Why is the Desert Borderland disliked?

[Sviel.7493]

@Chaba.5410You initially mentioned it in the context of fight generation.  This seemed to imply that DBL would have fewer fights generated due to a difference in fight lanes.  My point was that objectives are what actually generate fights.  Thus, the only people experiencing fewer fights on DBL are the people who do not hit any objectives (of whom there are plenty).

If all you're saying is that the fights on ABL are more likely to happen before an objective is directly hit, then I agree with that, but it is a difference in the location of the fight rather than the number of overall fights.

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I just found it funny at the time that a lot of players before DBL was introduced would complain about how opponents could treb garrison from the "safety" of the northern towers.  Anet "fixed" that by placing the towers far away up in the corners of the map, removing that strategy.  Then everyone hated it.  That's just one example out of a few of things Anet "fixed" for the players when they designed DBL originally.  Just goes to show that Anet shouldn't actually listen to the playerbase sometimes.  We can come up with some pretty terrible ideas.

 

Probably the same dunderheads that sat in garrison watching fireballs from those towers without trying any counters, now these days they build shield gens instead to counter. Same ones that watch treb fire from swt into bay, and won't bother to even go build a ballista in the ruins to counter it.

 

Not the first time anet listened to the wrong people, won't be the last.

[Bristingr.5034]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

1. Distance

2. Verticality : more likely to die to fall damage than Alpine or EBG

3. No tower interaction with keeps whatsoever (originally there were destroyable rock walls blocking off sections when you owned towers)

4. Keep lords are extremely annoying (the air keep one ignores stability)

5. Extreme emptiness in middle due to the removed lagfest laser event

Arguably warclaw should have only been usable on Desert BL.

1. The Firenadoes/Asuran Pads/Birbs take care of that problem.

2. I see people dying all the time in the Alpines from fall damage. People just refuse to look before they jump.

3. Towers are a MAJOR improvement in Desert. Actually room to fight in there unlike the Alpine towers.

4. Variety is better.

5. Same can be said about Alpine. Nobody fights there.

[Infusion.7149]

You can't use the tornados/asuran pads unless you own the keep.

Variety is better if it actually acknowledges game mechanics. Having  a ring on air keep that outright ignores stability means if you play a full melee build and it ports around with you in the ring you essentially do nothing. There isn't this issue in Fire keep.

[Chaba.5410]

19 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

 

Probably the same dunderheads that sat in garrison watching fireballs from those towers without trying any counters, now these days they build shield gens instead to counter. Same ones that watch treb fire from swt into bay, and won't bother to even go build a ballista in the ruins to counter it.

 

Not the first time anet listened to the wrong people, won't be the last.

Pretty much.  Also the players who were outnumbered and couldn't counter the zerg defending the tower, to which I say if they can't muster a force against that zerg then why should they be able to hold onto garrison in the first place?

[Norbe.7630]

But yeah, once upon a time i envisioned that an fps game mode will be added to GW2 in a competitive gamemode and add the EoTM map to the existing WvW map as its 3rd map and replace EOTM with the FPS mode in water combat.

Siege turtle is similar to BF4's Attack helicopter flown 2 man to replace the EoTM lobby as waiting for queue on the WvW.
Or is it the other way around that WvW will be the queue map for that FPS mode since the game will also attract fps players from other games.

New mmo games will not be titled as WoW killer anymore. They will make better as make new tagline as GW2 Killer.

Alliance is cancelled btw. 😂

 

 

[Svarty.8019]

7 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

4. Keep lords are extremely annoying (the air keep one ignores stability)

I love the keep lords (except the garbage robot).

 

The air keep lord is especially awesome - So many great, desperate last-stands have succeeded because the lord is actually useful for once. THIS is what lords should be, not some weak-kitten bag of hitpoints.

 

Please can we have an interesting game that makes defending viable rather than some boring karmatrain where resistance is futile.

[Dagger.2035]

16 hours ago, Norbe.7630 said:

-Now, the barricades that slow down ktrainers and fight runners. Here comes the wannabe roamers on forums pretending they are good roamers.

"Oboi I cannot outrun a real roamer from my infinite dodge and infinite stealth build, ahhhhh! im cornered to a barricade, hes catching up, i gotta destroy this barricade to escape him, ahhhh! he killed me....i cannot fight  back on a good player"

Goes to forum, Anet plos remove barricades, i demand you! its not good and not healthy for the game mode.!!!.

The biggest problem with the map is that the travel time and terrain prevented roamers from responding to white swords.  It makes it too easy to avoid fights.  Barricades were awful since they severely punished roamers by making them loop around the towers in the corners of the map.  Yet a zerg can destroy them easily.  It seems backwards to me.  Barricades should punish zergs more.  

[Shroud.2307]

15 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

 

Probably the same dunderheads that sat in garrison watching fireballs from those towers without trying any counters, now these days they build shield gens instead to counter. Same ones that watch treb fire from swt into bay, and won't bother to even go build a ballista in the ruins to counter it.

 

Not the first time anet listened to the wrong people, won't be the last.

Because that involves leaving the objective, and to the vast majority of players, that's a terrifying concept without the support of a zerg.
Way too many people in this game that are afraid to make themselves vulnerable, as though dying has some kind of serious consequence.

You can actually accomplish quite a lot by yourself if you know what you're doing, and you won't learn without experimenting. I'm able to almost completely de-siege objectives by myself, it's just a matter of when I get spotted doing it. Sometimes it takes a while because I'll need to run back and forth from a camp a bunch to build a Ballista and/or Arrow Cart, but the point is that it isn't difficult yet you rarely see people doing this. Instead, everyone wants to just sit in a Tower rotating Shield Gen blocks or AFK firing Trebs for hours because it's safe.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[ArchonWing.9480]

7 hours ago, Dagger.2035 said:

The biggest problem with the map is that the travel time and terrain prevented roamers from responding to white swords.  It makes it too easy to avoid fights.  Barricades were awful since they severely punished roamers by making them loop around the towers in the corners of the map.  Yet a zerg can destroy them easily.  It seems backwards to me.  Barricades should punish zergs more.  

They fixed that by removing the barricades. It's not hard to get to NW or NE tower through the back entrances.

But what hasn't changed is that these towers are huge and require more babysitting as you have to go around and check to see if random group is trying to ninja your tower. A lot of DBL objectives can be cata'd from some random cliff that is extremely hard or annoying to get to. That makes the best tactic (eg, just leaving the tower and killing them) more annoying. And even if you do, they can just come back and nobody wants to put up with that crap except the most hardcore of defenders

It also doesn't help that DBL is given to the weakest server. That usually just means south DBL becomes a karma train for the other 2 servers.

Ironically, sometimes people will PPT  to avoid being red next week. And that tells you a lot.

Edited September 25, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Tiawal.2351]

Desert borderland is like a running simulator (have to run a lot). Sounds healthy, but isn't, because the map it's a maze. Much climbing and jumping required. Even after years, I still don't know which way to go and really hate wasting time figuring it out. Don't have time for desert borderland.

 

When finally a fight starts, the terrain allows an easy way to escape for one side. Thus all the fun gone.

 

Dying from fall damage, in a fight or during travel, is another frequently used gimmick in the sPvP maps, that I don't enjoy. Not even killing others this way. Just feels cheap. Pranks rarely are fun in long term use.

 

Add to these a large amount of invisible collision objects that make your skills "obstructed", though you can't see what is the reason, there's nothing there (would be visible in dev mode), and even getting stuck in them, have to walk back or even jump to get out.

 

Then the objectives are massive and maze and one way street (most of the map is). One can be lost in own keep and take long to figure out how to move around. I would need a Black Desert Online style auto navigation on this map, still would hate it, because all I'm asking on it is "are we there yet?" and let's port away from this nightmare.

[Sviel.7493]

Now seems as good a time as ever to mention that there isn't a single inter-objective path on DBL that requires a jump or a deviation from a clearly marked path.  There's one that's a little faster with a jump (SEC -> Airkeep), but it has a haybale so it's perfectly safe.

Meanwhile, anytime you leave the north corner on ABL you have at least one cliff jump.  See: NET -> NEC and NWT -> NWC.

Thus, when people complain about myriad, dangerous jumps, it's best to understand that they either don't know what they're talking about or are catastrophically bad at following roads.  It's like they don't remember the memes about commanders leading zergs off of those ABL cliffs.

[crewthief.8649]

On 9/24/2021 at 2:17 PM, Norbe.7630 said:

Yeah if they can tweak those aqua weapons and the End of Dragon Xpac is aqua based, then maybe the Siege Turtle can be used in aquatic combat... or another mount.

And it may not be the regular footman battles anymore, it would look like a Gundam in space or Spaceship battles (in underwater) FPS mode by tweaking the action cam function 3D battles

But its just me.
 

 

These guys can’t even be bothered to design new animations for EoD especs and you think they’ll revamp every underwater skill across all the classes? Not to come off as a jerk, but come on bro, this is not the same Anet that developed HoT…

[Gibson.4036]

16 minutes ago, crewthief.8649 said:

These guys can’t even be bothered to design new animations for EoD especs and you think they’ll revamp every underwater skill across all the classes? Not to come off as a jerk, but come on bro, this is not the same Anet that developed HoT…

As a designer myself, when you see copy-pasted work it’s not because the designers “can’t be bothered”. It’s because management has not allocated the resources and the designers are frantically doing what they can to meet deadlines in the time they have.

We don’t become designers to copy paste our work. The best parts of our jobs are creating new things we’ve never made before. When we copy paste, we do it out of sheer survival.

Your point, however, stands. It’s unlikely a thorough rework of underwater skills is on the table.

Edited September 26, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[crewthief.8649]

1 minute ago, Gibson.4036 said:

As a designer myself, when you see copy-pasted work it’s not because the designers “can’t be bothered”. It’s because management has not allocated the resources and the designers are frantically doing what they can to meet deadlines in the time they have.

We don’t become designers to copy paste our work. The best parts of our jobs are creating new things we’ve never made before. When we copy paste, we do it out of sheer survival.

Okay, well it’s a matter of management not providing resources to their people. I stand corrected on the parties at fault, but my conclusion remains the same.

[Xenesis.6389]

7 hours ago, Sviel.7493 said:

Meanwhile, anytime you leave the north corner on ABL you have at least one cliff jump.  See: NET -> NEC and NWT -> NWC.
 

 

The south part of that net cliff has a mid cliff to drop to, to safely come down. The actual death drop area isn't that big, the north area that cliff drops off to safe levels fairly quickly. Reason why people die to that cliff these days is probably because the tower is not owned and they forget this when gliding off instead. The nwt ramp is short, the drop to camp can be negated with a mid drop on the wooden wall. More importantly the walk arounds for safe drops are very short, unlike dbl.

 

All cliffs on the beaten path have mid cliffs to drop down safely, there's even one in hills to drop back into it's valley, there's barely any of these on dbl which probably confused people a lot about it instead they have hay bales which frankly are not very visible and easy to miss and weren't even in the initial release. It's obvious the map was designed with gliders in mind.

 

Sure there's a lot of interesting places to fight in dbl, but the biggest problem for me still is all the garbage on the ground you need to avoid. It's guaranteed every single time I step in there that some random root, pothole, or invisible barrier will stop you dead in your tracks. Why just yesterday I dropped into a hidden 10ft hole I never knew about in fire keep while in the middle of a fight, couldn't get back out lol. Stuff like that just kills the enjoyment.

[Sviel.7493]

@Xenesis.6389Once you get used to the jumps, deaths should be rare--my point is that such jumps exist on ABL but not really on DBL.  There's no reason to jump off any cliffs to get from point A to point B.  It's also worth noting that since you can't jump up cliffs, the one-way camp -> tower route is ~50% longer on ABL than on DBL (62s vs. 42s).

 

Prior to the hay bales, the SEC -> Airkeep route had much more terracing and no speed gain from jumping.  It was only after that terracing was scaled back to remove chokepoints that the bales were added and the jump shortcut was created.

 

But I'm not here to say that everything about DBL is rosy.  Just, many of the common complaints don't make a whole lot of sense in light of the facts on the ground.

BTW, where is that 10ft hole in Firekeep?  My team has been blue for months so I haven't been inside it since...last spring?

Edited September 26, 2021 by Sviel.7493

[Xenesis.6389]

1 minute ago, Sviel.7493 said:

BTW, where is that 10ft hole in Firekeep?  My team has been blue for months so I haven't been inside it since...last spring?

 

When you go up on the north inner ramp instead of turning right to continue up the ramp to lords, turn left onto the cliff area there. I think mid way along the wall there's a cubby or something to drop down, not sure how visible it is, since that area is dark as it is, and we were in the middle of a zerg fight and I got knocked back into it. I looked up and saw combat numbers, had no idea what happened, if there's an actual hole or I got pushed through a wall. My queue had popped mid fight so I took it to get out, didn't have time to see if I could somehow jumping puzzle back out.

[TheGrimm.5624]

Love DBL. Your mileage will vary from server to server about it.  Been playing it for years and still finding new options on it. Unlike ABL where if you say cata wall on hills people typically are talking the same wall from server to server. ABL has been stale for years and needed updates and replacement a long time ago. Hoping we get either an additional map as a 5th or 6th with the new expansion and if not additional then at least a replacement for one of the ABLs. The issue people took with DBL was that it didn't follow the same philosophy that ABL had in flow in their eyes. Its openness also meant there wasn't just 3 paths to watch for the enemy to be coming from and therefore they can't just sit in a tower to wait. Though Earth keep (Garri) shares the weakness that Hills, Bay and ABL Garri have the other keeps require more and feel less like overgrown towers the way that ABL keeps do. So OP, no, not everyone hates DBL. 

[Gibson.4036]

2 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

So OP, no, not everyone hates DBL. 

Thanks. I've learned that and a bunch of other stuff over the course of this thread. I'm glad I threw the question out there, and I'm glad so many people answered from various perspectives.

It definitely feels different, and over the past couple weeks I've enjoyed it as much as my time in alpine and EBG, in different ways. So far I haven't fallen off anything to my death, and while my first few hours were a bit confusing (flat map means you head toward something only to find you are way below it even though it looks like you're standing right next to it) but I'm learning it's routes pretty quickly.

It seems to come down to what each person likes most about WvW, and one thing I've learned very quickly is that covers a wide variety of tastes.

[ariel.5038]

It's my favourite borderland map. Once you learn all the shortcuts etc, it's fun and easy to traverse. 

[Xenesis.6389]

4 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Unlike ABL where if you say cata wall on hills people typically are talking the same wall from server to server. 

 

I don't really see that as a bad thing. The three keeps have a nicknamed entrances that allows players to instantly recognize what is being attacked without even needing to look at the map. Water gate, murder gate, wurm gate, cata wall, you instantly know where they are, now try that for any of the dbl keeps other than watergate, there's a nw wall in air, which I can't even remember what the nickname is now, that's how rarely it's used. Having familiar names over all three maps is not a bad thing, it makes it easier to respond quickly without having to look up stuff (which is why I hate when people use objective links instead of cardinal directions on borderlands).

 

Heck I don't even know why they changed the keep names either on dbl, earth should have stayed as garrison (everyone still calls it garrison), especially since saying ek is confusing on servers like mag where ek means east keep not earth keep, fortunately most of mag doesn't play on dbl so when playing with them you can just default it back to earth keep, mostly. Fire keep probably should have been Lava Bay, and air keep should have been I dunno Sandy Hills.

 

Probably no point learning the outer entrances for dbl keeps anyways, since by the time people get to respond to anything the enemy is usually on inner already. It's the reason why you don't even bother with siege on the outer areas either.

 

 

[Sviel.7493]

4 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

 

I don't really see that as a bad thing. The three keeps have a nicknamed entrances that allows players to instantly recognize what is being attacked without even needing to look at the map. Water gate, murder gate, wurm gate, cata wall, you instantly know where they are, now try that for any of the dbl keeps other than watergate, there's a nw wall in air, which I can't even remember what the nickname is now, that's how rarely it's used. Having familiar names over all three maps is not a bad thing, it makes it easier to respond quickly without having to look up stuff (which is why I hate when people use objective links instead of cardinal directions on borderlands).

As an avid DBL fan, our name for the NW wall of Airkeep is...NW Airkeep.  It's pretty easy to remember, imo.  When I end up on ABL, I don't always know what people mean when they say Murdergate or Watergate (I just had to figure these out again today).  But cardinal directions are self-explanatory.  Since walls are evenly spaced on keeps in DBL, every one maps cleanly onto some cardinal direction.

As an aside (not a direct response), one of my favorite things about DBL is that Anet used consistent names across all three maps.  The reason Bay/Hills/Garrison are instantly recognizable as such is because they are called that on each map.  On DBL, this was extended to all objectives.  For example, the SWC is always ____ Encampment and the NEC is always ____ Refuge.  The towers are the same.  There's some name or descriptor in front, then a common name across all maps (Academy, Necropolis, etc.)  This is much easier for me than trying to remember what and where Stargrove is.  Unfortunately, that's kind of lost since DBL is down to one map.

[Danikat.8537]

On 9/24/2021 at 6:57 PM, Sviel.7493 said:

Congratulations, you've kicked the hornet's nest!

DBL was designed for a version of WvW that had long since ceased to exist by the time it was released.  If you go onto the old forums and look at player complaints from the early days of WvW, people said that the map (Alpine) was too small and too zerg friendly and that upgrades were too expensive and so on.  DBL increased the map size, reduced sight lines to allow small teams to do sneaky stuff and a bunch of other things that players directly asked for...but it came too late.  The players who wanted those things had largely quit due to years of silence from Anet.  The remaining crowd was hyper-focused on having large-scale fights--preferably on open fields with no interference from objectives or the map.  Thus, when DBL dropped, the fights-oriented players hated that it wasn't 75% open fields like Alpine.

That's the short version, anyway.  There's a lot more--the whole thing is a superbly interesting debacle.  The map also had substantial flaws on release, though most of those have been addressed or toned down.  The backlash was also amplified because HoT dropped at the same time with new guild hall mechanics that forced WvW players into PvE to get their bonuses back.  This meant a huge drop in the playerbase at the exact time the larger maps came in...it was a mess.

That's interesting to me because that's exactly why I like the Desert Borderlands.

 

My least favourite form of WvW is when it's just two groups meeting up somewhere to farm each other over and over, it's rarely interesting tactics, it's more likely to just be spamming AoE skills while running in circles. Sometimes I've even seen commanders reminding people to make sure they stay roughly the same distance from the other group and that both groups are circling the same way so one doesn't wipe out the other. It's probably good for farming loot and XP but I find it very repetitive and boring. I much prefer focusing on objectives, and fighting off attackers/defenders around them rather than just farming each other in the open.

 

On EU that does still happen and it seems much more common on Desert Borderlands than the other maps (I play on Desolation, but I see other servers doing it as well). It is often less populated overall but to my mind it's the best choice to find interesting WvW gameplay, and the fact that there's lots of things a solo player or small group can capture helps because it makes it less boring to wait and see if a squad is going to get together.

[Cuks.8241]

There are a few guilds on my server that really like DBL so I do see plenty of action there. I generally like the map.

I do think a new mechanic would be in order though. Portable way point that could be deployed and build. It should be somewhat restricted like can't be deployed in the vicinity of keeps and towers, only one per map per side, maybe even time restriction. Maybe condition would be that you own a side keep.