I wish necro would be nerfed so I could play one.

[Dadnir.5038]

8 hours ago, Zero.3871 said:

i cant remember necro shroud mechanic got any buffs till 2012 (plz name examples if im wrong)

- Spectral skills got their LF gain allowed in shroud in 2014 or 2015. (Made for a very interesting week where spectral armor/spectral walk had no ICD and gave ton of LF while in shroud before they put an ICD on them)

- Siphon effects got allowed to work while in shroud a bit before HoT. (It's now accepted as a matter of fact but Devs used to be hellbent against such sustain)

- Traits for effect while in shroud. (There is more of them and some have significantly buffed: Unholy martyr, unholy sanctuary, signet of suffering, plague sending, vital persistenc/soul battery/sinister shroud, death perception, eternal life... etc.)

- The many little buffs to the shroud skills (even a "rework" of dark path which is no a linked skill)

- I think even had to increase the base LF and add the damage reduction in the early years after 2012.

- Shroud didn't have a skill#5 until the nightmare tower chapter of LS1.

- ... etc.

 

Not saying that there wasn't a few nerf that sting like the damage overflow when leaving shroud due to damage (At release the excess damage was "ignored" which allowed the necromancer to survive a jump from the highest cliffs by tanking the damage with shroud... Sweet memory. Same goe for spectral walk... Still miss this effect...).

Edit: Necro used to be so much worse on all levels than it is now that people can't even imagine it.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[Zero.3871]

3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

- Spectral skills got their LF gain allowed in shroud in 2014 or 2015. (Made for a very interesting week where spectral armor/spectral walk had no ICD and gave ton of LF while in shroud before they put an ICD on them)

- Siphon effects got allowed to work while in shroud a bit before HoT. (It's now accepted as a matter of fact but Devs used to be hellbent against such sustain)

- Traits for effect while in shroud. (There is more of them and some have significantly buffed: Unholy martyr, unholy sanctuary, signet of suffering, plague sending, vital persistenc/soul battery/sinister shroud, death perception, eternal life... etc.)

- The many little buffs to the shroud skills (even a "rework" of dark path which is no a linked skill)

- I think even had to increase the base LF and add the damage reduction in the early years after 2012.

- Shroud didn't have a skill#5 until the nightmare tower chapter of LS1.

- ... etc.

 

Not saying that there wasn't a few nerf that sting like the damage overflow when leaving shroud due to damage (At release the excess damage was "ignored" which allowed the necromancer to survive a jump from the highest cliffs by tanking the damage with shroud... Sweet memory. Same goe for spectral walk... Still miss this effect...).

Edit: Necro used to be so much worse on all levels than it is now that people can't even imagine it.

but what you are talking about is non of shroud base mechanics (for sustain). -50% dmg reduction was always there. life force amoung was always same. cd on shroud always 10 sec base cd. (just mentioning that in past we had option for 7 sec and it got nerfed)....its not like shroud itself got twice the lf it had in 2012 just because amount of dmg was doubled over the years. so calling now for nerfes because of dmg nerfes, after it didnt got buffed after dmg buffs over years, seems odd.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Zero.3871 said:

but what you are talking about is non of shroud base mechanics (for sustain). -50% dmg reduction was always there. life force amoung was always same. cd on shroud always 10 sec base cd. (just mentioning that in past we had option for 7 sec and it got nerfed)....its not like shroud itself got twice the lf it had in 2012 just because amount of dmg was doubled over the years. so calling now for nerfes because of dmg nerfes, after it didnt got buffed after dmg buffs over years, seems odd.

But it is it's base mechanism that allow it to know have siphon and spectral LF gen while it couldn't before. These are buffs to the core mechanic whether you like it or not.

50% wasn't always there, the shroud was dropping immensely faster at release of the game. The option for 7s CD wasn't there at the beginning as well (It was introduced and then removed like many things). Which remind me that they also change the shroud decay rate a few time.

And, no, the damage weren't "doubled" over the years, boons got widespread over the years and players came to lean heavily on them (for example, a thief without might stacks could land 23k backstab on a foe with no vuln to the point that it wasn't surprising to be killed throught a full shroud by a thief that backstabed you, Mesmers and elementalists could 100-0 you in less than 2s. Even the ranger pet could 100-0 someone with the F2 in 2012. I'm well placed to say it I did it, many time, sending my bird on the enemy wall in WvW and 1 shoting the poor guy that thought that he was just out of reach of the aoe. Man, I even made an engineer close to quit the game by bursting it repeatedly with the necromancer's combo: focus#4/dark path/life blast, dark path puting you close to your foes to take advantage of focus#4 rebound and high damage, the chill on dark path making it close to impossible to avoid the life blasts after that... I can even remember this barruch bay warrior that was 2 shotting a soldier gear necromancer with his blasted axe burst and that was with exotic statset and now damage overflow from shroud at this point of the game). Quickness was a 100% attack speed increase instead of the current 50%... etc.

People nowaday have a twisted view of what the game was in 2012. They think the damage was lower when, strictly speaking, it wasn't. They think it was balanced when, in fact, it was a huge mess. Like I said the true difference to the damages between now and then is how trivially easy it is to get boons now (and it's not Harbinger that will change this fact).

Edited October 10, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[MatyrGustav.6210]

to be honest my main is not even necro in pve but i play scourge exclusively now in pvp because necro is op. 

 

Just play it lol

[KrHome.1920]

8 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

- Siphon effects got allowed to work while in shroud a bit before HoT. (It's now accepted as a matter of fact but Devs used to be hellbent against such sustain)

If this was the case then leeching sigil and warhorn5 would actually be good for core and reaper. The only siphon mechanics working in shroud are the two lousy blood magic traits that are useless in anything other than mass trashmob farming in PvE.

Focus4 does also not work in shroud. If you cast it before entering shroud and it connects afterwards, you don't get the heal (as if it wasn't already clunky enough to use).

In fact there is no general rule which effects work in shroud and which don't. ANet decides this individually for each skill and trait and you simply have to memorize this, when learning necro.

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[Dadnir.5038]

16 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

If this was the case then leeching sigil and warhorn5 would actually be good for core and reaper. The only siphon mechanics working in shroud are the two lousy blood magic traits that are useless in anything other than mass trashmob farming in PvE.

Focus4 does also not work in shroud. If you cast it before entering shroud and it connects afterwards, you don't get the heal (as if it wasn't already clunky enough to use).

In fact there is no general rule which effects work in shroud and which don't. ANet decides this individually for each skill and trait and you simply have to memorize this, when learning necro.

 

You realize that I was talking about the vanilla game right? I didn't talk about the garbage skill that focus#4 is now but of the flawed previous focus#4 skill that still had some burst damage potential when played right. Warhorn also used to be good for core... Before it became the garbage it is now...

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

On 10/10/2021 at 11:53 AM, KrHome.1920 said:

If this was the case then leeching sigil and warhorn5 would actually be good for core and reaper. The only siphon mechanics working in shroud are the two lousy blood magic traits that are useless in anything other than mass trashmob farming in PvE.

Focus4 does also not work in shroud. If you cast it before entering shroud and it connects afterwards, you don't get the heal (as if it wasn't already clunky enough to use).

In fact there is no general rule which effects work in shroud and which don't. ANet decides this individually for each skill and trait and you simply have to memorize this, when learning necro.

 

Only siphon effects working through Shroud are as follows:

Vampiric
Vampiric Aura

whirl finishers in Dark fields

Signet of Vampirism (passive only when traited, active always).

Edited October 14, 2021 by Drarnor Kunoram.5180

[KrHome.1920]

Ah yes the signet of course. How could I forget this, because this is basically the only one of the necro healing skills I use for exactly that reason. Vamp signet + the spite signet trait grants better healing than the whole blood magic traitline, which is focused more on support heals unless you are scourge or harbinger (then perma regeneration and transfusion is quite good).

Edited October 14, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[Dadnir.5038]

Let's still point out that from 0 heal while in shroud we now have:

- Vampiric (78 hp/s assuming 2 hit per second - 380 hp/s on 5 targets)

- Vampiric aura (144 hp/s assuming 2 hit per second)

- whirl in dark field (not significative)

- Signet of vampirism (195 hp/s, 390 hp/s if traited and there is 2 foes)

- Unholy sanctuary (384 hp/s with 0 extra vitality, static 2% health pool/s)

- Blighter boons (close to 340 hp/s on RS AA with spite)

Which mean that from 0, now a reaper/spite/BM necro can get 380 + 144 + 390 + 340 = 1254 hp/s while in shroud and with 0 healing power. In cleric gear with some healing runes (the unrealistic setup) at 1800 healing power you can get: 490 + 368 + 470 + 452 = 1780 hp/s if we assume that the player stay 10s in shroud and the conditions are optimales that's 90% of the necromancer's health pool recovered in 10s.

If making 90% health pool recovery while in shroud "OK" from 0 at release isn't a big change to shroud, what is?

 

[Warmachinist.3964]

On 9/24/2021 at 10:01 PM, Asum.4960 said:

Up until recently, at least in PvE, playing Necromancer was grounds for being kicked from groups for "not being a real class". 

The recent shift in perception about the profession, although the Torment changes have done well for Scourge, mostly comes down to influencer sheep herding. 

P".

Bro, I've ben playing this game for over a year, tons and tons of T1-3 fractals, a few raids and lots and lots of meta events. I have never, ever seen a single time where anyone kicked me for playin a necro, much less been in a group that kicked someone for being a necro. I'm gonna call BS on that.

 

Live your own life, play your own game. Who cares if a ton of people play it? Its a well designed class... 

[Asum.4960]

17 minutes ago, Warmachinist.3964 said:

Bro, I've ben playing this game for over a year, tons and tons of T1-3 fractals, a few raids and lots and lots of meta events. I have never, ever seen a single time where anyone kicked me for playin a necro, much less been in a group that kicked someone for being a necro. I'm gonna call BS on that.

 

Live your own life, play your own game. Who cares if a ton of people play it? Its a well designed class... 

And while I don't doubt your personal experience, I've been playing for 9+ years and played literally hundreds to thousands of Dungeons, Fractals (T4/CM's), Raids and Strikes - and Necro was definitely extremely unwanted in those, to at best begrudgingly accepted, for the vast majority of the games's lifetime, something that only slowly changed starting mid to late 2020 with the Reaper buffs and following changes as well as influencer campaigns. 

[Tukaram.8256]

I have played my necro/minion master since release. I have never felt any hate in game for it.  I only read about the necro hate on the forum.  But disgruntled players is what this forum seems to be for.  😎

[Agrippa.1693]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:01 AM, Asum.4960 said:

Up until recently, at least in PvE, playing Necromancer was grounds for being kicked from groups for "not being a real class". 

The recent shift in perception about the profession, although the Torment changes have done well for Scourge, mostly comes down to influencer sheep herding. 

 

There are plenty builds out there on other professions that can outperform any Necro build in about any aspect, some even all of them combined.

 

As for WvW with it's blob fights, Guardians and Necros will always form the core of that gameplay due to stability and corruptions, almost regardless of the actual performance or other capabilities of those professions, as long as they provide primary access to those mechanics. 

 

For PvP, what or how you play doesn't really matter if you want to avoid getting called out or flamed, it's going to happen either way with people lashing out to compensate for their own shortcomings - just have to live and let live. 

 

If you enjoy Necro, play Necro. For the first time in almost a decade it's in a good place in all gamemodes since the last few months, that's ruffling some feathers - doesn't make it "OP".

^This!

I mean, WvW will probably never really change, cause if boon tactics stay META, which it pretty much has been forever now, Necro will always be an important counter! Unless you take the boon-hate completely away from the Necro, the Necro will always be a valuable asset in your squad!

There's obviously also the other way that you could look at this, and that's making boons less important ... but that seems to be a blasphemy view.

 

PvP is interesting, because if you look at it from a time perspective, it might actually be the most balanced gamemode of GW2. Every class had it's time to shine at some stage. So did and does Necro, just like all the other classes.

The biggest issue here imo is really how the Necro is looked at. Now imagine a real-life situation where there's a job opportunity/promotion in which you are highly interested in. And there's 2 more people that are interested in this opportunity: Person A & B.

Now person A is someone who is incredibly motivated to get into this position, has real good credentials/skills/etc. and in general is just really good at doing his/her (upcoming) job, and will give his/her best to improve him/herself in order to get into that new position.

Person B is not that good at his/her (upcoming) job (and knows this), but is really good at bringing you personally in a disadvantage. Person B also wants that job, and will do everything in his/her power to make it virtually impossible for you (and person A) to get that job, so he/she has a far better chance to be the winner in the end.

Now, who would you hate the most???

Spoiler alert: Person B is the Necro (in PvP at least) 🙂

 

In PvE (or at least the endgame) the Necro (and it's specializations) have literally been the worst class that you could pick. And it held this infamous position (absolute bottom of the pack) for 90% of GW2's lifetime (since 2012). Only as of recently, Scourge is actually in a good spot now, mostly because of the torment and Soul Barbs change (May 11, 2021).

So anyone who looks dirty at the Necro in PvE (endgame) should really first get a history lesson!

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Agrippa Oculus.3726

[KrHome.1920]

16 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Let's still point out that from 0 heal while in shroud we now have:

- Vampiric (78 hp/s assuming 2 hit per second - 380 hp/s on 5 targets)

- Vampiric aura (144 hp/s assuming 2 hit per second)

- whirl in dark field (not significative)

- Signet of vampirism (195 hp/s, 390 hp/s if traited and there is 2 foes)

- Unholy sanctuary (384 hp/s with 0 extra vitality, static 2% health pool/s)

- Blighter boons (close to 340 hp/s on RS AA with spite)

Which mean that from 0, now a reaper/spite/BM necro can get 380 + 144 + 390 + 340 = 1254 hp/s while in shroud and with 0 healing power. In cleric gear with some healing runes (the unrealistic setup) at 1800 healing power you can get: 490 + 368 + 470 + 452 = 1780 hp/s if we assume that the player stay 10s in shroud and the conditions are optimales that's 90% of the necromancer's health pool recovered in 10s.

If making 90% health pool recovery while in shroud "OK" from 0 at release isn't a big change to shroud, what is?

 

PvE theorycrafting... Sorry for not answering this in detail as this game mode is trivial.

For the competitive modes you want burst heals and you are rarely hitting more than 2 players at once. So the BM heals are complete trash for core and reaper as their shroud nullifies transfusion and regeneration when you need it the most in your rotation (which means when protected by shroud).

[Dadnir.5038]

3 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

PvE theorycrafting... Sorry for not answering this in detail as this game mode is trivial.

So basically, you think that the slowly dying sPvP and anecdotic small scale fight in WvW are less trivial than the striving PvE and WvW zerg fights? You're more likely to hit 5 players in WvW than not, because statistically a necromancer is more likely to be within a zerg than roaming alone in the wild (and WvW is a competitive mode). Fact is that if you take all those traits and utility you gain infinitely more health while in shroud then you did until GW2 devs agreed to let those siphon heal the necromancer while in shroud.

Being protected by a shroud and gaining up to 1780 hp/s is significative.

[Mell.4873]

Necro is op in fractals but only scourge with all the conditions. Firebrand is the same but that's due to fire. 

I hope they just lower the dps a little since right now they can almost do nothing to get more dps that my keyboard playing style mirage. 

[Zalavaaris.5329]

On 10/14/2021 at 9:55 PM, Tukaram.8256 said:

I have played my necro/minion master since release. I have never felt any hate in game for it.  I only read about the necro hate on the forum.  But disgruntled players is what this forum seems to be for.  😎

You must not have tried to do any high end content with it back in the day. Nobody wanted necros. You can watch old tea times with nemesis where they go into detail on why nobody wants them. It was for sure a thing. 

 

To specify, im not saying they WERE bad, but they were unwanted. Whether that was merited or not. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Dadnir.5038]

12 hours ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

You must not have tried to do any high end content with it back in the day. Nobody wanted necros. You can watch old tea times with nemesis where they go into detail on why nobody wants them. It was for sure a thing.

To specify, im not saying they WERE bad, but they were unwanted. Whether that was merited or not. 

They were bad. If you don't want to say it, I'll say it.

At release, the AI was awful and more often than not the minion were just looking at you getting killed without helping in any way. Minions had their first peak of usefulness between the first version of the gauntlet event and the end of the nightmare tower episode. After that they were back to the garbage can for a few years, until HoT's 2nd raid wing was released and people start to exploit the critters on Matthias and some used PvE build in sPvP (Which made the devs fix thing in 2-3 weeks). The hit wasn't that "big" and as the necromancer needed every little bit of extra damage and LF at this point, a few minions stayed "tolerated" in PvE but not to the point of building specifically around minions. What really revived the minions to their current state is passive farm in PvE and the damage drought in competitive modes.

Someone that used continually minions throught their low probably only played open world (which isn't an issue in itself as the gamemode have more than enough variety to be enjoyed fully, but, at the same time, isn't a gamemode that really challenge your use of the minions... Thought, it must have been hell in the early days due to the very poor AI).

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Oh yeah, I remember those days of minions just standing around while you fight.  Shadow Fiend you could at least force to fight, but the others often just looked at nearby flowers.

[Lethion.8745]

I would also like it to be nerfed but not because of the guilt. I don't want to be chased by 5 people in every single game.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

Oh yeah, I remember those days of minions just standing around while you fight.  Shadow Fiend you could at least force to fight, but the others often just looked at nearby flowers.

It depend, sometime there was the LoS bug... Same for the golem, some times you made it charge and then, after the charge, he would just stop doing anything.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Dadnir.5038

[Asum.4960]

13 hours ago, Lethion.8745 said:

I would also like it to be nerfed but not because of the guilt. I don't want to be chased by 5 people in every single game.

That has always been Necro though. 

 

Why would you not pile onto the one profession that doesn't have focus breaks such as stealth, detargets, blocks, Invulns or overwhelming mobility? 

 

The only difference is that Shroud in the current balance makes up for not having those tools, and that frustrates some players used to Necro's being a free kill greatly.

[jaif.3518]

On 9/24/2021 at 5:30 PM, AppleSauce.4578 said:

Honestly I feel such guilt playing a class that is so complained about for being OP. 

 

For open world/story ... don't worry about it.  Just play.  It's either solo stuff, or you're zerging champions and so on, so who cares how strong you are?

For WvW, the only spec that's really meta would be scourge in groups.  If your mental block is there (and I feel ya), just play reaper or core.  There's nothing OP about either of those in WvW.  You have zilch for mobility compared to other roaming specs, so definitely not OP there, and you can still plop down marks in zergs and be very useful.  Honestly, the limited mobility really forces you to pay attention to positioning more, and that's a good thing, not a crutch.

I won't speak to the other game modes mostly, but I suspect if you read up on PvP you'll find that the complaints are largely around minion master specs, so just avoid that.

 

When I said "I feel ya", I sometimes do the same thing - try to make the underpowered specs work.  I also have major "altitis", which makes me worse because of muscle memory.  I'm personally settling towards necro/engie/war as I play, just because I want to git gud and I need to focus.