With Bladesworn, what was the point of the Banner change to lightfields?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

4 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Didn't even bother to watch the full stream. 

 

The moment they said they want to make an experience for returning players and that they may not remember how to play it was red flag to me. I'm already of the mindset that EoD is not worth it for me, and listening to them talk about a huge starter zone in an expansion rly made me raise an eyebrow.. Why is that an issue rn? Verdant brink is an amazing and challenging map. Exactly what I want as a non-hardcore raid/strike mission pver. And they put mini JPs and shield stance mechanics or whatever in an expac??? 

 

DUDE YOU GET THE FREE BASE GAME ANYWAY, learn that stuff in Queens Dale before using your precious little max boost. 

 

Yes we haven't seen the majority of the content, but if like it's 4 maps (I heard someone say it's 4 maps only?) and 1 of them is half dedicated to cash-grab the newbies who want Cantha and don't remember how to play, then no my friend. Smells cash-grab. 

 

And if what you say is true, to not digress, LMAO! 

I honestly think they are using Shing Jea as a happy bubble gum zone to juxtapose whatever comes after it. They're luring in new people with the friendly happy zone, only for them to get a rough lesson in hardship and horror after that. At least I hope that is the case.

[Fueki.4753]

6 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

The moment they said they want to make an experience for returning players and that they may not remember how to play it was red flag to me. I'm already of the mindset that EoD is not worth it for me, and listening to them talk about a huge starter zone in an expansion rly made me raise an eyebrow.. Why is that an issue rn? Verdant brink is an amazing and challenging map. Exactly what I want as a non-hardcore raid/strike mission pver. And they put mini JPs and shield stance mechanics or whatever in an expac???

Yes we haven't seen the majority of the content, but if like it's 4 maps (I heard someone say it's 4 maps only?) and 1 of them is half dedicated to cash-grab the newbies who want Cantha and don't remember how to play, then no my friend. Smells cash-grab.

While it's thematically fitting for Shing Jea, I don't like an expansion map being yet another training course.

I hope it's more than just four maps.

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I honestly think they are using Shing Jea as a happy bubble gum zone to juxtapose whatever comes after it. They're luring in new people with the friendly happy zone, only for them to get a rough lesson in hardship and horror after that. At least I hope that is the case.

They could do so without giving the players another training course though. They could have had the players help the monastery trainee NPCs with their training or their mentors prepare said training by doing the usual mundane stuff.

Feeling the need to re-explain game mechanics feels just bad.

If people didn't use them outside of Hearts in Core, HoT or PoF, they won't use them outside of Hearts in EoD either.

I think copying FF14's training hall as a small corner of the monastery would be a far superior way to handle the reminder of mechanics.

Edited October 9, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Vancho.8750]

4 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

While it's thematically fitting for Shing Jea, I don't like an expansion map being yet another training course.

I hope it's more than just four maps.

They could do so without giving the players another training course though. They could have had the players help the monastery trainee NPCs with their training or their mentors prepare said training by doing the usual mundane stuff.

Feeling the need to re-explain game mechanics feels just bad.

If people didn't use them outside of Hearts in Core, HoT or PoF, they won't use them outside of Hearts in EoD either.

I think copying FF14's training hall as a small corner of the monastery would be a far superior way to handle the reminder of mechanics.

They could have reworked the starting missions as tutorial instead of 1 1 1 simulator or added in new mission on level 5 for example that boosts you to level 80 with full tutorial on everything call it a vision of the future going full anime. I think allot of games did that and gave everyone a taste of max level character and then returned them to level 1 and said go reach that would have made the game better. 

The whole problem with the new player experience is that it doesn't force you to learn the game gradually.  

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Whose to say. Maybe it will be a new starting area?

[Doomfrost.5728]

They could have given each banner a different combo field rather than just one type.  Defense: Ice, Tactics: Water, Discipline: Lightning, Strength: Fire, Battle Standard: Light. At least then it would add /some/ variety. 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

12 minutes ago, Doomfrost.5728 said:

They could have given each banner a different combo field rather than just one type.  Defense: Ice, Tactics: Water, Discipline: Lightning, Strength: Fire, Battle Standard: Light. At least then it would add /some/ variety. 

You just put more thought into Warrior then Anet did in the last 2 years. 

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

3 hours ago, Doomfrost.5728 said:

They could have given each banner a different combo field rather than just one type.  Defense: Ice, Tactics: Water, Discipline: Lightning, Strength: Fire, Battle Standard: Light. At least then it would add /some/ variety. 

That's what I suggested after they added the combo fields was giving each one different fields, I've also seen someone suggest planting the banner gives a flip over button that let's you trigger the fields off of a CD. Could also be nice if they moved tactics banner to be a heal skill with a heal added onto it since we have no heal banner and I don't see it being used ever in it's current location.

[Smoosh.2718]

 

1 hour ago, Red Haired Savage.5430 said:

That's what I suggested after they added the combo fields was giving each one different fields, I've also seen someone suggest planting the banner gives a flip over button that let's you trigger the fields off of a CD. Could also be nice if they moved tactics banner to be a heal skill with a heal added onto it since we have no heal banner and I don't see it being used ever in it's current location.

Stop these posts are getting close to :nut: worthy status. Different Fields for each banner that can be triggered again with a 2nd press of the button. This would change the whole feel of banners, making them active, defensive and offensive tools, rather than this passive stick that binds you with a ball and chain to pick up and call master.

Now... why wasnt this change made to banners when they were changed in the first place? This would then make banners like Tactics and Defense lose their myth status in their existance.

[oscuro.9720]

Why aren’t banners things you put on your back and run around with, giving some sort of effect, then flip over to create a field effect? Kinda like flint facets. I never understood the whole “put a thing on the floor and dance around it” play style.

[Grand Marshal.4098]

2 hours ago, oscuro.9720 said:

Why aren’t banners things you put on your back and run around with, giving some sort of effect, then flip over to create a field effect? Kinda like flint facets. I never understood the whole “put a thing on the floor and dance around it” play style.

Neither did anet

 

Instead they see no reason to alter it cause Raid bosses are kind enough to be in areas big enough that the banners can function OK and they prefer not to dodge and move while fighting. Unlike actual players. 

 

People want strike missions and raids, so eh it's OK Banners very useful. 

[Doomfrost.5728]

I would probably go further with my idea and remove the stat boosts entirely from banners and instead make them pulse combo fields periodically. A warrior actually controlling the terrain they fight on. Rather than rely on a small radius stat stick instead they use their mobility and combo finishers to determine when they need a particular buff or not. Plus combo fields are highly more versatile in what combo finishers you want to use. Would be interesting to see warriors darting through banners gaining whatever they need whenever they need it to gain the upper hand in a fight.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Doomfrost.5728

[Grand Marshal.4098]

6 minutes ago, Doomfrost.5728 said:

I would probably go further with my idea and remove the stat boosts entirely from banners and instead make them pulse combo fields periodically. A warrior actually controlling the terrain they fight on. Rather than rely on a small radius stat stick instead they use their mobility and combo finishers to determine when they need a particular buff or not. Plus combo fields are highly more versatile in what combo finishers you want to use. Would be interesting to see warriors darting through banners gaining whatever they need whenever they need it to gain the upper hand in a fight.

In such an instance, a finisher based trait under the return of Powerful Synergy would be nice. Blast finishers are improved (more cleanse on light blast, more might of fire blast, etc), auras last longer on self and allies (50% more than normal?) and effects like vulnerability/daze from hits/whirls have increased duration (longer term vuln, burning, daze etc). 

 

Where would I want to see this trait? Well if Banners moved on Tactics and Shouts on discipline, or if neither happened, I'd actually put this trait in arms. Weapons determine the effect you get from combos. What a better spot to have them. An all round means of improving any build based on fields and finishers. This would also give arms a reliable 'defensive' trait in place of any other trait frankly, maybe Dual Wielding. 

 

Light, Frost, fire auras see the most use on Warr. And it would go a long nice way to not have us rely on boons too much for defense. As corrupts and boonrip can rly make us vulnerable. Might corrupts especially. 

[Fueki.4753]

7 hours ago, Doomfrost.5728 said:

I would probably go further with my idea and remove the stat boosts entirely from banners and instead make them pulse combo fields periodically. A warrior actually controlling the terrain they fight on. Rather than rely on a small radius stat stick instead they use their mobility and combo finishers to determine when they need a particular buff or not. Plus combo fields are highly more versatile in what combo finishers you want to use. Would be interesting to see warriors darting through banners gaining whatever they need whenever they need it to gain the upper hand in a fight.

I think that such a change would most likely kick Warriors out of the PvE meta entirely.

Currently, the stats provided by the banners are all what keeps them in.

Pulsing combo fields likely wouldn't be enough to keep them in the meta, given how easily fields can be invalidated by putting other one on top.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Infusion.7149]

Even beyond that , warrior was never a combo field or high complexity class as far as PVE. In WVW the most use of combos warriors had was when they blasted water fields in core days using hammer.
If they want to simplify banners the best way to go about that is to make it an option where banners apply the buffs of other classes but to 10 people when traited:

• Pinpoint Distribution (100 condition damage)
• Spotter (100 precision)
• Assassin's Presence (150 ferocity) , then increase Empower Allies to +150 power or something like that
• Strength in Numbers (100 toughness)

Banner of Tactics could be a flat boon duration increase of 100 concentration as it is now. In this fashion warrior would serve as role compression.

They could also add back the skills that were removed when the banners were no longer bundles as flip skills for when the banner is active and you didn't pick it up. The likely issue with that is you don't see the banner cooldown anymore and it puts more server load since you would need to constantly check the status of your banner buff.
* Banner of Discipline had fury application (Furious Rally)
* Banner of Strength had an attack with vulnerability application (Brutal Banner)
* Banner of Defense had knockback (Staggering Banner)
* Banner of Tactics had a party heal  (Compassionate Banner)
* Battle Standard had party stability (Whirlwind Banner) --- this alone would make it far more attractive in PVE because it is 180s cooldown right now for the banner itself

Without banners the main draw for picking warrior is consistency (it isn't too much to ask of people to spam F1) and CC on power variants. The reason why warrior is incredibly optional on condition fights is both those reasons are gone ; especially on Twin Largos you won't have that much consistency since the target moves around.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Even beyond that , warrior was never a combo field or high complexity class as far as PVE. In WVW the most use of combos warriors had was when they blasted water fields in core days using hammer.
If they want to simplify banners the best way to go about that is to make it an option where banners apply the buffs of other classes but to 10 people when traited:

• Pinpoint Distribution (100 condition damage)
• Spotter (100 precision)
• Assassin's Presence (150 ferocity) , then increase Empower Allies to +150 power or something like that
• Strength in Numbers (100 toughness)

Banner of Tactics could be a flat boon duration increase of 100 concentration as it is now. In this fashion warrior would serve as role compression.

They could also add back the skills that were removed when the banners were no longer bundles as flip skills for when the banner is active and you didn't pick it up. The likely issue with that is you don't see the banner cooldown anymore and it puts more server load since you would need to constantly check the status of your banner buff.
* Banner of Discipline had fury application (Furious Rally)
* Banner of Strength had an attack with vulnerability application (Brutal Banner)
* Banner of Defense had knockback (Staggering Banner)
* Banner of Tactics had a party heal  (Compassionate Banner)
* Battle Standard had party stability (Whirlwind Banner) --- this alone would make it far more attractive in PVE because it is 180s cooldown right now for the banner itself

Without banners the main draw for picking warrior is consistency (it isn't too much to ask of people to spam F1) and CC on power variants. The reason why warrior is incredibly optional on condition fights is both those reasons are gone ; especially on Twin Largos you won't have that much consistency since the target moves around.

I had a few things to say about banners and flip skills in the other banner thread actually:

7 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

What banners need most is to be mobile and, with the exception of Battle Standard, have their casts removed. What we've discussed previously as the least radical change to banners but would also make them useful in PvP and WvW is:

• Banners now mount to the players back, possible reskinning them for cleaner placement, i.e. flowing behind the warrior rather then stretched across a frame as they are now. Cast time is instant
• Battle standard gets summoned and mounted like the others to pulse its effects, but receives a flip over skill with the current cast time for the current ground targeted rez/finish that desummons the banner and puts it on CD.
• Move Banner of Tactics to the heal slot, have it pulsing regen when summoned along with the stats, gives a flip over to heal in the area (something like 6000 HP)
• Give the other banners flip over skills that are thematic and grant effects. Each flip over would desummon the banner and put them on a 20s CD (120s for Battle Standard). Flip overs have cast times (1s for the Tactics, 1/2s to 1/4s for Strength, Discipline, Defense and 2s for Battle Standard) 
  • Strength could give out might, but it could also be a PBAoE that deals damage and burning
  • Discipline could give out Fury, but could also be an attack that ignores Blind and puts vulnerablity on foes in the area
  • Defense could give out protection and or resolution. Personally I'd make it's flipover skill an AoE stunbreak that grants protection and resolution.

The can keep the new light field when summoned, but if the did the above then Banners would actually be fun and useful to play with rather than being stupid static stat sticks.

and

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

You mean blast finisher right? I'd move Double Standards out of Discipline and into Tactics. Actually I'd swap it with Warrior's Cunning.

I'd then remove the stat bonus rider and change it so that the flip over skills cause condis on enemies in range and boons on allies in range:

Tactics: chill(4s), vigor(4s)

Strength: weakness (4s), 5 stacks of might (4s)

Discipline: An extra 5 stacks of Vuln (4s) ( I said Vulnerability above, think 5 stacks there and 5 more stacks here), quickness 4s

Defense: Blind (4s), 3 stacks of Stability 3s. (I said 20s CDs up above, but this would have to be like 30-35s in WvW/PvP)

Battle Standard I would change so that the flipover has a larger radius on the rez and finish areas and make them the same radius.

[Infusion.7149]

If they become mobile then the banners turn into gyros. If the recharge time is the issue then the recharge time could be adjusted.

There is no need to desummon the banner if you have a "flipover" skill though. You would lose all banner bonuses if that is the case which is a heavy hit to precision/ferocity.

Moving banner of tactics to heal slot would be a start as blood reckoning is only 2s duration of Berserk mode and Mending is not necessary on spellbreaker/core warrior if the banner has a decent heal skill.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

5 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If they become mobile then the banners turn into gyros. If the recharge time is the issue then the recharge time could be adjusted.

There is no need to desummon the banner if you have a "flipover" skill though. You would lose all banner bonuses if that is the case which is a heavy hit to precision/ferocity.

Moving banner of tactics to heal slot would be a start as blood reckoning is only 2s duration of Berserk mode and Mending is not necessary on spellbreaker/core warrior if the banner has a decent heal skill.

More like turning them into facets minus the energy upkeep and having durations instead.