Commander icons degenerate WvW gameplay -- better off removed.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

On 9/26/2021 at 12:53 AM, Nerve.9581 said:

Been playing this game on and off for a long time, and had a light bulb moment that's shocking in its simplicity. Commander icons degenerate WvW gameplay immensely. When players don't have Commander icons to follow, WvW feels like the large-scale MMO PvP it's supposed to be.

I just ran around in a game where no realm had a commander online. The encounters were much more organic, with individuals making spacing, pushing, aggression, and defensive decisions with the flow of the battle. People were more spread out, and there were localized encounters happening everywhere around a contested objective. It was exactly as I expected large-scale fantasy MMO PvP to be -- players making snap decisions to work together and push a hole in an enemy's defense or chase a splinter group that was isolated. In fact, there was time to make those decisions and for full fights to play out, with players actually using their abilities.

Commander icons promote gameplay that is explicitly less fun and more frustrating than this. Everyone just follows a marker like lemmings, zerging into degenerate un-fun train-crashes of stacked effects. If you're at the front, you die in milliseconds. Enjoy your run back. If you're at the back, maybe you escape. But it's over in a flash. I cannot for the life of me see why new players want their hand held by a Commander icon only to be led into incomprehensible, garbage encounters like this where they learn nothing.

This is all to say that I just learned how to have fun in GW2 WvW, but whether a commander is present is entirely out of my control. I just have to roll the dice and hope none is online for any side. If I were a PvP designer at Anet, I'd remove them.

And I'd also make a 1-minute tutorial video explaining objectives and how to assault them, accessible anytime from the WvW window, so that nobody needs commanders.

 

you are the prime example of a some acolyth of the cloud blob / chaotic mode, which is super boring for any experienced player. it may be fun for some few months, but in the end you miss out over 80% of what Wvw has to offer, just by beeing blind to it.

 

when there are no tags up, many ppl just feel lost. likely way more than those isolationist players like yourself, i'd guess a 90% ratio, would just run around alone and get ganked by some borded spvp players, quitting the mode soon out of frustration. that'd been also me in my early months honestly. you cannot learn anything by that.

 

people would stack even more, if you have had to trust your next person 100%.

 

bc honestly, it is better usually yet to stay off ballsy new players and let them die within some gankergroup, so they learn to teamwork and reject the rambo-playstyle.

 

so great thing ur not a game designer at anet, bc they make enough mistakes yet, but you'd totally destroy the game mode. u'd screw the basic core of any static squad, of any group of players that often plays with each other and knows the more aggro players, and the slower ones to keep the balance up.

 

people without a commander are just relying on their own knowledge about the game, which is on average rather low. those who followed good leads many times gain more understanding about how it works and can work more effective alone.

 

whenever i watch cloudfights, its purely about numbers. whoever bring 10 more, wins. boring as hell, really. zero strategy, zero real pushes on the smaller side, as the bigger just kills the first 5-8 ppl pushing and the other 15-20 behind u will just flee in panic and the 30-35ish group madly laughing can wipe them (bc they don't understand how to kite, and just flee without pressing many buttons doing so)

 

i'd rather recommend the people to learn how to play. learn how to teamwork instead of freaking complaining that others understand how to do the job. support and dps alone are never as effective as dedicated supports + dps within one party. alone the mitigation of damage and the boon-straying as well as the reactiveness of a healer.

 

  

3 hours ago, Divirel.4953 said:

How about Mentor tag and remove guild tags next to the names, for less intrusion and bias towards guilds.

Commander tag is expensive, where mentor tag is free.

why would u do that? u and every guild player can just un-tag his guild and run anonymous... lol. guess u did not know about that?

also, players represent their guild with a certain pride, at least within the strong fighting guilds. it's a sign of prestige, and the few glasscannon trolls who might try to focus u down often will just fail, unless u're unlucky. in reality, they probably pay for one gank with 20 of their own deaths, so yeah, not a really good way to be annoying ^^

com tag with its 200 or 300gold is still not expensive after all tbh. even us starved wvw people can pay for that... there's rather too many tags for really not experienced players as issue to see, imho.

 

 

Edited October 1, 2021 by kamikharzeeh.8016

[GreatDarkBeast.5049]

lol no.

[Zikory.6871]

You guys are crazy, it would make WvW so much more immersive. We should remove OJs and White swords too. True organically flowing battles. 

Just imagine how amazing PvE would be if it have no tags or event markers! 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Zikory.6871

[Divirel.4953]

On 10/1/2021 at 5:57 PM, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

why would u do that? u and every guild player can just un-tag his guild and run anonymous... lol. guess u did not know about that?

I did. It was to make fun of the post. All in all, you just need to follow a target or a tag, so it doesn't matter how it is designed, correct?

As for guild tag, you can remove it all in settings to just be le dot, client-side of course.

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 9/26/2021 at 3:34 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

1. You have the option not to follow a tag, if the tag is an idiot, don't follow them, ignore them, do your own thing, it's that simple.

Well said, i myself do it, and have my "side fun". the OP should experiment on it.

[Zephyrus.9680]

This is definitely a personal preference thing that should not be made mandatory for everyone. I'm on a server that doesn't run commander tags that often and some tags don't get followed anyway. I like it that way but my opinion was much different 8 years ago when I was new at WvW.  There's absolutely no reason to remove commander tags as a mandatory thing. Squads could still target the squad leader anyway. More importantly, this would discourage newer players and many experienced players would not like it either. 

 

Different classes play differently with and without tags to follow. No tag generally makes ranged classes stronger and melee potentially too weak. It is good they are in the game and good they also aren't mandatory to be successful in fights. This is how it should be. Tags should not be removed, they are already optional. 

[Magnuzone.8395]

On 9/26/2021 at 12:53 AM, Nerve.9581 said:

Commander icons promote gameplay that is explicitly less fun and more frustrating than this.

Less fun for who? For you? You do realize that you don´t speak for the entire wvw community right? Just go roam in EotM in between your pve adventures. 

[Jade.9325]

Commanders are both good and bad from my years in WvW. 

 

The bad: (they become to focused on one thing) You get a tag with 50+ people on it because it attracts some roamers/pugs outside the tag but when you have 2 enemy map queues on the map and maybe 5 roamers trying to recap camps etc...it's rather dumb. This would be different if the tag set aside a group to help etc but in my experience they do not. They rely on the few for recaps/call outs.

 

The good: (organized groups with good comps) You need them for the large zergs. (kind of a give me there)

In the end the big issue I've seen is lack of communication, between roamers and tags.

 

Open tags say get on me and we'll run around doing w/e. (we won't get into people who tag to run solo on maps) >.>

 

Organized tags tend to just do their own thing, communicate with other tags on other maps but the rest of the WvWers are left clueless and wondering if they are every going to get any assistance with a zerg.

 

 

[ElectRic Raikou.8349]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:53 PM, Nerve.9581 said:

Been playing this game on and off for a long time, and had a light bulb moment that's shocking in its simplicity. Commander icons degenerate WvW gameplay immensely. When players don't have Commander icons to follow, WvW feels like the large-scale MMO PvP it's supposed to be.

I just ran around in a game where no realm had a commander online. The encounters were much more organic, with individuals making spacing, pushing, aggression, and defensive decisions with the flow of the battle. People were more spread out, and there were localized encounters happening everywhere around a contested objective. It was exactly as I expected large-scale fantasy MMO PvP to be -- players making snap decisions to work together and push a hole in an enemy's defense or chase a splinter group that was isolated. In fact, there was time to make those decisions and for full fights to play out, with players actually using their abilities.

Commander icons promote gameplay that is explicitly less fun and more frustrating than this. Everyone just follows a marker like lemmings, zerging into degenerate un-fun train-crashes of stacked effects. If you're at the front, you die in milliseconds. Enjoy your run back. If you're at the back, maybe you escape. But it's over in a flash. I cannot for the life of me see why new players want their hand held by a Commander icon only to be led into incomprehensible, garbage encounters like this where they learn nothing.

This is all to say that I just learned how to have fun in GW2 WvW, but whether a commander is present is entirely out of my control. I just have to roll the dice and hope none is online for any side. If I were a PvP designer at Anet, I'd remove them.

And I'd also make a 1-minute tutorial video explaining objectives and how to assault them, accessible anytime from the WvW window, so that nobody needs commanders.

I think you have a fair point but is not pointing towards the right direction.

 

Reading carefully it seems that what you dislike is huge groups. Thats certainly an issue if you encounter 50 enemies and you are in a team of <20. They will go over you just pressing auto attack (hence what you claim as the destruction or classes and fighting system itself). And you are correct about that. It is ugly.

 

But the thing is your 20under group shouldnt fight the huge enemy, there is a feature in squads called shared participation, it is meant for teams to have scouts, you can have an scout and avoid fighting that big group. 

 

Now the next thing is, that although many pugs joining an squad only press random keys, the core of the squad does have science, they practice individual performamce and integration as a whole. The team that is better prepared is the one that wins (of course in similar sized fights). So when you see 50vs50 it is not only autoattack there is a lot going on amd each class and each role has an important participation.

 

I dont think your way of thinking is wrong. But you are misleadimg your own interests. I think you could form a small guild that can work these "special ops" like hitting vulnerable territories while the big groups are fighting. Or that focus on breaching through a hidden spot in the wall, or whatever.

 

In fact i would like to invite you to my wvw guild, where we dont do zergs that move like they are mopping the ground (which is what i think you hate)(i do). We run a 4 line formation with frontline tanks, midline cavalry(dps), backline ranged, and asurrounding line of duelists all in the single squad. We sometimes fight alone and we sometimes join bigger fights hitting from different angles, baiting the enemy, and also coordinating big bombs with the bigger team. Let me know if you want an invite or you want to see some footage.

[ElectRic Raikou.8349]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:53 PM, Nerve.9581 said:

Been playing this game on and off for a long time, and had a light bulb moment that's shocking in its simplicity. Commander icons degenerate WvW gameplay immensely. When players don't have Commander icons to follow, WvW feels like the large-scale MMO PvP it's supposed to be.

I just ran around in a game where no realm had a commander online. The encounters were much more organic, with individuals making spacing, pushing, aggression, and defensive decisions with the flow of the battle. People were more spread out, and there were localized encounters happening everywhere around a contested objective. It was exactly as I expected large-scale fantasy MMO PvP to be -- players making snap decisions to work together and push a hole in an enemy's defense or chase a splinter group that was isolated. In fact, there was time to make those decisions and for full fights to play out, with players actually using their abilities.

Commander icons promote gameplay that is explicitly less fun and more frustrating than this. Everyone just follows a marker like lemmings, zerging into degenerate un-fun train-crashes of stacked effects. If you're at the front, you die in milliseconds. Enjoy your run back. If you're at the back, maybe you escape. But it's over in a flash. I cannot for the life of me see why new players want their hand held by a Commander icon only to be led into incomprehensible, garbage encounters like this where they learn nothing.

This is all to say that I just learned how to have fun in GW2 WvW, but whether a commander is present is entirely out of my control. I just have to roll the dice and hope none is online for any side. If I were a PvP designer at Anet, I'd remove them.

And I'd also make a 1-minute tutorial video explaining objectives and how to assault them, accessible anytime from the WvW window, so that nobody needs commanders.

I think you have a fair point but is not pointing towards the right direction.

 

Reading carefully it seems that what you dislike is huge groups. Thats certainly an issue if you encounter 50 enemies and you are in a team of <20. They will go over you just pressing auto attack (hence what you claim as the destruction or classes and fighting system itself). And you are correct about that. It is ugly.

 

But the thing is your 20under group shouldnt fight the huge enemy, there is a feature in squads called shared participation, it is meant for teams to have scouts, you can have an scout and avoid fighting that big group. 

 

Now the next thing is, that although many pugs joining an squad only press random keys, the core of the squad does have science, they practice individual performamce and integration as a whole. The team that is better prepared is the one that wins (of course in similar sized fights). So when you see 50vs50 it is not only autoattack there is a lot going on amd each class and each role has an important participation.

 

I dont think your way of thinking is wrong. But you are misleadimg your own interests. I think you could form a small guild that can work these "special ops" like hitting vulnerable territories while the big groups are fighting. Or that focus on breaching through a hidden spot in the wall, or whatever.

 

In fact i would like to invite you to my wvw guild, where we dont do zergs that move like they are mopping the ground (which is what i think you hate)(i do). We run a 4 line formation with frontline tanks, midline cavalry(dps), backline ranged, and asurrounding line of duelists all in the single squad. We sometimes fight alone and we sometimes join bigger fights hitting from different angles, baiting the enemy, and also coordinating big bombs with the bigger team. Let me know if you want an invite or you want to see some footage.

[ElectRic Raikou.8349]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:53 PM, Nerve.9581 said:

Been playing this game on and off for a long time, and had a light bulb moment that's shocking in its simplicity. Commander icons degenerate WvW gameplay immensely. When players don't have Commander icons to follow, WvW feels like the large-scale MMO PvP it's supposed to be.

I just ran around in a game where no realm had a commander online. The encounters were much more organic, with individuals making spacing, pushing, aggression, and defensive decisions with the flow of the battle. People were more spread out, and there were localized encounters happening everywhere around a contested objective. It was exactly as I expected large-scale fantasy MMO PvP to be -- players making snap decisions to work together and push a hole in an enemy's defense or chase a splinter group that was isolated. In fact, there was time to make those decisions and for full fights to play out, with players actually using their abilities.

Commander icons promote gameplay that is explicitly less fun and more frustrating than this. Everyone just follows a marker like lemmings, zerging into degenerate un-fun train-crashes of stacked effects. If you're at the front, you die in milliseconds. Enjoy your run back. If you're at the back, maybe you escape. But it's over in a flash. I cannot for the life of me see why new players want their hand held by a Commander icon only to be led into incomprehensible, garbage encounters like this where they learn nothing.

This is all to say that I just learned how to have fun in GW2 WvW, but whether a commander is present is entirely out of my control. I just have to roll the dice and hope none is online for any side. If I were a PvP designer at Anet, I'd remove them.

And I'd also make a 1-minute tutorial video explaining objectives and how to assault them, accessible anytime from the WvW window, so that nobody needs commanders.

I think you have a fair point but is not pointing towards the right direction.

 

Reading carefully it seems that what you dislike is huge groups. Thats certainly an issue if you encounter 50 enemies and you are in a team of <20. They will go over you just pressing auto attack (hence what you claim as the destruction or classes and fighting system itself). And you are correct about that. It is ugly.

 

But the thing is your 20under group shouldnt fight the huge enemy, there is a feature in squads called shared participation, it is meant for teams to have scouts, you can have an scout and avoid fighting that big group. 

 

Now the next thing is, that although many pugs joining an squad only press random keys, the core of the squad does have science, they practice individual performamce and integration as a whole. The team that is better prepared is the one that wins (of course in similar sized fights). So when you see 50vs50 it is not only autoattack there is a lot going on amd each class and each role has an important participation.

 

I dont think your way of thinking is wrong. But you are misleadimg your own interests. I think you could form a small guild that can work these "special ops" like hitting vulnerable territories while the big groups are fighting. Or that focus on breaching through a hidden spot in the wall, or whatever.

 

In fact i would like to invite you to my wvw guild, where we dont do zergs that move like they are mopping the ground (which is what i think you hate)(i do). We run a 4 line formation with frontline tanks, midline cavalry(dps), backline ranged, and asurrounding line of duelists all in the single squad. We sometimes fight alone and we sometimes join bigger fights hitting from different angles, baiting the enemy, and also coordinating big bombs with the bigger team. Let me know if you want an invite or you want to see some footage.

[ElectRic Raikou.8349]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:53 PM, Nerve.9581 said:

Been playing this game on and off for a long time, and had a light bulb moment that's shocking in its simplicity. Commander icons degenerate WvW gameplay immensely. When players don't have Commander icons to follow, WvW feels like the large-scale MMO PvP it's supposed to be.

I just ran around in a game where no realm had a commander online. The encounters were much more organic, with individuals making spacing, pushing, aggression, and defensive decisions with the flow of the battle. People were more spread out, and there were localized encounters happening everywhere around a contested objective. It was exactly as I expected large-scale fantasy MMO PvP to be -- players making snap decisions to work together and push a hole in an enemy's defense or chase a splinter group that was isolated. In fact, there was time to make those decisions and for full fights to play out, with players actually using their abilities.

Commander icons promote gameplay that is explicitly less fun and more frustrating than this. Everyone just follows a marker like lemmings, zerging into degenerate un-fun train-crashes of stacked effects. If you're at the front, you die in milliseconds. Enjoy your run back. If you're at the back, maybe you escape. But it's over in a flash. I cannot for the life of me see why new players want their hand held by a Commander icon only to be led into incomprehensible, garbage encounters like this where they learn nothing.

This is all to say that I just learned how to have fun in GW2 WvW, but whether a commander is present is entirely out of my control. I just have to roll the dice and hope none is online for any side. If I were a PvP designer at Anet, I'd remove them.

And I'd also make a 1-minute tutorial video explaining objectives and how to assault them, accessible anytime from the WvW window, so that nobody needs commanders.

I think you have a fair point but is not pointing towards the right direction.

 

Reading carefully it seems that what you dislike is huge groups. Thats certainly an issue if you encounter 50 enemies and you are in a team of <20. They will go over you just pressing auto attack (hence what you claim as the destruction or classes and fighting system itself). And you are correct about that. It is ugly.

 

But the thing is your 20under group shouldnt fight the huge enemy, there is a feature in squads called shared participation, it is meant for teams to have scouts, you can have an scout and avoid fighting that big group. 

 

Now the next thing is, that although many pugs joining an squad only press random keys, the core of the squad does have science, they practice individual performamce and integration as a whole. The team that is better prepared is the one that wins (of course in similar sized fights). So when you see 50vs50 it is not only autoattack there is a lot going on amd each class and each role has an important participation.

 

I dont think your way of thinking is wrong. But you are misleadimg your own interests. I think you could form a small guild that can work these "special ops" like hitting vulnerable territories while the big groups are fighting. Or that focus on breaching through a hidden spot in the wall, or whatever.

 

In fact i would like to invite you to my wvw guild, where we dont do zergs that move like they are mopping the ground (which is what i think you hate)(i do). We run a 4 line formation with frontline tanks, midline cavalry(dps), backline ranged, and asurrounding line of duelists all in the single squad. We sometimes fight alone and we sometimes join bigger fights hitting from different angles, baiting the enemy, and also coordinating big bombs with the bigger team. Let me know if you want an invite or you want to see some footage.

[ElectRic Raikou.8349]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:53 PM, Nerve.9581 said:

Been playing this game on and off for a long time, and had a light bulb moment that's shocking in its simplicity. Commander icons degenerate WvW gameplay immensely. When players don't have Commander icons to follow, WvW feels like the large-scale MMO PvP it's supposed to be.

I just ran around in a game where no realm had a commander online. The encounters were much more organic, with individuals making spacing, pushing, aggression, and defensive decisions with the flow of the battle. People were more spread out, and there were localized encounters happening everywhere around a contested objective. It was exactly as I expected large-scale fantasy MMO PvP to be -- players making snap decisions to work together and push a hole in an enemy's defense or chase a splinter group that was isolated. In fact, there was time to make those decisions and for full fights to play out, with players actually using their abilities.

Commander icons promote gameplay that is explicitly less fun and more frustrating than this. Everyone just follows a marker like lemmings, zerging into degenerate un-fun train-crashes of stacked effects. If you're at the front, you die in milliseconds. Enjoy your run back. If you're at the back, maybe you escape. But it's over in a flash. I cannot for the life of me see why new players want their hand held by a Commander icon only to be led into incomprehensible, garbage encounters like this where they learn nothing.

This is all to say that I just learned how to have fun in GW2 WvW, but whether a commander is present is entirely out of my control. I just have to roll the dice and hope none is online for any side. If I were a PvP designer at Anet, I'd remove them.

And I'd also make a 1-minute tutorial video explaining objectives and how to assault them, accessible anytime from the WvW window, so that nobody needs commanders.

I think you have a fair point but is not pointing towards the right direction.

 

Reading carefully it seems that what you dislike is huge groups. Thats certainly an issue if you encounter 50 enemies and you are in a team of <20. They will go over you just pressing auto attack (hence what you claim as the destruction or classes and fighting system itself). And you are correct about that. It is ugly.

 

But the thing is your 20under group shouldnt fight the huge enemy, there is a feature in squads called shared participation, it is meant for teams to have scouts, you can have an scout and avoid fighting that big group. 

 

Now the next thing is, that although many pugs joining an squad only press random keys, the core of the squad does have science, they practice individual performamce and integration as a whole. The team that is better prepared is the one that wins (of course in similar sized fights). So when you see 50vs50 it is not only autoattack there is a lot going on amd each class and each role has an important participation.

 

I dont think your way of thinking is wrong. But you are misleadimg your own interests. I think you could form a small guild that can work these "special ops" like hitting vulnerable territories while the big groups are fighting. Or that focus on breaching through a hidden spot in the wall, or whatever.

 

In fact i would like to invite you to my wvw guild, where we dont do zergs that move like they are mopping the ground (which is what i think you hate)(i do). We run a 4 line formation with frontline tanks, midline cavalry(dps), backline ranged, and asurrounding line of duelists all in the single squad. We sometimes fight alone and we sometimes join bigger fights hitting from different angles, baiting the enemy, and also coordinating big bombs with the bigger team. Let me know if you want an invite or you want to see some footage.

[guan.1829]

At the other extreme is to make the commander invincible!

 

 

[Celsith.2753]

On 9/26/2021 at 12:40 AM, God.2708 said:

Why is this the go to strawman of every anarchist fantasy clouder? Just because the tag just has to say 'press 1 and kill that idiot running around by themselves' doesn't mean they can't demonstrate skillful displays of teamwork in unison. Or is the solo violinist somehow always more impressive than the orchestra?
 

 

Probably because every one of us has also played in a squad with a commander. Thinking for yourself in one actively gets you killed.

I'm sure everyone's capable of tuning into some Twitchmander and seeing how it is also.
 

I personally find it a lot more fun when each side has a large group but no formal commander too. I'm not naive enough to think those sitting in discord, complaining about getting ganked when they run back because there's no commander with them telling them to press dodge, are going to enjoy it.

[Gibson.4036]

Last night, prime time NA, I was surprised to find myself in an outnumbered map. (Is this normal for Saturday night 10 eastern?)

I ran around a bit flipping camps, skirting around enemy blobs until someone threw up a commander tag. That coalesced enough of us to actually start taking objectives. We stayed outnumbered for quite a few ticks, maybe a half hour. Got run over by enemy blob a time or two, but actually had a couple of successful sieges.

I can say under these conditions a commander tag made things much more fun.

From a newcomer’s perspective, getting into WvW over the past few weeks and actively reading these forums, many of the “fixes” players propose for WvW have a lot more to do with making it more like how they want to play it, which would undermine how many others currently like to play it. There’s actually quite a variety of approaches you can take and it would be a shame to see that diminished by designing to shoehorn everyone into a particular style of WvW.

Your “degenerate play” may be another’s best game session ever.

Edited October 3, 2021 by Gibson.4036

[Wreckdum.8367]

Very clear OP doesn't understand the basic mechanics of GW2.  In the very first reply they bring up the target cap which is the core source of everyone grouping up to mitigate damage and their response is to quote this direct debunk of their entire post as "Blah blah blah"

 

You're trying to make WvW in to what you want it to be in your head instead of what the actual mechanics are.  You're going to lose that battle 10 times out of 10.  The game is what it is.  Get used to the mechanics or continue to cry a lot.  Pretty much only two options.

[Famine.7915]

They will just use target markers.

[JTGuevara.9018]

On 9/25/2021 at 6:53 PM, Nerve.9581 said:

Been playing this game on and off for a long time, and had a light bulb moment that's shocking in its simplicity. Commander icons degenerate WvW gameplay immensely. When players don't have Commander icons to follow, WvW feels like the large-scale MMO PvP it's supposed to be.

I just ran around in a game where no realm had a commander online. The encounters were much more organic, with individuals making spacing, pushing, aggression, and defensive decisions with the flow of the battle. People were more spread out, and there were localized encounters happening everywhere around a contested objective. It was exactly as I expected large-scale fantasy MMO PvP to be -- players making snap decisions to work together and push a hole in an enemy's defense or chase a splinter group that was isolated. In fact, there was time to make those decisions and for full fights to play out, with players actually using their abilities.

Commander icons promote gameplay that is explicitly less fun and more frustrating than this. Everyone just follows a marker like lemmings, zerging into degenerate un-fun train-crashes of stacked effects. If you're at the front, you die in milliseconds. Enjoy your run back. If you're at the back, maybe you escape. But it's over in a flash. I cannot for the life of me see why new players want their hand held by a Commander icon only to be led into incomprehensible, garbage encounters like this where they learn nothing.

This is all to say that I just learned how to have fun in GW2 WvW, but whether a commander is present is entirely out of my control. I just have to roll the dice and hope none is online for any side. If I were a PvP designer at Anet, I'd remove them.

And I'd also make a 1-minute tutorial video explaining objectives and how to assault them, accessible anytime from the WvW window, so that nobody needs commanders.

 

I'm going up to be upfront about this: This is a radical idea and I personally would not mind! After all, it's JUST an icon.

However, in people with more hierarchical mindsets, there will always be leaders and followers. The presence or absence of a commander tag simply will not affect that mindset. However, there are other problems outside the tag itself that exacerbate it even further. For example, the biggest most critical problem is the lack of an anti-zerg mechanic. This lack of an in-game counter to zergs basically encourages and incentivizes people to ball up into this massive perma-boon blob that simply cannot get taken down. People tend to go to the path of least resistance. (Hey! It's just bags right?..) Such an environment essentially encourages and incentivizes commanders to show up since this leads to basically an arms race of opposing zergs. Class balance is another, FB, scourge, spellbreaker, scrapper are big problems and the engines that power those zergs. It is the prevelance of perma-boon zergs that has driven people from this game.

A suggestion for anti-zerg mechanics would be

           1) Increase the AoE cap: I used to be against this, but I now realize that it's needed. An AoE cap will more easily disperse zergs since they are stacked together.

           2) Introduce a 'plague' mechanic: This could be a debuff to zergs to at the very least introduce a personal cost and disincentivize merely outnumbering opponents. A numerical cap for this debuff would have to be introduced, of course.

An alternate suggestion I would offer is to repurpose the commander tag to be used more strategically. For example: only usable inside a tower or keep. In that way, it brings uncertainty to the combat since you can't always see or anticipate enemy attacks from inside a structure. This essentially forces the commander to think more strategically, carefully weigh decisions and more importantly rely on roamers and scouts. They will essentially be the eyes and ears of the tag on the outside. You can even repurpose the tower and keeps to have a "war room" where plans are coordinated. To be honest, coordination this way is already loosely done via map and team chats as well as tactivators but the restriction of the tag to be usable only in structures cements that coordination in stone. 

But yes, I am you on the large-scale push-pull aspect of open-world pvp or as it said, "cloud". THAT is when it is at its best. It still happens to an extent, even certain servers are infamous for it (Magumma), although not like the early days.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

i think instead of removing tags it would make sense to create situations where its better to split up, but thats another game.

[Xenesis.6389]

Speaking of commanders, heard a conversation the other night between two commanders about how bad pugs are, how it's impossible to get them into discord, how they won't stop rallying, how they run bad pve builds, and if only they would join squads and let commanders teach them, and find the proper meta builds everything would be so much better. To a degree that is true, especially for players who really need all the help they can get to function in combat.... But I wondered do they also think about this for other commanders who are not exactly good players either? Because it certainly isn't only pugs that need to "git gud".

There's been plenty of examples of terrible commanders who barely move in combat (positioning is the number one thing to think about in wvw), pocket themselves in corners with no option but to get bombed on like a lords room, sit in red circles for more than 10s and expect everyone to survive, who make half pushes because they don't have the killer instinct to know when they should fully push and run the enemy over.

 

Or do straight walk backs, not full turn repositions, who don't make use of superspeed to reposition, which end up with their tail getting eaten because the enemy is still running full force "straight" onto them (if you're getting train tracked by your enemy ask yourself why and adjust). Even to this day I still see commanders getting their group stuck in the middle of 3 ways, don't ever get your group in the "middle" of a three way, always be on the outside. Ever wonder why the good groups are running trains over other groups? because they know when/how to full push and run right over the bombs, not sit in them.

 

In the end it's always the same song though, it was the pugs fault because not enough of them were around to eat the damage or they rallied the two guys that were downed on that bomb. Any player with a brain (not all pugs are idiotic players without a clue, some are actual wvw experienced players running meta builds too) could look at those guilds and their commanders in action and after one fight write them off as not worthy following around.

 

They could still end up as roadkill because adding more numbers doesn't suddenly change the commanders own movements. In fact it may even make it worse and even make them lazy, boon balling has already contributed heavily to this factor, where commanders all follow what they saw worked for one guild, they think it will work for them. It's hilarious when you see a 20 man guild decide to stealth right in front of the enemy, push in and get flattened by a 40 man blob bomb because for some reason they thought their boon ball would save them long enough to instantly bomb those 40 players. But guys we could have had that if it wasn't for the one pug and his mini out that totally gave away the push! Sure.

 

If pug players see that commander is unable to protect their 20 man group properly, what would make them trust they could when they get to 30 or 40 players on them? Oh right, "boon ball", let's just say that even that is not able to carry some of the dumb commanders in the game today because of constant terrible positioning. Ever wonder why you see these groups with 10-20 people and never growing in size despite advertising every night? Probably because pugs have seen them in action and probably don't want to be part of the meatgrinder. You can even see the difference a commander makes, when a guild running 3 different commanders with the same group are unable to function with the same success as the main commander.

 

If commanders want players on them on call, they too also need to play better and give confidence to their fellow players through their actions in combat. Not be a kitten and tell players to get on you but then still get fully one pushed the next fight. If you can't even be up long enough for your dps to lay a bomb down, or can't be bothered to move out of red why would a pug bother to join or help you? They would probably be better off running around not following a tag of doom.

 

P.S So sick of these so called "fite" guilds running around with 40 people and think they're hot stuff and so good but they always look to go back down to the lowest tiers to "farm" and avoid the other big "fite" guilds even in those tiers, all they want to do now is farm a bag like a pve ktrainer, one would hope the alliance system will help fix that but I don't know at this point.

 

P.P.S Nice dragonhunter bomb group you running lately mag, leave it up to you guys to run the cheapest stuff.

[cyberzombie.7348]

On 9/25/2021 at 3:53 PM, Nerve.9581 said:

If you're at the front, you die in milliseconds.

Unless the squad is organized with healers and even without them, you can be sharp enough to maneuver around pushes.

[Dawdler.8521]

4 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Speaking of commanders, heard a conversation the other night between two commanders about how bad pugs are, how it's impossible to get them into discord, how they won't stop rallying, how they run bad pve builds, and if only they would join squads and let commanders teach them, and find the proper meta builds everything would be so much better. To a degree that is true, especially for players who really need all the help they can get to function in combat.... But I wondered do they also think about this for other commanders who are not exactly good players either? Because it certainly isn't only pugs that need to "git gud".

Dont you know the personal mantra of WvWers?

My build is perfect I got skills it's everyone else thats bad and carried by builds. 

[Bristingr.5034]

On 9/25/2021 at 4:16 PM, Nerve.9581 said:

Getting on voice, finding a specific player to target over and over again, and even relocating them on a map for death runs is significantly more difficult without icons than just finding a contested zone where people are fighting and going to help. The second behavior is exactly what I saw. I'm reticent to continue debating someone who believes so strongly that people will always choose the most inconvenient method possible.

Huh, last I checked, there are zergs that just farm inside enemy Garris all day long when there's not an organized group. The latest time was BG's Rawr guild just farming bags inside TC's garri, where there's 40+ TC folks, but all the clouding in the world won't help them there because of the BG group's rotations of heals, buffs, etc.

Every war in history has had some sort of commander/leader. Even for those doing guerilla fighting. WvWvW is no exception.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Bristingr.5034

[ArchonWing.9480]

On 9/25/2021 at 3:53 PM, Nerve.9581 said:

If you're at the front, you die in milliseconds. Enjoy your run back.

I really  don't get how people die in milliseconds in zerg fights. You guys like wearing green armor or something? Actually even if you were....

Thanks to Amazon Prime I got an alt, and got bored so I went into WvW EBG at level 50 with greens, blues  and some yellow weapons. It's actually pretty cool because you get Tomes of Knowledge per rank up and reward chests give them too. I died like twice this whole time and no it wasn't because my server was facerolling-- it was quite the opposite and we were getting spawn camped by t1 servers. I mean, I died more in pve trying to solo the Mad King. 🙃

Granted uplevels actually do get pretty good stats when upleveled but still....

https://i.imgur.com/sZPQUe3.png

So I really recommend getting your character to level 80 first before trying WvW.

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480