Vindicator's Dodge

[Oldyoung.6109]

I'm asking about the mechanic as a whole if you want to expound further please leave a comment.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

It's slow moving and the Vindicator's other defensive skills don't make up for it. Even worse, you only appear to evade for some of the animation after which you take damage and CCs... Except you cannot use your skills. Also, 900% of the traits affect just the dodge and endurance gain. Why? It's as if ANet knew it was crap and the traits try to fix it. An utterly hideous mechanic that could not have been tested outside of the developers making sure it didn't crash the game.

[b k.1648]

I actually don't want to categorize it as simply "bad" or "good".

 

It's a very interesting mechanic, but at the moment the downside is too significant to justify using it. The Luxon variant in particular trades off far too much survivability for the extra damage you gain. The Kurzick one with the vigour boost trait is not too bad, but it still brings less to the table as a support spec than either the Renegade or Herald.

 

I think if it had high access to Aegis, I'd be happy with the dodge. As it is, I'd rather stick to Renegade and Herald.

[Ausar.9542]

Daredevil still has multiple dodges. THe sacrifice of the dodge doesnt justify the change. Survival in WvW has gone down big time, but the damage hasnt made up for it.

[Ausar.9542]

Also why did the developers think it was a good idea to add that endurance reduction when we dismount and enter combat? very sluggish gameplay

[mexay.3902]

Yeah it feels much too slow. Also the whole idea of constantly wasting your dodge to keep up a damage buff is gross. 

 

The mechanic needs a rework. 15 seconds to one dodge is nasty. I really don't like this mechanic. 

[Dahkeus.8243]

I’m not sold on it, but I don’t know that I would call it “bad” at this point.  It’s definitely awkward and seems to take away from the core fast-dodging gameplay loop that I’ve loved in GW2.  
 

The air time seems to last too long for my tastes.  While the long evade is nice and understandable considering the cost of having one potentially expensive dodge, it feels like gameplay just gets put on hold for a bit while you wait for your character to land.

[VladTepes.7042]

This mechanic feels to me like you are losing the dodge mechanic as a whole and get a skill with high evade frame as a tradeoff.  But in pvp-like-settings this doesn't add up. The new Dodge-skill is worse than having two standard dodges because you can't react or counterattack quickly after it like after the standard-dodge - it's the other way around: the enemy will attack you the moment you hit the ground. At least this was my experience with it.

[Tseison.4659]

Anet has this weird obsession with giving one-dodges (i.e our Mirage) and allowing some others to roam around with a hundred evades no shade but shade. Haven't played the new Vindi and never will but when I was out in WvW last night, it was really easy to pick them off because once they used their 'skyfall', energy sigil and then used it again, they pretty much were sitting ducks, this was for both ally and enemies alike.

Definitely feel bad that you guys are going through what we have to go through for Mirage because I know how frustrating and limiting it can be. Here's hoping they're able to elevate that mechanic or give us back the two dodges. It's just so imbedded into us all that having just one is painful.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Tseison.4659

[nosleepdemon.1368]

5 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

I’m not sold on it, but I don’t know that I would call it “bad” at this point.  It’s definitely awkward and seems to take away from the core fast-dodging gameplay loop that I’ve loved in GW2.  
 

The air time seems to last too long for my tastes.  While the long evade is nice and understandable considering the cost of having one potentially expensive dodge, it feels like gameplay just gets put on hold for a bit while you wait for your character to land.

 

Well the thing is it's not even a long evade. It appears that the evade frames last only as long as a regular dodge. After that you take full damage and CC WHILE STUCK in limbo. Garbage garbage garbage. How did that make it into beta? This feels nothing like beta, maybe an alpha? The mechanics are so bad they don't just need fixing, they need a rework.

[Joxer.6024]

going from learning to dodge and using it when needed to this doesnt work......boo. The leap should just be an added damage skill.

[RabbitUp.8294]

The babyrage is real.

It feels like some people in this thread only tried the damage dodge. That one is bad, especially in pve, the other two are fine. 

2 hours ago, nosleepdemon.1368 said:

Well the thing is it's not even a long evade. It appears that the evade frames last only as long as a regular dodge. After that you take full damage and CC WHILE STUCK in limbo. Garbage garbage garbage. How did that make it into beta? This feels nothing like beta, maybe an alpha? The mechanics are so bad they don't just need fixing, they need a rework.

That's what you call a bug. The mechanics don't need a rework, they need to work the way they are supposed to. 

2 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

Anet has this weird obsession with giving one-dodges (i.e our Mirage) and allowing some others to roam around with a hundred evades no shade but shade. Haven't played the new Vindi and never will but when I was out in WvW last night, it was really easy to pick them off because once they used their 'skyfall', energy sigil and then used it again, they pretty much were sitting ducks, this was for both ally and enemies alike.

So just like every other class who used all their dodges? Truly insightful.

Having two dodges means you start the fight with exactly one (1) more dodge, it doesn't mean you always have a dodge available. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by RabbitUp.8294

[lunaeclipse.6843]

It feels bad to me currently but only for 2 reasons:

 

1) the animation is not in line with the evade frames. the animation is longer than the evade frames so i cant tell exactly when im evading. This is potentially just a bug though.

 

2) the damage output, especially from Forerunner of Death, is not good enough to justify the trait & its increased dodge recharge.

 

As far as the animation itself, I like it personally. Fix these issues and im perfectly happy with the dodge mechanic.

[Klowdy.3126]

40 minutes ago, Joxer.6024 said:

going from learning to dodge and using it when needed to this doesnt work......boo. The leap should just be an added damage skill.

Yeah. Dives didn't work well in FF14 for a long time, and are still not great. It they made that one of the elite skills, and gave it a stun aspect, I would love it. The ability is cool, but I don't like that its tied to our defense. That said, I have gotten the CD on dodge pretty low with this random build I made, but I feel like damage is low for the build.

[philvaneyck.1932]

It's so bad. Low dmg in pvp and often died while dodging. And everyone can see its coming and easily outrun it... useless wow.

Edited September 22, 2021 by philvaneyck.1932

[Klowdy.3126]

32 minutes ago, philvaneyck.1932 said:

It's so bad. Low dmg in pvp and often died while dodging. And everyone can see its coming and easily outrun it... useless wow.

Does the other team see the ground target? If so, that seems more like a detriment than anything. "Hey guys, I'm gonna land in this spot, and you should be able to time my landing with some CC."

[TheGrimm.5624]

In competitive modes like WvW could see the damage increased since it has such a big tell already and is easy to dodge, get out of.

[Oldyoung.6109]

14 hours ago, Ben K.6238 said:

I actually don't want to categorize it as simply "bad" or "good".

 

It's a very interesting mechanic, but at the moment the downside is too significant to justify using it. The Luxon variant in particular trades off far too much survivability for the extra damage you gain. The Kurzick one with the vigour boost trait is not too bad, but it still brings less to the table as a support spec than either the Renegade or Herald.

 

I think if it had high access to Aegis, I'd be happy with the dodge. As it is, I'd rather stick to Renegade and Herald.

that's why i put "feels" as the modifier it can feel good but need some tweaks or it can feel bad but be fixed.

 

I only put 2 options to avoid everyone stacking into "meh" that the discourse simply ignores.

[pah.4931]

I voted good because the IDEA could work. The current execution is not good (the healy-hop is the only one that is viable). You can build around heal hopping A LOT which could be fun. I think they should all be baseline exactly like the heal hop (50 endurance) and then do damage / give boons or conditions / heal accordingly.

[Kidel.2057]

I like the mechanic and Saint's Shield in pvp shows without a doubt that it can become useful. If you tested only offensive dodges I can see why you think it's bad. Offensive dodges have bad numbers on them, but the mechanic itself is fine.

Legendary alliance on the other hand is crap, as well as f2.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Kidel.2057

[Jthug.9506]

I like it a lot, however if they are going to keep the damage oriented versions with longer flight times than the heal version, then there should be a MUCH higher damage boon especially in pve. I would suggest giving the damage buff to both the middle and top grand master and make it higher for the top grand master, maybe 7.5% and 15 %. I would also suggest splitting it across game modes and bumping it to 17.5% and 35% in pve for the middle and top GMs respectively.

However I would like to note that if I am trying to do damage I feel FORCED into taking both the bottom middle trait in alliance, and taking retribution to get vigor to a 75% bonus, at least in competitive modes. I also feel FORCED to take energy sigils on both weapons (which by the way only grant 50 endurance not 50% as it says in the tool tip, but that's a whole other hill to die on) And that's kind of a shame. That said I found the spec worked well that way but only with dwarf and shiro legends, the alliance legend just isn't good enough right now to replace either shiro or dwarf, and it really needs some hard CC if you ask me. Also if I had been thinking straight I would have made sure to put fireworks runes in my bank before the beta, as those would be quite nice to have. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Jthug.9506

[Monarc.9726]

I haven’t played with Vindicator enough to have a strong opinion, but in the time I did play I found the dodge mechanic to be fun at first, nice added benefits to dodge, and then soon after it started to get annoying. Mostly due to the animation, because it breaks the flow of combat more than I would like and makes it really easy to predict/lay traps for when you land, in competitive modes. 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Monarc.9726