[PVE]My feedback - Vindicator needed redesign

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

But one is a block, the other is an evade.

Is it your opinion this difference gives GS a different feel to playing vs. S/S? I don't. If I'm going to hit my 'damage mitigation' skill, whether it's a block or an evade is almost no consequence. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Obtena.7952]

3 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Just because an attack is striking multiple foes does not mean it’s cleaving.  Cleaving means striking multiple foes simultaneously.  With the exception of sword 1 and 2 (and sword 2 still is incentivized to strike a single foe), sword 3/4/5 all either strike only one target, or spread single target strikes across multiple foes.  This is a massively important distinction.  S/S is definitively a single target focused weapon with some limited multi-target potential. 

True, these differences are functionally important ... but in terms of difference in playing, they aren't. My concern here isn't to nitpick the differences. It's to recognize all the similarities and how it feels to play. 

Quote

I agree with you though that GS feels a bit redundant with S/S. It’s fairly uninspired IMO and there’s definitely room for improvement. 

I think you know where I'm coming from as we discuss this. I'm concerned very little for the small differences that exist. If I'm getting a weaponset on an espec that mimics an existing weaponset, that's pretty unsatisfactory to me. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Is it your opinion this difference gives GS a different feel to playing vs. S/S? I don't. 

Actually yes I do.  Gs has a two skill effect in skill 4.  The block press, then the damage press.  Slso, the damage side of the skill ramps up with more blocked hits.  Sword 3 is just a single press that is more of an evade.

[Obtena.7952]

7 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Actually yes I do.  Gs has a two skill effect in skill 4.  The block press, then the damage press.  Slso, the damage side of the skill ramps up with more blocked hits.  Sword 3 is just a single press that is more of an evade.

OK. I mean, if that's a significant differentiator to you, it's clear why you don't understand my problem with the similarities between GS and S/S. To me, a few differences isn't significant because those differences have to be meaningful when I'm swapping weapons. For me, swapping GS to S/S is completely meaningless because they offer the same things, with exception of GS5.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

55 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

OK. I mean, if that's a significant differentiator to you, it's clear why you don't understand my problem with the similarities between GS and S/S

There’s no need to be snarky.  Like I said earlier, I agree Gs was a bit lackluster, especially with Gs 1,2,3 I just don’t necessarily agree with your comparison of the other two skill. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[Obtena.7952]

Just now, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

There’s no need to be snarky.  Like I said earlier, I agree Gs was a bit lackluster, especially with Gs 1,2,3 I just don’t necessarily agree with your comparison of the other two skills.

It's not snarky ... we have different opinions about what is significant. 🤔

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

44 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's not snarky ... we have different opinions about what is significant. 🤔

On one skill.   You’re arguing about one skill….😑

 

I'm not sure that really qualifies as a complete difference of opinions on the weapon set. 

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

On one skill.   You’re arguing about one skill….😑

I'm not sure that really qualifies as a complete difference of opinions on the weapon set. 

That sort of goes to the point ... if we had all these different skills that differentiated the GS and S/S weapon sets to be swappably meaningful, we wouldn't be discussing JUST the one skill ... or any because my opinion would be nonsensical at that point. I don't have a issue with your opinion. If the differentiation between the two is significant enough for you to be meaningful, I won't disagree with that. For me the weapon differences are insignificant. 

It's not even really THAT big a deal to be fair. I think at best, it's a lost opportunity for Anet to give more unique feel to the GS. I got way larger issue with the similarity in the middle traits than I do the weapon similarity.

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[SidewayS.3789]

It's safe to say that this spec isn't for Endgame Content Fractals/Raids or w/e Strikes will be in EoD. 

[Shao.7236]

Revenant has good Power builds be it Core, Herald or Renegade. Many included me claimed that Vindicator wouldn't change the pace or add in better Power builds because we already have good content.

 

Vindicator is not going to be changed and like I said myself personally, Greatsword would be wasted. What do you know, it kinda was since other than the evade you could have used anything. Throwing Dagger, Scepter etc.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

3 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Revenant has good Power builds be it Core, Herald or Renegade. Many included me claimed that Vindicator wouldn't change the pace or add in better Power builds because we already have good content.

 

Vindicator is not going to be changed and like I said myself personally, Greatsword would be wasted. What do you know, it kinda was since other than the evade you could have used anything. Throwing Dagger, Scepter etc.

😕I mean, a lot of people were asking for aoe, 5 target cleaver.  I think that’s what GS was supposed to provide. 

[Shao.7236]

17 hours ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

😕I mean, a lot of people were asking for aoe, 5 target cleaver.  I think that’s what GS was supposed to provide. 

Yet we only get one skill from it that truly does so while the utility is interesting but in no way helping it.

 

Hammer is still the better choice for purely power cleave on multiple targets in a technical sense.

 

They could at least redeem GS2 with a persistent vulnerability pulse AoE in the same way they do Mace 2, however Renegade is otherwise still on top with general purpose, it's gonna be hard to beat it.

[wolfyrik.2017]

On 10/20/2021 at 8:23 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

OK. I mean, if that's a significant differentiator to you, it's clear why you don't understand my problem with the similarities between GS and S/S. To me, a few differences isn't significant because those differences have to be meaningful when I'm swapping weapons. For me, swapping GS to S/S is completely meaningless because they offer the same things, with exception of GS5.

The thing that gets me here is while s/s 5  vs Gs5 is not meaningful enough, what little difference remains seems to be obliterated by going s/a instead. in fact I'd argue that s/a is not just too similar to GS it's actually better because the pull on s/a5 allows the player to secure the albeit limited aoe damage.

[Obtena.7952]

24 minutes ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

The thing that gets me here is while s/s 5  vs Gs5 is not meaningful enough, what little difference remains seems to be obliterated by going s/a instead. in fact I'd argue that s/a is not just too similar to GS it's actually better because the pull on s/a5 allows the player to secure the albeit limited aoe damage.

Sure, in some situations the pull from Axe will be more useful than the AOE attack on GS5. But I'm not really fussed about how different skills are more useful in different situations. In fact, that's what I'm petitioning for; GS isn't any more useful than S/S because of how similar they are in their function. They SHOULD be different enough to make players consider using either depending on the situation. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

21 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Yet we only get one skill from it that truly does so while the utility is interesting but in no way helping it.

 

Hammer is still the better choice for purely power cleave on multiple targets in a technical sense.

 

They could at least redeem GS2 with a persistent vulnerability pulse AoE in the same way they do Mace 2, however Renegade is otherwise still on top with general purpose, it's gonna be hard to beat it.

Well skill 5 is the aoe for sure.  However, the rest of the skills are 5 target, so I’m not sure about your argument there.

 

also, hammer is ranged, Gs is melee.

 

i think all of us could agree that GS seems to be missing something and needs a bit more.  I was really hoping to see a trident treatment. 

[Shao.7236]

On 10/25/2021 at 1:25 PM, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Well skill 5 is the aoe for sure.  However, the rest of the skills are 5 target, so I’m not sure about your argument there.

 

also, hammer is ranged, Gs is melee.

 

i think all of us could agree that GS seems to be missing something and needs a bit more.  I was really hoping to see a trident treatment. 

We're talking Power AoE damage though, the skills are 5 target but the range of those skills is extremely lack luster, trying to hit more than 1 target with any of the skills BUT GS5 is harder than just lining up targets with Hammer 2 or Bomb in with Hammer 3. It may be ranged but all of the skills are just useful in a multi-target sense that GS tries but fails to, only the Dodge is really any good at it.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

21 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

We're talking Power AoE damage though, the skills are 5 target but the range of those skills is extremely lack luster, trying to hit more than 5 targets with any of the skills BUT GS5 is harder than just lining up targets with Hammer 2 or Bomb in with Hammer 3. It may be ranged but all of the skills are just useful in a multi-target sense that GS tries but fails to, only the Dodge is really any good at it.

I’m pretty sure that’s how melee works…..melee range.  🤔

[Shao.7236]

6 hours ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

I’m pretty sure that’s how melee works…..melee range.  🤔

Just to put in perspective. Sword 2 has more reach than GS 2.

[SidewayS.3789]

At least Vindicator made me changing my main. I guess it's a win/win for me.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Just to put in perspective. Sword 2 has more reach than GS 2.

Because of the projectiles?  Same melee range on the swing itself though.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Lonewolf Kai.3682

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

4 hours ago, SidewayS.3789 said:

At least Vindicator made me changing my main. I guess it's a win/win for me.

As in abandoning it?  Or changing to Rev?

[Catchyfx.5768]

40 minutes ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

As in abandoning it?  Or changing to Rev?

Guess abandoning it.

Yea I just made lege heavy armor few weeks back. Atleast FB will use it.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Catchyfx.5768
Forgot to mention something

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

1 hour ago, Catchyfx.5768 said:

Guess abandoning it.

Yea I just made lege heavy armor few weeks back. Atleast FB will use it.

Well that’s too bad,.  I’m quite the opposite.  I’ll be maining Rev again.

[Shao.7236]

2 hours ago, Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

Because of the projectiles?  Same melee range on the swing itself though.

What projectile? Just saying that Chilling Isolation has more reach overall that GS which you'd expect to be bigger and badder, something as big as at least Mallyx CtA if it had to be a frontal cone like it is because even the visual is extremely misleading.