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[Vindicator][PvE] My feedback, perceived issues and some proposals.

Wielder Of Magic.3950

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I hereby present my feedback on the Vindicator elite spec for the Revenant class. I will divide my feedback into several sections and will try to look at things from mainly a PvE perspective. Vindicator was the spec that hyped me the most out of the three newest beta elite specs. I really loved the idea of getting two legends to toy with, and that dramatic dodge looked awesome! But after playing it for quite a bit (as far one can say this in a Beta event), I am afraid the spec has a lot of issues that completely kill both its DPS and support potential.

The PvE DPS numbers:

Unfortunately the thing is that the Vindicator as a whole is dramatically undertuned for damage. Greatsword is only a part of this issue. Both it and traits need help to get the damage to a good level. Even the best of the best players among us are having trouble getting above 30k on the golem. If under perfect circumstances and perfect boons, it is almost impossible to break the 30k damage barrier, something is wrong.  More damage is needed, either through greatsword buffs, or through traits with more/additional damage modifiers. The fact that the damage on the legend skills (even the spear elite) is quite low doesnt help either.


Possible issue with the theme:

None to be honest, none. It feels fitting to get the legends of two of Cantha’s greatest heroes in our new spec, I don’t think there would be a better suited choice for me personally. I know that Archemorus and Saint Victor aren’t everyone’s first choice ( I have seen suggestions for a Naga legend, a Tengu legend, Master Togo, an ancient evil mage legend, Vizu or Nika, even Razah at one point), but at least they are influential figures in Canthan lore.


Possible issue with the mechanic:

The Flip over nature of the legend skills feel clunky, you don’t have access to what you want when you need it, and the shared cooldowns don’t help either. The current F2 skill could also use some additional/other functionality or a split into different skills. It really hurts that I come to this conclusion, because on paper this flip-over system is a highly creative one that was guaranteed to add a new flavour to the revenant playstyle. But after trying it extensively, the only conclusion I am able to reach is that it is a mechanic that does not work as well as I hoped it would.


Some proposals:

1. I am wondering if it wouldn’t be better to just separate the two legends and switch between Archemorus/Victor with F2, while switching to a non legendary-alliance legend with F1. I understand that would hurt the uniqueness, but at least it would work and not frustrate the player.
2. In addition the current F2 skill feels harsh when it comes to flipping skills, essentially adding a big energy cost to the first skill you want to use from the other half of your alliance (you are pretty much forced into the trait for this if you want to be able to somewhat reliably access your skills).


3. If the suggestion to split the two into seperate legends doesnt work, I feel this F2 needs to be split into an F2 and an F3, with F2 trading energy for endurance, and F3 flipping/resetting the legend skills, with adjusted costs and recharges (meaning you roll the Leviathan Strength trait into an F3 skill). Because currently you will often find yourself stuck with skills from a legend you don’t want, or use something to get to the legend you need only to have the thing you want on cooldown. I appreciate the flavor/idea, but I currently feel it is holding the spec back.


4. Another suggestion: Combine the two legends in one skillbar. Make the heal skill Saint Victor, proceed to give Victor and Archemorus 2 Utility skills each on your bar, Move Urn and Spear to F2 and F3 and create a new elite skill that is an attack performed by both legendary heroes together, like how they struck down Shiro together. So your elite truly show their ‘alliance’.


5. Or how about this: Make Vindicator the first spec that allows the Revenant to pick its skills for that legend, so you can pick if you want an Archemorus or a Saint Victor skill in a slot.


6. Something else: you only get endurance from F2 when used in a non-legendary alliance legend. Is that enough to make it appealing to use outside of Archemorus/Victor? Perhaps it could do something else based on the non legendary-alliance legend that you swap to? Just so you may also be tempted into using the skill when NOT channeling the legendary-alliance stance.


Possible issue with the Greatsword skills:

Not much, I feel like the greatsword is solid as an idea. An auto-attack chain that rewards finishing it (because the last hit does more damage if the tooltip is to be believed), two  hard hitting skills in greatsword 2 and 5, a gap closer and snare on 3 ( but I do not believe the tooltip that claims its 900 range, it’s not even half in reality), and a block on 4 with a follow-up/flip-over. So looking at what the skills do, it seems like a well-rounded kit.

Possible issue with the roles this legend may fill in PvE:


Role 1: DPS Vindicator:
Vindicator appears to get the option for mainly two roles, being a selfish DPS spec and a healer/supportive spec. With only Forerunner of Death being a 15% damage modifier and the conditional power from Empire Divided, the spec pretty much has to rely on the greatsword (which currently cannot be traited) to do the damage. I feel this is not going to be enough, especially with the damage on the legend skills being abysmal, even on the Archemorus elite. Even the best of the best players among us are having trouble getting above 30k on the golem. If under perfect circumstances and perfect boons, it is almost impossible to break the 30k barrier, something is wrong.  More damage is needed, either through greatsword buffs, or through traits with more/additional damage modifiers.


Another problem is the lack of CC the spec comes with for higher end PvE (I will probably mention this multiple times, because it is THAT important imo). The spec has 0 hard CC, 0, ZERO. Now a spec can get away with doing no cc at all if its busted in other aspects, like busted damage or busted utility/support. But if it has no CC but also no damage, it becomes a problem in a DPS position. And staff is not the answer, considering the big DPS loss that staff is, causing your damage to drop even further. 16 new legend skills. Zero with hard CC. Zero.


For the goal of DPS Vindicator to be achieved, the DPS numbers will need to find their way upwards through either raw damage on greatsword and Archemorus legend skills, or through trait modifications giving it additional damage modifiers or way to increase damage in other ways, currently this part of the spec is undertuned. And find a way to weave some hard CC into the spec so it does not need to rely on the staff. Staff can work on support renegade and perhaps support Saint Victor Vindicator, where DPS is not the main role or goal, but it will not work on a DPS Archemorus Vindicator. To me this problem is really glaring. I am sure there is a way to incorporate some pulls and/or stuns into the utility skills of these legends.


Role 2: Support/Heal Vindicator:
The heal/support part is in a better state numberswise, but has a major oversight: a healing spec in PvE does not merely get chosen for their raw healing power, but for the offensive buffs they can bring in either quickness+boons (FB), alacrity+boons+some heals(Renegade), quickness+heals (Scrapper, and this is fringe already), or heals+fury+massive might(druid). Rarely if ever is a healing spec brought for raw healing, even heal scourge offers some additional utility in for example teleport resurrection, another epidemic and some might. Vindicator right now pretty much only brings a bit of healing, some barrier and a bit of regeneration. This is not enough to compete where it matters, those places will still bring Firebrands/Renegades/Druids.


Vindicator needs its own healer niche, which means it either needs to bring some more offensive boons (something extremely good or it will never compete with alacrity renegades or quickness+boonspamming firebrands, hell it loses out to boonsupport Herald as it currently is), or it needs to go down the healscourge path and become a very powerful carry spec through heals, blocks, ressing and omega-barriers. Without massive buffs, this playstyle might be dead on arrival in PvE, and personally I do not want that to happen!

Possible issue with the artwork of skills and traits:  

Like most of the EoD icons so far, I feel they are missing details and polish. There is a very clear difference between EoD skill/trait icons, and the basegame/HoT/PoF ones.


Do another pass over the icons so they won’t look as out of place as they currently do when compared to their basegame/HoT/PoF counterparts.

Possible issues with Utility skills:

Most of Archemorus his skills are supposed to feel aggressive, but in reality aren't very damaging and very situational. It’s obvious they felt a bit afraid to make the abilities OP because you get 2 new legends instead of 1.

Example: Spear of Archemorus is a 2000 range intercontinental ballistic missile...that hits like a wet noodle. For something that looks so amazing, the damage is pitiful. Please up the damage on it, by a lot.

 I feel like this half of the legend could also use some harder crowd control options, right now Vindicator lacks that a lot. Archemorus was a Luxon, and a big part of Luxon Culture was the Convocation and the hunt on Zhu Hanaku the Kraken. Perhaps we could see some of this Kraken power in this legend, perhaps a tendril pull or other type of CC ( icing on the cake would be if it has better or different effects/buffs based on certain conditions)?


Overall this stance could use some more unique stuff, some things feel like it’s copy-pasted from the Shiro legend with minimal changes. As it stands, there is very little reason to use the skills this legend comes with. Even worse, the best damage right now seems to come from ignoring this legend entirely and just play with Jalis and Shiro. Please, make me want to use the legend skills! Make them menacing, make them cool, make them do cool things!

Saint Victor:
Healing feels like stepping hard on the toes of both Renegade and Ventari. Either it can do better heals than Renegade/Ventari, only to still get sidelined because you bring no alacrity to the group, or it cannot do better heals and will never be seriously played because Ren/Ventari does it better. I Feel Saint Victor should get a niche of its own (preferably in a way so that it is not hard-chained to Ventari), perhaps with less emphasis on raw heals, and some more on short duration aegis and notably barrier applications, with how Shield of Saint Victor in GW1 was basically a massive barrier drop. The grandmaster giving heals+barrier on dodge already toys with this idea (and I think that is a great trait), I feel the entire Victor line could make use of that philosophy. You could then maybe make it give some of the buffs/boons high end PvE likes so much through traits enhancing barrier or aegis application.


I honestly have trouble wrapping my head around the complete lack of aegis here.
The entire Saint Victor line is lacking any form of the boon, and that for a guy who was pretty much the Canthan version of the Shield Hero. This legend could really use it. Tree song is mostly fine, but won’t do much unless you party drowns in conditions (but I suppose the evade on it is nice). Perhaps it could actually spawn a tree that for a period of time gives out some boons on an interval? Or some barrier build-up? Or perhaps this could could spawn a shielding Juggernaut/image of the Zu Heltzer Cathedral with relevant buffing?  Awakening would be nice if it shared some stability with allies as well I think.

Urn of Saint Victor functions mechanically, but it might just be the worst elite in the entire game in its current form. I cannot heal myself, I damage myself, drain all my energy, for hardly worthwile effects.

 I also feel it’s a missed opportunity to bring back the functionality of one of Cantha’s most iconic skills. In the original GW1 the ‘Shield of Saint Victor’ spawned a massive damage absorbing shield, so I am surprised this skill pulses healing while damaging yourself. Why not give out a massive barrier (like a fat 15k barrier with high healing power) with initial aegis/projectile block/attack block? This is a healing legend that is in dire need of a niche.


Issues with Vindicator traits:

Amnesty of Shing Jea:
Both of the effects feel underwhelming to me, simply because both a small jolt of regeneration or a single might stack won’t achieve much, especially on a playing field where some specs can put out 15-25 might on their own in addition to other boons and heals. I do think that a form of boonshare is the right way however.



Why not give Kurzick skills self-quickness or fury and allow it to share any boons it applies to itself with Kurzick skills to allies? If you then rebalance some of the boons on the Archemorus kit it might become worthwile to at least use them in groups.  Luxon ones can maybe either apply a short duration aegis or some barrier or maybe resolution for synergy with invocation, with perhaps later traits capitalising on this?


Leviathan's Strength:
I feel this is a mandatory trait in order to get around the clunkyness of the flip-over mechanic. This should honestly be an F3 skill as described in the mechanic section, and not a trait.
Rework this into an F3 skill and use this space for something else, the current mechanic of legend-flipping makes this trait 100% mandatory if you wish to enjoy the spec and not get frustrated.


Redemptor's Sermon:
I see little reason to take this in PvE on the DPS side of things, meaning this is mostly a support Vindicator trait. But...there is no reliable way of triggering this outside of camping Saint Victor’s Urn and praying something lightly taps you. You could argue that this is meant as an “OSHT” type of skill to go off and save your kitten when you get caught with your pants down, but I personally never found these type of traits very engaging, and there is a reason we rarely if ever see them around anymore.



Rework so the effect can be reliably triggered in a way that does not involve camping Victor’s urn and praying for a foe to hit you with a light attack. Being reliant on randomly getting hit promotes bad plays and is not what I would consider a very attractive design.


Balance in Discord:
When you use Alliance Tactics (20-40 CD) or swap legends (10 CD) get a base 1.1k heal + 6 secs of regen worth a base of 780, meaning its a ~1.8k heal on roughly a 10 second cooldown ( the cooldown on legend swap). I suppose it will help a bit with staying power in combat, considering revenants will typically cycle through their legends on cooldown, but it’s not really that strong.


Perhaps keep this functionality for when Saint Victor is active/swapped to, and think of a 2nd type of effect for when Archemorus is active/swapped to? Perhaps Archemorus could do an offensive action or get some offensive boons?


Angsiyan’s Trust, Reaver’s Curse and Song of Arboreum:
Song of Arboreum is without a doubt the best endurance trait out of the three, it’s so superior there is almost zero reason to run the others as far as I can see in PvE. These three traits are essentially trying to solve a problem the devs created by giving the Vindicator only a single dodge, but only one of these options really feels as if it makes a difference. Both Reaver’s Curse and Angsiyan’s Trust are hilariously underpowered in comparison and it might be better to scrap them in favour of something else.


Some Proposals:

Perhaps this would be a good place for a greatsword trait? The spec could really use an additional damage modifier, so perhaps something like how on a greatsword-attack crit you summon the heads of the Luxon clans who try to copy that critical attack on your target after a delay? Tie a cooldown to it and you have a proc to dance and plan around while increasing the damage when used on the right skills.


Or maybe a trait that procs on crowd control  you inflict for damage and/or a damage buff? That could go in tandem with perhaps adding some cc to the Archemorus side of things, to solve the lack of CC it currently has.

This way you might solve the issue of Arboreum completely making the other two traits in its line look like thrash, and it might give people incentive to actually use some of the legend skills that give endurance based on foes hit (because they might be swayed into picking another DPS trait, meaning endurance has to come from somewhere else).

Empire Divided:
This truly is a punch in the gut of the Willbender. Willbender having to pick either power or healing power as an adept and needing to give up something substantial as well, and Vindicator getting both for almost free?



Maybe tie the stats to something else but health thresholds, because it would mean a support Saint Victor has to be permanently below 50% health to get any benefit from this, while having obviously a lot less use for the bonus power when above that threshold. The only way you are going to reliably get there is by channeling Saint Victor’s Urn for a prolonged period of time, meaning this part of this trait pretty much has the same problem as Redemptor’s Sermon: It completely hinges on camping the urn skill or praying you get pinged with a mild hit, which is a pretty passive way of doing things.

Should Anet decide to go with the idea of seperating Archemorus/Saint Victor into seperate legends that F2 switches between the solution is as simple as tying the stats to the channeling of the relevant legend, with possibly reduced bonuses of both stats when channeling a non legendary-alliance legend.

Forerunner of Death:
And there is our damageboost. Pretty much our only damageboost. 15% for 15 seconds, while doing damage on impact. I am mostly fine with this as an idea, but I do wonder how gamebreaking it would be to add a small daze component to it in addition to the damage and vulnerability when landing. Just to give it that ‘superman feeling’ and your opponents standing their shocked as you make the dramatic entrance. Would once again also solve some of the CC problem.  I would also keep an eye on the PvE damage so it’s not to low, because it would be a shame if the dodge, even with the 15% modifier, happens to not be enough, which is how it is currently looking.


The damage buff is not enough and the animation simply takes longer than needed. Perhaps the Vindicator could land/end the animation earlier, but keep some evade frames after landing?  The idea for this trait isn’t bad, but the execution of that idea is currently either lacking or not strong enough.

Saint of Zu Heltzer:
I really like this trait. It changes things, it has healing but more importantly barrier, while also reducing endurance costs required for its use. Combined with vigor and endurance management from the rest of the spec this could make for a very dodge-heavy healer and I really like that idea, it dares to be different, and the 20% healing bonus is the cherry on top. Only thing I would consider is making this 10 targets in PvE, just so it is on par with the target-cap of other supports. Very good trait imo, just not good enough to carry a support/heal Vindicator spec all on its own.


Vassals of the Empire:
Yeah...I have a bit of a problem with this one. Damage is going to pick Forerunner of Death, support and healers are probably going with Saint of zu Heltzer (or at least try to), so why would you pick Vassals of the Empire? For 10 might and protection? Both boons you can get from a support Renegade that isn’t sacrificing much? For the 2 second boon extension? Remember when Tempest got that boon extension with Sand Squall and how we all used it? Neither do I.  


In my opinion this trait could use an additional pass by the devs, because it seems like the other two completely overshadow it in most situations I could think off. Perhaps make it give out fury as well so you can maintain protection, fury and decent might stacks with the dodge. If Vindicator then gets a modifier aside from Forerunner of Death for damage this trait might become barely viable as a might/fury provider with some more side boons, but only very very bottom of the barrel barely ( It would feel a bit like maybe the old Phalanx Strength Warrior, which has been mostly absolete for a long time). The lack of a distinct boon/buff exclusively for Vindicator to give out hurts. It’s not like this trait is total trash, don’t get me wrong. But the other two options have way more distinct roles/purposes and give way stronger/better effects. I just can’t think off a situation where this would be better than either Forerunner of Death or Saint of zu Heltzer.

Closing statement

Vindicator is a daring spec that really tries to shake things up for the revenant. And despite some things like the flip-over and F mechanic feeling clunky to me, the undertuned damage and support options and some traits needing work, I feel like this has potential to be a cool spec with interesting gameplay options. I think Vindicator’s most pressing issues are fixable by Anet, but it depends on how much they are willing to invest.

DPS is fixeable by just adjusting a few numbers, but fixing some of the bigger issues like traits and legend skills would take a lot of work...I am unsure if Anet is willing to do that and if they are, how much time they would need to come up with alternatives.


If inspiration is an issue I hope Anet feels free to perhaps grab a bit of mild inspiration from my own interpretation of a Saint Victor/Archemorus dual spec:


There are already some similarities, so I wouldn’t mind if something I did there inspires Anet to think off some fixes for Vindicator its current issues. I know how hard it is sometimes to come up with a fix for an issue when you are closely involved in a project, a new outlook often helps with getting inspiration (that’s what works for me at least, perhaps it can work for Anet as well!). Not saying it’s better, but it’s different, and sometimes seeing a different take helps.

Thanks for reading!




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A good and in-depth write up, I agree with most if not all of your feedback. 


I remember reading through your 'Duo Legend' blueprint and thought it was really well done. Especially liked the Saint Viktor elite with the shield/aegis idea.


We have one half (Archemorus Spear) the celestial summoning from the Ritualist's unique spell in Factions, why not use the other half (Saint Viktor's Shield.)

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I've read your post in the general feedback thread, I'm glad you also made a dedicated topic. This needs visibility. I won't write my initial reply again, it's here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/101890-vindicator-feedback-thread/?do=findComment&comment=1472310

I'll just say one more time good job. Good suggestions and well written. 

F2 "added benefit" of skill flip forces you to check the UI every time you hit it to gain endurance. It's obvious that the endurance part needs a separate skill (that already exists in the code). Pretty sure they'll separate them at this point. Initially I thought I was alone in this fight, but I've noticed that the community is unanimous. I don't think a second swap is a good idea design wise (it would surely be practical, but will force them to keep the cooldown on skills and will be yet another swap that the core profession already has as the core mechanic). You also suggested other ideas and I like them more.

I think a loadout freeze or a loadout reset is the way to go. A freeze would allow for something that Rev doesn't have: customization. A loadout reset is definitely simple, but can allow for some interesting traits (to pick St. Viktor as the default reset, adding passive healing effectiveness, so that you can make a real healing build with 1 trait). 

We already have a form of loadout reset on Vindicator after all. Just use Urn until you go down, recover and boom! Archemorous loadout. 🙂

Edited by Kidel.2057
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4 hours ago, Kidel.2057 said:

I've read your post in the general feedback thread, I'm glad you also made a dedicated topic. This needs visibility. I won't write my initial reply again, it's here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/101890-vindicator-feedback-thread/?do=findComment&comment=1472310

I'll just say one more time good job. Good suggestions and well written. 


Thanks for your kind response, both here and in the general feedback thread!
Things like that makes it worth typing all of this out (I try doing it for each Beta spec, only Bladesworn left).
Hopefully Anet will find something of value inside that big wall of text.

Edited by Wielder Of Magic.3950
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