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Personal toughts on traitlines and their problems: Necromancer edition.


Frostinzo.3269

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Necro is different from the others: i think the goal of necro it's use every time the soul reaping, the elite spec and one single vanilla traitline.

Spite: power trailine, + soul reaping and reaper for the elite spec Pdps.

Blood magic: support traitline, to be added at soul reaping and scourge.

-“Ritual of life” should be focused on all wells.

Curses: condi dps, + soul reaping and harbringer.

-“Chilling darkness” probably need to be a condi dps trait.

-The ability to share quickness for the harbringer is scary, better not give him it perma.

Death: tank traitline, based on minions. I suppose his elite spec will use hammer and summon phantoms like mesmer. The "gravedigger"?

Soul reaping is a very flexible traitline, i think his elite spec may be the "nightmare", with the double swords as the community asks. As the "flex" spec i think it must based based on something very close to the necro, like fear.

Overall necro is in a good spot, it’s all only on the numbers balance.

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As a game designer you have to ensure that certain traits are impossible to combine, because the synergy would be too strong. So you don't want to have too much flexibility in your traitlines.

For power you have damage in spite, crit chance in curses, sustain in blood, inferior sustain in death and a bit of all in soul reaping.

For condi it's the same exept your damage is in curses and you can ignore spite.

A mandatory soul reaping is not the "goal", but its a result of bad balancing by anet:

First a necro with a base life force pool is trash (the sPvP folks will tell you a different story, but what can you expect from people that have no clue about general necro mechanics outside of one problematic fotm build) and second it contains a bunch of mandatory traits for any viable necro build.

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54 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

As a game designer you have to ensure that certain traits are impossible to combine, because the synergy would be too strong. So you don't want to have too much flexibility in your traitlines.

For power you have damage in spite, crit chance in curses, sustain in blood, inferior sustain in death and a bit of all in soul reaping.

For condi it's the same exept your damage is in curses and you can ignore spite.

A mandatory soul reaping is not the "goal", but its a result of bad balancing by anet:

First a necro with a base life force pool is trash (the sPvP folks will tell you a different story, but what can you expect from people that have no clue about general necro mechanics outside of one problematic fotm build) and second it contains a bunch of mandatory traits for any viable necro build.

wow you are way off. with corruptors fervor in death and blood bank combo in blood you are almost god. you hardly lose hp because you are gaining so much barrier and almost permanent protection. in fact i was  easily soloing  champion's and soloing dungeon paths. tomorrow i am going to try soloing some fractals. has long has you and your minions are attacking its one of the strongest and best  tanks in any mmo i have played. dont believe me test it here is my build http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PSwEE6MssAGDbiVxGxTZqrZC-zxQY1gPJ1sTJGRQmChclAloA85A-e

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8 hours ago, trunks.5249 said:

i was  easily soloing  champion's and soloing dungeon paths.

Let's be honest, even in the vanilla game players were already "easily soloing champions and dungeon path". Elementalists heald all records of solo dungeon path speed clear (and they can still do it). Warriors were close second and no change they've seen over the years made them any weaker for solo clear purpose (if anything they've got better tools)... etc. Youtube is already full of video where players "easily solo dungeon/fractal/champion" with probably any GW2 profession (And if there are some professions that aren't list it probably mean that nobody care enough to upload a video instead of it being to difficult to be done).

 

On topic:

The open goal of the traitline system is "build diversity", not a stremlined elite spec/SR/core traitline. There is plenty of synergy between every traitlines, Any lack of perceived synergy is mainly due to the players always looking for extreme optimisation. For example you can very well use spite with curse in a condi build, spite minors aren't a bad match, bitter chill is a nice addition to a cReaper, signet of suffering is brod enough to always be usefull and Dread make you apply your condition faster. Same goes for power: All curse minor are a god send of crit chance (stronger for every different condition on your target), chilling darkness feed bitter chill, plague sending feed your crit chance, path of corruption is a good pick for every build, and lingering curse is a good defensive option.

Soul reaping is seen as a main pick mainly because it got grandmaster traits that have been raised to be ridiculously strong in order to make the necromancer a semi-decent pick in PvE end game. It took the devs 7 years to raise the necromancer dps from bottom tier to average (and when I say bottom tier, I mean that at HoT release a necro was doing 2/3 of the average damage of the other professions with 0 utility/support to compensate).

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4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Let's be honest, even in the vanilla game players were already "easily soloing champions and dungeon path". Elementalists heald all records of solo dungeon path speed clear (and they can still do it). Warriors were close second and no change they've seen over the years made them any weaker for solo clear purpose (if anything they've got better tools)... etc. Youtube is already full of video where players "easily solo dungeon/fractal/champion" with probably any GW2 profession (And if there are some professions that aren't list it probably mean that nobody care enough to upload a video instead of it being to difficult to be done).

 

On topic:

The open goal of the traitline system is "build diversity", not a stremlined elite spec/SR/core traitline. There is plenty of synergy between every traitlines, Any lack of perceived synergy is mainly due to the players always looking for extreme optimisation. For example you can very well use spite with curse in a condi build, spite minors aren't a bad match, bitter chill is a nice addition to a cReaper, signet of suffering is brod enough to always be usefull and Dread make you apply your condition faster. Same goes for power: All curse minor are a god send of crit chance (stronger for every different condition on your target), chilling darkness feed bitter chill, plague sending feed your crit chance, path of corruption is a good pick for every build, and lingering curse is a good defensive option.

Soul reaping is seen as a main pick mainly because it got grandmaster traits that have been raised to be ridiculously strong in order to make the necromancer a semi-decent pick in PvE end game. It took the devs 7 years to raise the necromancer dps from bottom tier to average (and when I say bottom tier, I mean that at HoT release a necro was doing 2/3 of the average damage of the other professions with 0 utility/support to compensate).

never said other classes couldn't do it my point to that person when they said  inferior sustain is just not true.

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13 minutes ago, trunks.5249 said:

never said other classes couldn't do it my point to that person when they said  inferior sustain is just not true.

It depend of the perspective, right now players value a lot health points because of the PvP part of the game but technically hit points are inferior as a sustain mean to damage avoidance that other profession have in bulk (a single block can stop an unlimited amount of damage while tanking with health point is bound to be limited by the volume of the health pool). And it's especially true in PvE where mobs with a breakbar can use single hits that hurt a lot.

Nowadays opinion on the profession is unhealthily influenced by the sPvP players opinion. sPvP players that themeselvs begged to have the TTK increased in competitive mode and then regretted it bitterly.

 

Just looking at the build you've post and it's a pure tank build using actively the "defensive" traitline. Keep in mind that other professions complaining about their own survivability would often prefer to be cursed down to the 5th generation rather than using their own "defensive" traitlines in the same way (even your gear is all the way on the tanky side).

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Spite

This line is mostly good honestly almost all parts of it have use in some game mode or another (be it practical or just for fun) most of the traits are solid and work. There are a few however that do not. Such as "Spiteful Renewal" which effectively does nothing and is never used in any game mode no matter what build you would take. ITs the main issue of the whole line is that this one trait just has 0 use and 0 value even more so than  post nerfed "Chill of Death"

 

Curses 

Again this line is mostly useful in some way or another and most of the traits have some use here or there in some game mode or another the biggest problem traits in this line probably boil down to "Insidious Disruption" As its effectively way too weak in comparison the other two adept options. 

 

Death Magic

This one has to be the real problem of necromancer and its entirety it is currently also responsible for what makes minion masters a pain in peoples sides in pvp. Anet has failed to nerf the correct trait over several months now and by the time they get around to it minions will really have 0 use of any kind. "Necromantic Corruption" Could honestly use a healthy nerf to finally end the minion master problem on the pvp side of things.  This trait alone single handedly makes minion master builds effectively work and nerfing every other aspect of their builds is not very effect. 

Additional problems in deathmagic are linked to the fact that many of the minors and in some cases active traits don't do anything until someone or something dies around you meaning it provides no benefit in a fight up until that point. Traits like these almost never feel good to use and should probably be reworked. ITs fine to have a "ON DEATH" passive component to something but it cannot be the only component 

 

BloodMagic

This one is usually up and down honestly it currently acts as a utility support line for necromancer which is ok. However I still think removing the well trait for a barrier trait that mainly only works well with scourge was a horrible idea. "Blood bank" will never be well used with any elite other than scourge and thus it should be a scourge trait not a general necromancer trait. ITs effectively unusable for the most part in any endgame content, pvp or wvw content where scourge is not the one taking advantage of it. 

Additionally the life steal effects in the necro line are a bit weak in comparison things being developed now its not the worst thing ever but something certainly worth noting. 

 

Soul Reaping

Ideally this traitline is pretty decent not really much needs to change here its the personal mechanic utility and self enhancing trailine and it does its job well with those things.

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1 hour ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Spite

This line is mostly good honestly almost all parts of it have use in some game mode or another (be it practical or just for fun) most of the traits are solid and work. There are a few however that do not. Such as "Spiteful Renewal" which effectively does nothing and is never used in any game mode no matter what build you would take. ITs the main issue of the whole line is that this one trait just has 0 use and 0 value even more so than  post nerfed "Chill of Death"

 

Curses 

Again this line is mostly useful in some way or another and most of the traits have some use here or there in some game mode or another the biggest problem traits in this line probably boil down to "Insidious Disruption" As its effectively way too weak in comparison the other two adept options. 

 

Death Magic

This one has to be the real problem of necromancer and its entirety it is currently also responsible for what makes minion masters a pain in peoples sides in pvp. Anet has failed to nerf the correct trait over several months now and by the time they get around to it minions will really have 0 use of any kind. "Necromantic Corruption" Could honestly use a healthy nerf to finally end the minion master problem on the pvp side of things.  This trait alone single handedly makes minion master builds effectively work and nerfing every other aspect of their builds is not very effect. 

Additional problems in deathmagic are linked to the fact that many of the minors and in some cases active traits don't do anything until someone or something dies around you meaning it provides no benefit in a fight up until that point. Traits like these almost never feel good to use and should probably be reworked. ITs fine to have a "ON DEATH" passive component to something but it cannot be the only component 

 

BloodMagic

This one is usually up and down honestly it currently acts as a utility support line for necromancer which is ok. However I still think removing the well trait for a barrier trait that mainly only works well with scourge was a horrible idea. "Blood bank" will never be well used with any elite other than scourge and thus it should be a scourge trait not a general necromancer trait. ITs effectively unusable for the most part in any endgame content, pvp or wvw content where scourge is not the one taking advantage of it. 

Additionally the life steal effects in the necro line are a bit weak in comparison things being developed now its not the worst thing ever but something certainly worth noting. 

 

Soul Reaping

Ideally this traitline is pretty decent not really much needs to change here its the personal mechanic utility and self enhancing trailine and it does its job well with those things.

i am a reaper tank and i have to disagree with you on blood magic in pve barrier works fantastic for the most part has long has me any my minions are fighting  i hardly get to my normal hp pool and when i do it goes back up fast blood bank plus corruptors fervor is a great combo.

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Of all the professions I've played i think necro has hands down the best traitline balance.
All of core traitlines offer use for all types of builds. Making for amazing build variety and great depth.

That being said not all is perfect and I can name some outliers and their possible fixes:

  • Soul reaping hogging too much life force generation - other lines should get some, SR lose some.
     
  • Lingering curses trait does what it should not - fixing a bad weapon, forcing condi necros to pick it.
    Just make the scepter boosts baseline for the scepter itself. Have the trait just give bonus condi damage (regardless of any weapon choices you made) and some expertise on top - be it flatline or a form of conversion from other attribute value.
    From there just adjust both values to be grandmaster worthy but not gamebreaking and we got some good balance there.
     
  • Death Magic suffers from uneven carapace stacking options. We got one trait to rule them all  - Corrupter's fervor killing build diversity. Meanwhile adept traits that should be the only place to define stacking method are not only underperfoming in this role, but also pretty uneven. Putrid defense + CPC at least has a chance of capping carapace stacks . while flesh of the master users are unlikely to ever see cap stacks not to mention how grossly situational shrouded removal is compared to both.
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