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What's up with the commander/mentor tag and the flaming that comes along with it...?


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So I recently spent some gold on getting one of these tags. I thought it'd be fun to get groups of people who want to roam wvw or pve content around with me and conversate. Very soon however I've realized that if I'm not doing what the group thinks I/we should be, I am getting flamed in pms or map chat about how I'm a moron or why I even have a tag... I know I might not fully understand the concept of wvw zerging down to the fine line, but I didn't expect this type of community reaction just for rocking the tag and not being a perfectionist. Whats up with that? Is the commander/mentor tag seen as someone who 100% knows every micro-detail of the game mode they are using it in? Sorry for wanting to enjoy a group to zerg with and lead, but it's kinda ridiculous the amount of flaming I'm receiving tbh.. I've since retired the tag to avoid this. Thoughts?

Edited by SimpleKingly.5021
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The whole point of the commander/mentor tags is that you do know (at least roughly) what to do and where to go on the map. WvW'ers justifiably get tetchy if some rando tags up and just goes hither and thither. In pve, the tag is mainly to show people where events are, or bounties, or jumping puzzles (if that's a daily). So the expectation is that you will 'command' the squad/ 'mentor' the party etc.

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Over the years the use of commander tags (and by a lesser extend, mentor tags) has been "streamlined"  within the gw2 playerbase to avoid cluttering of the minimap with mapwide-visible symbols - at least that used to be a big motivation. As a consequence a sort-of expectation developed as to what a commander tag on the symbol can mean on open world maps, e.g :

 

◈ Leading through a map meta event chain

◈ Leading for World Bosses 

◈ Leading a HP train

◈ Leading specific kinds of farms (think for instance bauble farms)

◈ Leading a bounty train (an example for a cross-map case)

◈ Indicating single bounties that one needs help with

◈ Indicating events that are important for certain higher-tier archievements (for instance for the griffon collection)

◈ Marking the locations of Puzzles (for instance for JP-Dailies)

◈ Doing JP trains for those who don't want to deal with the jumping

◈ Parking at certain spot with a public squad to allow for self-invite-T2Fing (for instance the JP chest in Draconis Mons)

In some of these cases the commander would usually either announce the purpose of the tag ("Event XYZ for Collection ABC on Blue Tag!") in mapchat and/or write the purpose as a squad message to avoid confusion. If you create an LFG entry with your squad, you would also put the purpose into the lfg as well. As long as you adhere to these rules (or the use cases mentioned), people usually don't have any problem with the use of the tag - even if it's for more mundane things.  Though, if you need help with something "less important", it's nicer to use a mentor tag instead of a commander tag - while both can contribute to Minimap-cluttering, players tend to have less strict expectations when it comes to mentor tags.

 

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I thought it'd be fun to get groups of people who want to roam wvw or pve content around with me and conversate.

Commander tags were originally meant to be used in WvW, and are even more important there than they are in PvE. If you are actually playing for points in WvW, you really, really want to limit the amount of tags on the map to those who "actually get things done" - which means actually defending and flipping staff as opposed to merely "roaming" around. You tagging up for roaming itself wouldn't be that much of a problem - the problem is more that "randoms" tend to blindly follow a tag, and every random that follows someone "roaming around" is a random that's missing during attacks on- or defenses of structures. In the past (where you had one Server per side in WvW) there were cases were hostile servers had their own players transfer to other servers to "sabotage" them, and tagging up without doing "proper" zergwork was one of the ways they did it, so it doesn't surprise me that you would get salty WvWer whispers thrown at you. Don't take it too badly, if you didn't know it before, you do so now 🙂

edit: If you want to do a squad for roamers (whereas the squad chat works like a intra-roamer chat) you can do so with a private squad, and advertise it in mapchat to the roamers. 

As for the PvE content, its mostly about a mix of cluttering-avoidance and high expectations - a squad usually means something more or less important, and when it turns out not-to-be something important, players get miffed about the "unneeded" additional tag on their minimap. You can still do PvE roaming squads though - the way to do it would be to go private (a checkbox - will hide your tag from those not in your squad), re-enable public joining, and advertise your squad in LFG as a PvE roaming and conversation squad. 

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Sad to hear this. I’ve thought about using the mentor tag to gather groups for some of the LW stuff, but I’m always worried it’ll look like I know what I’m doing. Most of the time I barely do, so I don’t.

You can still do that, just write in mapchat what you "apple'd up" for in advance 😛 generally players are less miffed (if at all) about mentor tags popping up, and they are regularly used by those who need help with something that isn't necessarily profitable - or in short: there are less expectations for mentor tags than there are for commander tags

Edited by phirefox.2568
added remarks about private squads in wvw, second edit for remarks reg. mentor tags, some more applications
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Yea I kinda agree. Tag up if you want. Screw em! Some times it can be a catch 22. As in if no expert is around and no one else tags cause of such expectation then the event just stays totally disorganized. No I say just tag up and be chill and willing to admit you arent pro but are tagging cause no one else is or what ever.

If someone is experienced and wants to do better, be open to letting them and maybe learn from them. Otherwise, who cares what other people say if no one else is offering to do better. 

I think that would serve the community best overall. People shouldnt be affraid to tag up, but also people without experience should be open to letting someone else tag up when it would be best.

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3 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Ehh, screw'em. As long as you're not tagging over other people, nobody should give you crap for using a tag. It's not like they pay you, so you owe them nothing.

Well, WvW is a completely different story. You can randomly tag up on EBG, because most people there are PUGs just having fun and doing their own thing, with lots of people not even joining squads - but the three home maps are "serious business" to most WvW players and they do expect you to keep an eye on the state of objects and enemy movement at least (ideally also know a thing or two about combat movement, though that's best achieved if the Commander and all players in their squad come together on voice chat for proper communication).

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1 hour ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Well, WvW is a completely different story. You can randomly tag up on EBG, because most people there are PUGs just having fun and doing their own thing, with lots of people not even joining squads - but the three home maps are "serious business" to most WvW players and they do expect you to keep an eye on the state of objects and enemy movement at least (ideally also know a thing or two about combat movement, though that's best achieved if the Commander and all players in their squad come together on voice chat for proper communication).

Same thing really.

For pugmanding where you plan to lead the whole map against the enemy, sure. But there's plenty of scout and havoc tags that do their own thing and tag more so that everyone knows their location. At the end of the day, it's the player's prerogative to follow or not and not the commander's duty to babysit anyone regardless of expectations. In most cases, some organization for pugs is better than none.

The more serious players don't need a tag anyways, or have formed private parties/squads. In general, I only see the "serious business" people on home BL, and you don't have to listen to them if you don't want to.

Oh, and I usually tell prospective tags to tag on red BL. It's the least popular map and as a result really easy to get people to join and take easy targets. That's a good way to get started, and at least people will stick around when something's being done.

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
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Suggest in WvW that you might specify that you are an less seasoned commander and to please be patient and helpful...possibly at less popular times of day, so the more intense players don't get all grumpy.  I've joined comms that have asked on map chat if anyone would be interested in letting them get some practice, and it's quite fun!  Ignore the whiners.

 

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Also having also recently purchased one, congratulations on your investment.  I've enjoyed having one in open world to get players to a point more quickly, especially the return to living world seasons.  Most people appreciate someone putting one up for quick reference... especially less familiar players.

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13 hours ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Suggest in WvW that you might specify that you are an less seasoned commander and to please be patient and helpful...possibly at less popular times of day, so the more intense players don't get all grumpy.  I've joined comms that have asked on map chat if anyone would be interested in letting them get some practice, and it's quite fun!  Ignore the whiners.

I'm not the OP but I might try that.

 

I've tagged up for PvE events sometimes but never been confident doing it in WvW because whilst I mostly know my way around I get lost sometimes or end up taking the long way and I don't remember all the best spots to place siege and things like that. But I am sometimes on maps where there's several people taking camps but no tags and no organised groups going for bigger objectives, so maybe I could try tagging up and just explain that I'm practicing.

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17 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

Well, WvW is a completely different story. You can randomly tag up on EBG, because most people there are PUGs just having fun and doing their own thing, with lots of people not even joining squads - but the three home maps are "serious business" to most WvW players and they do expect you to keep an eye on the state of objects and enemy movement at least (ideally also know a thing or two about combat movement, though that's best achieved if the Commander and all players in their squad come together on voice chat for proper communication).

Sure but honestly so what. If people wana tag up in WvW they SHOULD just tag up and tell anyone who doesnt like it to get a life and leave them alone. Any experienced WvW players know who the tags are they follow, they know what to do. I mean I wouldnt suggest a totaly new to wvw person tags up for the most part just because I dont see allot of value in tagging up in wvw till you have idea what to do. That said, I also know some guilds do weekly guild missions or guild squads and I dont think that detracts from everyone else's ability to play serious wvw.

 

In other words, I think experienced wvw players know which tags are the one to follow and if other people tag up and do Missions or even just run around with a small Havoc taking towers and what ever. I Dont agree that its harmful to wvw or the players. Quite the opposite. That is, I think people who discourage people from tagging for fear of making a mistake or cause they arent an official server tag are part of a problem with WvW. WvW would be much less dead if it didnt do such a good job of turning non-veterans away.

 

I have done plenty of wvw. Some tags are good some arent but no tag is the worst for organized play. Too many tags just means people have to pay attention to which tag they are following which any slightly experienced player should have no issues doing. Every squad has its own communication channels and often discord for voip. So I see zero reason why other people tagging up to do Missions, havoc around or anything matters to anyone. Hell most good commanders run a closed squad anyway so new people cant even join them. 😉

 

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When you tag up you are basically volunteering to lead other people through some content or whatever.
So it's pretty much expected that you know what you're doing when you do tag up.

This is way more important in competitive WvW than it is in PvE.. In WvW you really have to know what you are doing and you have to know how to run a squad and how large battles work there.. if you don't you're going to get destroyed by enemy and ally alike lol

WvW is not a place you want to be randomly tagging up, if you want to command in WvW you really should seek out a WvW guild that does commander training and get yourself trained up by experienced WvW commanders.

As for PvE it's more forgiving but if you tag up for big PvE things like meta event chains, Raids, Strike Missions and the more difficult world bosses like Triple Trouble then yes again you should know what you are doing there and players will expect you to know what you are doing there.

However there are plenty of others things in PvE you can tag up for as well such as bounty board quest/events or random events and champions etc.. generic group content.
These kinds of things don't require any real knowledge or experience and can typically be beaten by any motley crew of random players, or even solo.
So you can simply tag up to advertise that you want to do this content, or advertise that there is a big bad thing at your location and you want help to take it down and everyone else is welcome to come join you and help defeat it.
A lot of people when they see a Commander Tag in PvE will scurry on over to see what's going on there and many will just follow it around for a while and kill stuff because it's easy loot.
Rarely should you get complaints if you use a tag for that.
I certainly haven't and that's pretty much all i've ever used it for, a big come here and get loot button lol.

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27 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

When you tag up you are basically volunteering to lead other people through some content or whatever.
So it's pretty much expected that you know what you're doing when you do tag up.

This is way more important in competitive WvW than it is in PvE.. In WvW you really have to know what you are doing and you have to know how to run a squad and how large battles work there.. if you don't you're going to get destroyed by enemy and ally alike lol

WvW is not a place you want to be randomly tagging up, if you want to command in WvW you really should seek out a WvW guild that does commander training and get yourself trained up by experienced WvW commanders.

As for PvE it's more forgiving but if you tag up for big PvE things like meta event chains, Raids, Strike Missions and the more difficult world bosses like Triple Trouble then yes again you should know what you are doing there and players will expect you to know what you are doing there.

However there are plenty of others things in PvE you can tag up for as well such as bounty board quest/events or random events and champions etc.. generic group content.
These kinds of things don't require any real knowledge or experience and can typically be beaten by any motley crew of random players, or even solo.
So you can simply tag up to advertise that you want to do this content, or advertise that there is a big bad thing at your location and you want help to take it down and everyone else is welcome to come join you and help defeat it.
A lot of people when they see a Commander Tag in PvE will scurry on over to see what's going on there and many will just follow it around for a while and kill stuff because it's easy loot.
Rarely should you get complaints if you use a tag for that.
I certainly haven't and that's pretty much all i've ever used it for, a big come here and get loot button lol.

Your view is too narrow. Not everyone in wvw is doing the same thing and thats how its designed. Like I said before, if some people wana tag up and do Guild Missions or run a small havoc with n > 5 then they tag up and I think that makes sense cause wtf else can they do. Furthermore, the idea that this somehow spoils wvw for everyone else is a a total fallacy perpetrated due to ignorance and elitism.

 

That said, you wana "command" as in being an official tag coordinating with the rest of the server/alliance then sure experience is best, but again too narrow of a view. I used to play at off hours frequently. Trust me! During those hours people appreciate any tag who is willing to try and do the job. Some times a server doesnt have an experienced tag on, some times the tag(s) are staying on another map. What I mean is, WvW is FULL of situations in which your suggestion would lead to less coordination and that server losing assets they could otherwise defend due to lack of tags because of some narrow view that only specific people should ever tag up in wvw. Its just the wrong way of doing things. That said, no one is suggesting a new player should go buy a tag and run around in wvw without a clue. Im am directly saying tho that plenty of times is fine and also beneficial when people without allot of wvw commanding experience tag up. Particularly, when they have some idea how to play wvw. TBH in off hours with a small group some times roamers and scouts can make very good tags cause they know how to track down small groups, roamers, etc and point them out which is some times all that's needed. Plenty of experienced wvw players are capable of being ok commanders when a "trained commander" isnt available. No sorry I think what you suggest would lead to an underpopulated game mode. Ohh wait....

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At the end of the day, there's no reason to be toxic. If the commander is losing too much for your liking, then keep your distance and take advantage by sniping overextending enemies and covering your allies' retreat, or do your own thing.

WvW players need to be dynamic. If they're hung up on tag reliance, then they need to get good.

Although some may argue this is true of both PvE and WvW. In many ways we as a group have been quite spoiled by helpful people and need to learn to appreciate it. Commanders are not manufactured by factory line and too many players forget what it is like to be new.

My server in particular has driven off a lot of commanders that could have been helping throughout the years, and also tends to make too many random demands over things that do not require a zerg to do (just use the cannon kitten). The result is that there are really few tags and many groups ended  up running private or moving. It did not help these players did not improve themselves and were zero contribution to a squad.

So when people ask "why there is no tag", that is the result.

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
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