Stop ruining new Elite Specs with trade-offs, cast times and insane aftercasts

[Aktium.9506]

9 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

I would 100% in a heartbeat take any moment after PoF release until megabalance, with the exception of the two months after the Phantasm rework but before Chronophantasma got nerfed.

But you do see how it would have created problems down the line when trying to introduce new specs and skills into that pre-existing ecosystem? How it would have led to a degenerate descent into win button fiestas with big extreme damage skills countered by big extreme defensive skills ad nauseam

9 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

I see literally no betterment post megabalance.  Literally nothing is more fun or enjoyable than previously, unless you wanted to play immortal necros.  If immortal necro is your bag then I can see why you'd love megabalance. 

I always play the tankiest and most durable possible option available to me in all games I play and I severely detest low TTK in games. From MMOs, Fighting games to Shooters. I will not omit my bias.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Aktium.9506

[LITERALLYABIRD.3528]

This is a bit aside from the thread topic, but people are still pointing (rightly) at MM as an example of the state of balance.  The minions' health was reduced by about 40% Tuesday, no?  Are they really still survivable enough to provide their previous benefits?  One would hope not, but

[mortrialus.3062]

1 minute ago, BIRDPUNCHER.8263 said:

This is a bit aside from the thread topic, but people are still pointing (rightly) at MM as an example of the state of balance.  The minions' health was reduced by about 40% Tuesday, no?  Are they really still survivable enough to provide their previous benefits?  One would hope not, but

No the nerf effectively does nothing as the necro itself is still absurdly tanky.  If anything its a stealth buff with Death Nova.

[LITERALLYABIRD.3528]

lmao rip

[mortrialus.3062]

18 minutes ago, Aktium.9506 said:

But you do see how it would have created problems down the line when trying to introduce new specs and skills into that pre-existing ecosystem? How it would have led to a degenerate descent into win button fiestas with big extreme damage skills countered by big extreme defensive skills ad nauseam

A game where players use strategy to trade deadly damage skills with defensive options is inherently better than a game with so much raw face tank. 

18 minutes ago, Aktium.9506 said:

I always play the tankiest and most durable possible option available to me in all games I play and I severely detest low TTK in games. From MMOs, Fighting games to Shooters. I will not omit my bias.

GW2 is also a pretty unique game mode; king of the hill with three hills.  It's an inherently defensive mode and thus making the game overly defensive and unimpactful will break it.  Especially considering everything is also something of a hybrid and self sufficient with their own healing skills to keep them in the fight.  No good rotations, no spicy +1s, no close 1v1s.  Just team fights and endless 1v1s where you just plop minionmancers on both sidenodes. It isn't a moba where the goal is to destroy the enemy base, or a fighting game where there is nothing to do except fight the other person until one of you wins, where tankiness can only take you so far.   You put anything too tanky into the game and due to the nature of everyone being self healing hybrids, you make something functionally immortal.

Edited September 23, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[Aktium.9506]

8 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

A game where players use strategy to trade deadly damage skills with defensive options is inherently better than a game with so much raw face tank.

I don't agree. I've played games where the balance philosophy was "If everyone is overpowered then no one is". And it doesn't work well in practice. It's just rapidfire rock-paper-scissors at that point.

5 minutes ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

You put anything too tanky into the game and due to the nature of everyone being self healing hybrids, you make something functionally immortal.

This is a problem with sustain though. I'm not saying the Feb 2020 was the only option available to them. Another thing they could have tried is increase the base health by 4-5x or even more for all classes. Would have reduced the strength of burst while making sustain weaker.

[Tescao.3042]

I think that real hybrids are useless now, for example, core rev mallyx/shiro, when now there are core ranger, core guardian, core necro and now some time core mesmer (these are not hybrids but they fit well into the pof)

Edited September 23, 2021 by DomHemingway.8436

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

19 minutes ago, Aktium.9506 said:

I always play the tankiest and most durable possible option available to me in all games I play and I severely detest low TTK in games. From MMOs, Fighting games to Shooters. I will not omit my bias.

That's perfectly fine, and you could still play that way before the feb2020 meganerfs.

 

Only back then if you invested into max damage, then you could actually be a competent bunker buster. That option doesn't exist now.

Post-patch: Unless you invest at minimum 2 people to killing a bunker, that bunker isn't going to die.

 

I'm sure that's all very well for anyone who likes to play bunker builds, but for the rest of us its completely alien to how the game played prior.

[Tescao.3042]

oh wait Core ranger was also before the mega patch. It turns out that now there are more interpretations of core?

Edited September 23, 2021 by DomHemingway.8436

[Xca.9721]

On 9/21/2021 at 10:06 PM, mortrialus.3062 said:

A full 5 second Dragon Trigger doesn't even do half much damage as a Dragon Hunter True Shot. 

https://i.imgur.com/XFOqehI.png (6k Dragon Blade Force on medium target golem)

https://i.imgur.com/CXo01Db.png  (6k and 10k True Shot on medium target golem)

maybe show the buffs/boons and what condis are on the golem before u post random numbers..

[mortrialus.3062]

9 minutes ago, Xca.9721 said:

maybe show the buffs/boons and what condis are on the golem before u post random numbers..

Nothing is on either the golem or the character.

The only difference is that in the Dragon Hunter one I show both a plain crit as well as a crit with the F1 tether with the modifiers that come from that.

Edited September 23, 2021 by mortrialus.3062

[aelska.4609]

The philosophy of introducing many new stuffs  while 90% of the existing are never-taken options (because buggy or obsolete) still amaze me.

Especially the need of a specific traitline to get those 🙂

[Stand The Wall.6987]

7 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

it should be the opposite. Tradeoffs should exist on skills and (maybe) traits and not on profession mechanics. You should be punished for playing poorly and making poor decisions in a fight...not be punished for playing a class or a playstyle you want to play. 

trade offs shouldn't be punishment at all, thats the whole problem

[crewthief.8649]

26 minutes ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

trade offs shouldn't be punishment at all, thats the whole problem

Agreed. The harshness of the penalties associated with these especs definitely feels like we’re being punished for playing the spec. The problem with that is, people just won’t play the espec or will just straight up quit the game. There’s a lot riding on this expansion, and the especs are central to that.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

1 hour ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

trade offs shouldn't be punishment at all, thats the whole problem

 

You know, I fully agree with that. Tradeoffs are by definition, the trading of one thing for another thing. that tradeoff doesn't have to "not be fun" which i think a lot of tradeoffs currently implemented are just that...not really that fun.

 

 

[DaZeeHero.5210]

Trade off has to be accepted as worth it in a majority of situations. if it's not it's a bad trade.

[Arheundel.6451]

On 9/22/2021 at 12:45 PM, Genesis.5169 said:

What do you guys expect you guys have been beating up on anet for 8 years. You guys can't see it though everyone has ptsd even anet. I've been playing mesmer all my life this is something we as mesmer mains have been living with since Anet got rid of IP and chronophantasma then did whoops and gave it back.

 

No other class has anet routinely destroyed you guys just feeling that just now, maybe you guys will move forward and not cry and come to the forums everytime some one kills you because they are a better player how about you guys post thoughtful suggestions so we don't have to go through anet playing the NO risk game for pvp because you guys can't be bothered to learn.

I seen mesmer players coming to the forum and cry about other professions..countless times, seen mesmers whining about LR ele, ranger pets, burn weaver, thieves...wow..so much hate against thieves from mesmer ...so many tears about the class being unplayable just because thief existed...imagine instead playing a class whose mechanic can be cancelled by a conditions pretty much available to anyone even on a sigil.

My point is, the GW2 community in its entirety comes to the forum to cry everytime somebody kills them...I experienced the same whining while maining 4 different professions ...be it guardian, be it warrior, be it ranger, be it ele...8 years worth of whining for all of them

Edited September 24, 2021 by Arheundel.6451

[Exile.8160]

13 hours ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Agreed. The harshness of the penalties associated with these especs definitely feels like we’re being punished for playing the spec. The problem with that is, people just won’t play the espec or will just straight up quit the game. There’s a lot riding on this expansion, and the especs are central to that.

 

After seeing and testing my main (guard) in the beta and not seeing any news on pvp from anet I asked for a refund of the expac. Ill wait till I see some good  changes. 

 

Seeing the state of willybender and those horrible traits sucked all the hype for the expac out of me.

 

 

[crewthief.8649]

3 minutes ago, Exile.8160 said:

 

After seeing and testing my main (guard) in the beta and not seeing any news on pvp from anet I asked for a refund of the expac. Ill wait till I see some good  changes. 

 

Seeing the state of willybender and those horrible traits sucked all the hype for the expac out of me.

 

 

Same here, man. It’s such a shame; it really feels like they’ve just given up on any and all PvP modes. 

[Stand The Wall.6987]

15 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

 

You know, I fully agree with that. Tradeoffs are by definition, the trading of one thing for another thing. that tradeoff doesn't have to "not be fun" which i think a lot of tradeoffs currently implemented are just that...not really that fun.

 

 

if they introduce negatives to balance out strong traits/ skills, then its gotta be ~4:1 in favor of positive or something like that. even then people will feel like they're playing a bad class or making a bad choice cuz nothing else in this game is like this. if all grandmaster traits were like this from the beginning (of trait rework) then it would be fine. but yeah trade off imo is just good at one thing not good at another and meh at the third. not positive + negative choices everywhere.

Edited September 24, 2021 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Axl.8924]

19 hours ago, mortrialus.3062 said:

A game where players use strategy to trade deadly damage skills with defensive options is inherently better than a game with so much raw face tank. 

GW2 is also a pretty unique game mode; king of the hill with three hills.  It's an inherently defensive mode and thus making the game overly defensive and unimpactful will break it.  Especially considering everything is also something of a hybrid and self sufficient with their own healing skills to keep them in the fight.  No good rotations, no spicy +1s, no close 1v1s.  Just team fights and endless 1v1s where you just plop minionmancers on both sidenodes. It isn't a moba where the goal is to destroy the enemy base, or a fighting game where there is nothing to do except fight the other person until one of you wins, where tankiness can only take you so far.   You put anything too tanky into the game and due to the nature of everyone being self healing hybrids, you make something functionally immortal.

Part of the reason it was problematic in the past pre nerfs is that we had a really horribly balanced one shot meta that was braindead.

 

You could literally mash buttons and instakill While surviving and things like tankiness meant nothing compared to mobility which is why necros were ez free kill before. Some things went too far and Anet has made mistakes since then, but i believe undoing power creep from pof was a good thing.

The problem is that they sometimes nerf the wrong things repeatedly and don't listen. Necros should survive as bunkers but shouldn't be immortal, and thats the issue.

[Kuma.1503]

On 9/22/2021 at 3:20 PM, mortrialus.3062 said:

There's always going to be tier lists and some classes / characters / builds will be on the top of the list while others on the bottom.  And we were way closer to balance before the megabalance than we are now, where at least every profession had one or more builds that was excellent for PvP. 

Like in the patch right before megabalance we had.

1.  Both Reaper and Core necro were both excellent, meta even, but weren't absolutely flooding the game. Scourge would have been good if it wasn't dealing with the loss of self shade.

2.  Support Tempest and Fire Weaver were excellent choices with Fire Weaver being the best sidenoder in the game. Core ele needed help.

3. Spellbreaker was excellent and core warrior was solid.  Beserker needed help after getting reworked and immediately nerfed.

4. Holo had 2 excellent builds, rifle and prot.  Scrapper had a number of solid but not excellent builds.  Core engineer needed help.

5. Firebrand had support and symbolbrand both of which were excellent.  Power core guard was gutted, but had a solid support build. DH was an okay C to B tier spec.

6. Revenant was still stuck with power herald which was meta.  Core could use help and renegade, like minionmancer, probably shouldn't be good in PvP in the first place.  At least Kalla legend shouldn't.

7.  Ranger had solid core and soulbeast builds but druid was struggling. 

8.  Thief was meta with Shadow Arts core.  DP daredevil and SD core were solid. 

9.  Condi Mirage was excellent and power core and mirage were solid.  Chronomancer was unviable after the removal of illusory persona. 

 

I'd go back to that in a heartbeat than the game we have no where ranked is a necro fiesta with matches being 40-60% necromancers.  And really the only core builds that were really really struggling were ele and engie and oh hey the megabalance didn't fix that.

Core Grenadier Engi actaully felt playable after mega ballance. 

And then it got slapped with a million nerfs because of holosmith. 

Now it's garbage again. 

I'm just waiting for Anet to try to build an Elite spec off of this shambling mess of a class. It will be catalyst all over again. 

The only good that came out of the FEB patch were the traitline reworks which where net buffs for their respective proffessions. 

The only good patches that came post feb were the PvE oriented patches that added build diversity  to existing/underperforming  (Quickness Scrapper, Alac Mirage). The rest were just wack-a-mole nerf patches that slowly killed off build after build. 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by Kuma.1503

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

7 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

if they introduce negatives to balance out strong traits/ skills, then its gotta be ~4:1 in favor of positive or something like that. even then people will feel like they're playing a bad class or making a bad choice cuz nothing else in this game is like this. if all grandmaster traits were like this from the beginning (of trait rework) then it would be fine. but yeah trade off imo is just good at one thing not good at another and meh at the third. not positive + negative choices everywhere.

i have a different line of thought about trade offs. Thing is that it can be a bit deep of a topic to get into.

 

the first thing is that, trade offs should be, scale invariant. Scale invariance means that the trade off, scales the same, at different scales of combat, doing so means you can remove the target cap, which is essentially one of the driving forces behind imbalance (target caps shouldn’t exist)
 

thus, as the scale of combat grows, so does the risk versus the reward. A good example of this is Rune of Altruism pre-nerf. It’s very simple…you take a condition from an ally and you place it onto yourself. The more allies this effects, the more conditions you pile onto yourself. This is one of the best examples of a trade off that scales both in risk and reward. This is also why it not having an ICD was justified (until it was nerfed) essentially killing the skill.

lastly, trade offs should be dynamic and act like feedback…so with every positive effect there is a “counter positive” effect. This counter positive acts like negative feedback when the player is controlling the input…and this is really the idea behind players being punished for playing bad. If you don’t know how to control your buttons and mismanage your trade offs, then you learn from mistakes and gameplay becomes more engaging.

 

for example, Frenzy is a prime example of a skill that acts like feedback. You attack faster (like quickness) but while under this effect you take double damage. Frenzy can be perma’d…so without the trade off such a skill would be overpowering. But the trade off is what gives agency to the player and stance swapping became a legitimate strategy in PvP…swapping from offensive to defensive when they strategically needed to…and this is what made warrior such a fun and skillful class in gw1. 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Shao.7236]

7 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Core Grenadier Engi actaully felt playable after mega ballance. 

And then it got slapped with a million nerfs because of holosmith. 

Now it's garbage again. 

I'm just waiting for Anet to try to build an Elite spec off of this shambling mess of a class. It will be catalyst all over again. 

The only good that came out of the FEB patch were the traitline reworks which where net buffs for their respective proffessions. 

The only good patches that came post feb were the PvE oriented patches that added build diversity  to existing/underperforming  (Quickness Scrapper, Alac Mirage). The rest were just wack-a-mole nerf patches that slowly killed off build after build. 

 

 

Give Core Engi the ability to put kits in tool belt, that would be a good buff to the class in general without doing much for Holo since what makes it so great is the fact that you have a kit in tool belt in the first place. More "skills" does not equal better, just the fact that this elite breaks the rules in general by having one in the toolbelt makes it very strong because of the flow that goes with it.

 

Bladesworn loses on weapon swap which is a display that Anet knows what it entails to have extra skills to use in a bundle.

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

i have a different line of thought about trade offs. Thing is that it can be a bit deep of a topic to get into.

 

the first thing is that, trade offs should be, scale invariant. Scale invariance means that the trade off, scales the same, at different scales of combat, doing so means you can remove the target cap, which is essentially one of the driving forces behind imbalance (target caps shouldn’t exist)
 

thus, as the scale of combat grows, so does the risk versus the reward. A good example of this is Rune of Altruism pre-nerf. It’s very simple…you take a condition from an ally and you place it onto yourself. The more allies this effects, the more conditions you pile onto yourself. This is one of the best examples of a trade off that scales both in risk and reward. This is also why it not having an ICD was justified (until it was nerfed) essentially killing the skill.

lastly, trade offs should be dynamic and act like feedback…so with every positive effect there is a “counter positive” effect. This counter positive acts like negative feedback when the player is controlling the input…and this is really the idea behind players being punished for playing bad. If you don’t know how to control your buttons and mismanage your trade offs, then you learn from mistakes and gameplay becomes more engaging.

 

for example, Frenzy is a prime example of a skill that acts like feedback. You attack faster (like quickness) but while under this effect you take double damage. Frenzy can be perma’d…so without the trade off such a skill would be overpowering. But the trade off is what gives agency to the player and stance swapping became a legitimate strategy in PvP…swapping from offensive to defensive when they strategically needed to…and this is what made warrior such a fun and skillful class in gw1. 

 

This makes me sad that I missed out on GW1 during its prime. The more I hear you post about the more it sounds like a fun game.