want to play with (and who they should filter out). Except in case of raids the reasons for doing that were at least justified way better, due to content itself being quite demanding. Besides, WvW is mostly running on discord communication already, so... Edited September 23, 2021 by Astralporing.1957 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Oh, i do not think adding more guild slots is going to help there. Because the main cause of the problem i am talking about is that limited number of alliance slots, and ability of alliances of voting on whom to admit and whom to not admit. Anet hasnt said anything about "voting" on whom to admit. I have little doubt its decided either by the alliance leader (if free slots) or the guild leader (if delegated and reserved slots). Thats like saying a guild has the ability to vote on whom to admit which is like... yes? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said: Anet hasnt said anything about "voting" on whom to admit. I have little doubt its decided either by the alliance leader (if free slots) or the guild leader (if delegated and reserved slots). Thats like saying a guild has the ability to vote on whom to admit which is like... yes? yes, that's what i meant. Curently, you have no control over who is on your server or not - all you can control (to a certain degree) is on which server you are. When the alliances go in, access to the alliances will be controlled by players themselves. So, currently there's no real reason for guilds being very strict about player admission (because them being in your guild or not has absolutely no bearing on them being able to access your WvW server), but that will no longer be true in the new system. If you think that this will not result in those guilds starting to prefilter membership, and that criteria for guild admission won't become more strict than they are now, you're very naive. Honestly, i will not be surprised if, when the system finally goes live, some of the players that already are in WvW guilds and would be willing to pick them as their designated WvW choice, won't be able to do that because they will be asked to leave. Edited September 23, 2021 by Astralporing.1957 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 10 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: yes, that's what i meant. Curently, you have no control over who is on your server or not - all you can control (to a certain degree) is on which server you are. When the alliances go in, access to the alliances will be controlled by players themselves. So, currently there's no real reason for guilds being very strict about player admission (because them being in your guild or not has absolutely no bearing on them being able to access your WvW server), but that will no longer be true in the new system. If you think that this will not result in those guilds starting to prefilter membership, and that criteria for guild admission won't become more strict than they are now, you're very naive. Honestly, i will not be surprised if, when the system finally goes live, some of the players that already are in WvW guilds and would be willing to pick them as their designated WvW choice, won't be able to do that because they will be asked to leave. But you can only "control" your little guild/alliance. For the average guild/alliance, probably 95%+ of the team is completely beyond your control. That all Anet matchmaking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayra.7405 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) On 9/21/2021 at 10:10 PM, LSD.4673 said: Did someone say new gem store item? Each additional Guild Slot 1000gems (up to a linit of say 10), why not 🙂 If you stayed more than 5 years on your WvW-Server you get one for free🙂 If you transfered more than 5 times in total, cost per slot increases to 2000 gems Edited September 23, 2021 by Dayra.7405 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said: But you can only "control" your little guild/alliance. Sure, but at ful cap, that is already 25% of everything (they mentioned that they will aim at team sizes of around 4x full cap alliance). Remember SPvP and duo queues? Those that duo queued had massive advantage over those that went solo, even though they could control only 20% of the remaining team. And it's especially because you will not be able to influence the rest that you will be incentivized to use what you can influence to the maximum efficiency. An alliance of 500 full time WvWers will have massive advantage over smaller alliances and/or alliances filled with a mix of fulltimers and semi-casual WvWers. Any WvW guild that will be serious about the content willl basically have to end up in a fully dedicated 500-player strong alliance. If they won't, they will be willingly handicapping themselves. Edited September 23, 2021 by Astralporing.1957 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibson.4036 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: An alliance of 500 full time WvWers will have massive advantage over smaller alliances and/or alliances filled with a mix of fulltimers and semi-casual WvWers. Any WvW guild that will be serious about the content willl basically have to end up in a fully dedicated 500-player strong alliance. If they won't, they will be willingly handicapping themselves. It will be interesting to find out just how many 500 person leet WvW alliances the population can suport, and what that will do to matchmaking. Also, will those alliances form 500 person farm team alliances to train up and identify those who will eventually move to the leet alliance? Edited September 23, 2021 by Gibson.4036 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbe.7630 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Yes, but for the same reason (limited slots), and the same desire (being on the winning side), it will push towards way stricter filtering WvW guild members than is the case now. Oh, i do not think adding more guild slots is going to help there. Because the main cause of the problem i am talking about is that limited number of alliance slots, and ability of alliances of voting on whom to admit and whom to not admit. From what i understood you just want to increase the capacity of alliance member slots? Whats the difference between a 500 to over 9999 alliance slot for your case? You prefer servers, so that you can get pass through WvW than an elitist alliance screening and fine tuning their roster? Are your friends that WvW elitist to even not include you on the 500 slot? What if, let say the slot is increase to over 9000, would that still be your problem because the alliance you want to play with a friend only wants full timers...? I wish you know WvW people buys alt account to just to play with their friends on different servers. I want you to see that. Edited September 23, 2021 by Norbe.7630 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbe.7630 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 19 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: 9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Raids ended up that way (dead) for the very thing that will be happening in WvW - players being able to choose who they want to play with (and who they should filter out). Except in case of raids the reasons for doing that were at least justified way better, due to content itself being quite demanding. Besides, WvW is mostly running on discord communication already, so... Nothing you said, btw, points to you thinking otherwise - you just do not care about those players getting hurt by this change. So, shall i connect the dots for you now? I love how you said me not thinking lol. I could have given a PvE Meta or Fractals but i presented you with Raid. You are the one who is not thinking. You think that a PvE 10 man person raid mentality will be the same to WvW 500+xxx number right, However you only want to play with the 500 not the xxx people. I smell elitism here. Edited September 23, 2021 by Norbe.7630 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 22 minutes ago, Norbe.7630 said: From what i understood you just want to increase the capacity of alliance member slots? No. I don't want anything specific at this point. I don't have any good solution for this issue. I do understand the reason why this change is being made, understand that something needs to be made, and don't have any better solution for that either. I'm just saying that i do understand all the people that are worried about all the negative consequences this change will bring, and point out that there will be some negative consequences. People are people, they will keep gaming the system as much as possible, regardless what the system is. The only difference will be in which ways the system will be gamed, and who will suffer for it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Norbe.7630 said: You think that a PvE 10 man person raid mentality will be the same to WvW 500+xxx number right Yes. Because the basic principle underlying this mentality stays the same. The numbers do not change, whether it is a 2-man Spvp queues, 5-man party, 10-man raid squad, 50-man private marionette instance, etc, people will end up doing the same things, because that's what the systems entice them into doing. One thing you miss is that raid squad is locked only for a single run. Next time you enter you;re free to make another one. In this case however your "party" will be locked for the entirety of the assignment duration. If raid squads were being locked the same way, for a longer duration, you would not see any more casual players grouping with hardcore ones. You would not see any training runs led by experienced raiders either. Friendship or no friendship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbe.7630 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: One thing you miss is that raid squad is locked only for a single run. What is the duration on a PvE raid single run? What is the duration of WvW raid run per day? Does your friend's 500 man elitist guild run 24/7? 5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Next time you enter you;re free to make another one. In this case however your "party" will be locked for the entirety of the assignment duration. If you are half baked PvE raider the duration per raid increases for the required goal or until they kick you. If you just play for your own time in WvW, no worries there are many others that can replace your slot on the map with the same thing that you are doing but you can join again if you wanna do it again, no questions asked, no elitist screening, that is WvW. Its very vey vey clear, that you want to play with your friend's elitist alliance. But first ask him this, is he willing to play with you in the first place.....? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbe.7630 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: No. I don't want anything specific at this point. I don't have any good solution for this issue. I do understand the reason why this change is being made, understand that something needs to be made, and don't have any better solution for that either. I'm just saying that i do understand all the people that are worried about all the negative consequences this change will bring, and point out that there will be some negative consequences. People are people, they will keep gaming the system as much as possible, regardless what the system is. The only difference will be in which ways the system will be gamed, and who will suffer for it. You sure you understood? Give me 5 reasons why you think this change is being made? Who are the ones worried about the negative consequences aside from bandwagoner server and pve elitists?, Give real wvw players point of view, example here on forum or go play WvW ask them yourself on what they think on map/team chat. I can share you example: There was this one lone WvW scout that he thinks he will just be placed randomly on alliance and his scouting thing will just be useless and unrecognized in the future, he only just wants to scout and to circle around maps on WvW. What did you think i did or said to him? What would you do or say to him? What would your elitist friend's alliance guild would do or say to him? Edited September 23, 2021 by Norbe.7630 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick.8967 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 If they are going to change it, then make it ten guilds. or twenty. Come to think of it, make it 50. One for each toon I make. Oh wait, each one needs 10, so better make the limit 500. Or the OP could just ditch one of his pve guilds as it would make zero difference to most pve activity and you would still presumably be in vent/ts/whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Norbe.7630 said: What is the duration on a PvE raid single run? What is the duration of WvW raid run per day? Does your friend's 500 man elitist guild run 24/7? You seem to ignore that the guild/alliance assignments will hold for the whole matchup. Not for you single daily run. Again, imagine being locked in the same Raid squad for the whole week Quote If you just play for your own time in WvW, no worries there are many others that can replace your slot on the map with the same thing that you are doing but you can join again if you wanna do it again, no questions asked, no elitist screening, that is WvW. But there's noone that can replace your slot in the team. That gets assigned at the start of the matchup, and won't change throughout. So, if 100 players of your 500-man alliance won't show up that week, you will be 100 man short. And they won;t be replaced with next players in the queue, because team sizes are supposed to not lead to overloaded sides where you have to wait in a queue for long time. Honestly, you sould like you don't even know how the system is supposed to work... Edited September 23, 2021 by Astralporing.1957 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Norbe.7630 said: What did you think i did or said to him? What would you do or say to him? What would your elitist friend's alliance guild would do or say to him? If you were a leader of a WvW-specific serious guild, and prioritized your friends over far more dedicated to the WvW content players, it would make you a very good friend... but a very bad guild leader. In that case you should probably stick to leading social guilds. Edited September 23, 2021 by Astralporing.1957 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbe.7630 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: You seem to ignore that the guild/alliance assignments will hold for the whole matchup. Not for you single daily run. Again, imagine being locked in the same Raid squad for the whole week Im asking you what is the usual WvW Guild Raid run per day per timezone? You have any idea? yay or nay? Just give your ide, we can proceed to your whole week query, i can even give you the example of 2 months server linking instead of your weekly locking, but first i'll repeat, run per day per timezone. 7 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: But there's noone that can replace your slot in the team. Its you and people same as you who are semi-casually playing wvw. They can take your spot anytime. Its called floaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Just now, Astralporing.1957 said: If you were a leader of a WvW-specific serious guild, and prioritized your friends over far more dedicated to the WvW content players, it would make you a very good friend... but a very bad guild leader. In that case you should probably stick to leading social guilds. What about if you were a leader of a WvW-specific guild and needed to prioritize players that showed up frequently to the guild's scheduled rally times over players that didn't because you only had a limited number of slots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 8 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said: What about if you were a leader of a WvW-specific guild and needed to prioritize players that showed up frequently to the guild's scheduled rally times over players that didn't because you only had a limited number of slots? Yes, precisely. That's exactly the decision that people will have to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 22 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: But there's noone that can replace your slot in the team. That gets assigned at the start of the matchup, and won't change throughout. So, if 100 players of your 500-man alliance won't show up that week, you will be 100 man short. And they won;t be replaced with next players in the queue, because team sizes are supposed to not lead to overloaded sides where you have to wait in a queue for long time. If there is only a 20 man queue on EB and borders are practically empty, does that mean a T1 server is 4000+ man short? People seem to forget we have 500 man guilds today. And WvW still play... fine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 12 minutes ago, Norbe.7630 said: Its you and people same as you who are semi-casually playing wvw. They can take your spot anytime. Its called floaters. Precisely. Do you really think that any reasonable WvW leader that feels responsible for his/her guild is going to give precious slots to , as you said, "floaters", over dedicated WvW players? Or would they rather prefer to have more dedicated players they can depend on on their side? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said: If there is only a 20 man queue on EB and borders are practically empty, does that mean a T1 server is 4000+ man short? People seem to forget we have 500 man guilds today. And WvW still play... fine? Do you really want to consistently run in a situation where you have a small queue on Eb and your borderlands are practically empty, when your opponents have their sides filled, just because your guild decided to fill a lot of guild spots with everyone's semi-casual friends, but the other WvW guilds decided to be more professional about it? Edited September 23, 2021 by Astralporing.1957 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said: Yes, precisely. That's exactly the decision that people will have to make. Does that really make someone a bad guild leader? I guess I don't understand what you're saying. A raid only has 10 slots available. A PvE raid group will have their 10 regular raiders and the rest would be subs not able to always raid. Larger raid guilds, of course, would have players who can lead raids at different times to spread it out. The common theme though is all their part-time raiders are analogous to WvW casuals. Those players all made some level of commitment to join the guild. Guild leaders who have a handle on the level of commitment from their members would be able to negotiate for more slots in an alliance or decide not to join that particular alliance, just like a PvE raid guild would add more raid times. All I see you arguing for is to not join the WvW guild you follow around sometimes. It just means to me that you don't have any level of commitment towards that guild. Edited September 23, 2021 by Chaba.5410 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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