Stale meta due to players

[Mell.4873]

How many year have we seen max dps, buff/healer roles. Atleast when druid was the only healer people wanted spirits, now its all about quickness and alacrity even though they have nerfed multiple times.

 

I feel like there are so many builds outside of heal brand and alacrity renegade but people don't want to let you play them since they are scared you will suck. 

 

I mean there are many amazing healers or buffers with tones on unique ways to play, for example a chrono healer can provide aoe quickness and alot of short duration aegis. Then mirage staff can do alacrity with strong condi dps and provide the some short duration aegis with choas vortex on staff 5 and heal skill.

 

Bring that to CM and no one will die. 

[Tdub.7628]

Start your own group as Chill. People will join it. I've been putting up those and never have issues. People can play what the want 😜

[Vidit.7108]

Well get yourself a static or a chill group. Most people in PUGs just don't want to spend more time doing fractals than they have to. You're going to dodge more in other group comps and that means slower dps. Any healer can work but it requires learning new tactics in some fractals. 
It's less about quick/alac and more about the ability to upkeep all of those boons mixed with the utility of near on demand aegis and stability. Instabs also play a role in limiting what builds get in, it's really hard to keep Weavers alive without aegis or barrier. Damage mitigation is just as important as healing sometimes and less reflects and condi clears are make or break.

[Jski.6180]

I think removing quickness and alacrity from effect any thing but wepon skills would go a long way to fixing the current meta. Its kind of silly to use alacrity to reduce the cd of your alacrity skill. Its also odd to have quickness make big slow skills that give quickness faster. I also like to see the only way to get quickness and alacrity would be from utility.

[Asum.4960]

Nerfing supports and increasing general self-sufficiency (as per original intention of GW2) certainly would make the game more interesting. 

Having multiple hybrid specs that can interlock in different ways for similar performance imo makes for more engaging and varying gameplay, it does come with more group finding difficulty though. 

 

People tend to like BiS supports because it's easy to just search for those set group compositions then, rather than needing the game knowledge and attentiveness of knowing what specs work well with which others, and adjusting LFG's on the fly depending on what joins when. 

 

In any case, get used to FB, with specs like Bladesworn and Harbinger on the horizon, you really want that Stability and Aegis spam, because one really doesn't want to get interrupted in even just the most minor ways, and the other one will fall over when sneezed at - so we are kind of moving in the opposite direction there with that specific support reliance becoming even stronger, rather than getting away from it with more self-sufficient specs.

 

Although imo the Chrono+Druid meta in all of organized PvE for years was much more stale still.

[Al Masone.1274]

Player will always revolve around what is most convient. And due to a painful lack of balance updates, we've had the same things for years. Thus players stick to what is keeps being most effective. 

Sure there are other ways to play the game, but then you have to build a full ascended set of armor (at least trinkets are trivial to get) and find a particular team composition in which you toon can fit. Meanwhile what has been generally popular continues to be effective more or less at all levels of play. 

IMO it's not the players, it's the devs who need to pay more attention to the professions, in order to keep the game fresh. I love, love this game, don't misunderstand me, but if the game is so stale it's because Anet is incredibly scared of touching the gameplay in general more than once a year, and even then they just change a couple things here and there. 

[Obtena.7952]

There is truth in the thread idea ... as long as players push meta when they don't need to ... playing the game with THOSE people will be stale. 

[Sobx.1758]

On 10/1/2021 at 5:04 PM, tswehr.2143 said:

Start your own group as Chill. People will join it. I've been putting up those and never have issues. People can play what the want 😜

^true.

Pretty much it's only "stale" if someone wants to play with players that are pushing meta builds/comps. Join/create groups according to what and how you want to play.

[Mell.4873]

On 10/3/2021 at 5:55 AM, Sobx.1758 said:

^true.

Pretty much it's only "stale" if someone wants to play with players that are pushing meta builds/comps. Join/create groups according to what and how you want to play.

It is more that i get blamed even in casual groups that they are missing something since I'm not playing my meta class. Like mirage alac can't provide protection like renegade can. 

[Mell.4873]

On 10/3/2021 at 2:06 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

There is truth in the thread idea ... as long as players push meta when they don't need to ... playing the game with THOSE people will be stale. 

It might just be in fractals, I never see it anywhere else even in raids and strikes people are pretty flexible with what you bring. 

[Janitsu.6284]

Quickness and Alacrity increase the party's DPS by a huge margin while these classes also deal decent enough DPS themselves. That's why people want them.

[Obtena.7952]

On 10/4/2021 at 11:54 PM, Mell.4873 said:

It might just be in fractals, I never see it anywhere else even in raids and strikes people are pretty flexible with what you bring. 

Again, just depends on who you team with. You can find lots of threads complaining about classes being 'not meta enough' in the subforums for any instanced content. Regardless, meta is stale because it's based on an optimal solution to content. So as long as the content doesn't change, it's unlikely meta changes that much, unless we get some meta-breaking changes on classes. It's happened, but Anet never has stated those changes are made to 'freshen meta'. It's just a coincidence. 

Edited October 11, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Mell.4873]

On 10/11/2021 at 3:14 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, just depends on who you team with. You can find lots of threads complaining about classes being 'not meta enough' in the subforums for any instanced content. Regardless, meta is stale because it's based on an optimal solution to content. So as long as the content doesn't change, it's unlikely meta changes that much, unless we get some meta-breaking changes on classes. It's happened, but Anet never has stated those changes are made to 'freshen meta'. It's just a coincidence. 

I think there are tones of amazing builds but people don't want them. I mean ranger alone has so many support skills that go unused in fractals, but in raids they are required.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Mell.4873

[Astralporing.1957]

Meta is stale not because of the players, but because the situation that gave rise to that meta did not change. For meta to change, you need balance to shift first.

[Obtena.7952]

On 10/12/2021 at 6:43 AM, Mell.4873 said:

I think there are tones of amazing builds but people don't want them. I mean ranger alone has so many support skills that go unused in fractals, but it raids they are required.

Are you not understanding what I'm telling you ? That simply depends on who you play with; I play whatever amazing build I want, and the people I play with don't care what they are.

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Genesis.5169]

Hey OP can you tell me what stops you from making your own group and playing with like minded people.

[anbujackson.9564]

Cant remember the last time I saw a group looking for two chronos when talking about meta, not to mention that no chrono does alacrity anymore. Its like renegade is a must have or because people desperately want their hfb. Duo chrono is so strong and improves your general boon uptime so much, that the boons never run out, even in phases (add a druid and a heal herald/tempest and you got every defense boon you need). Compare that to the uptime you see nowadays and ye.. You can be happy if they are up prrmanently in golem encounters. In other fights though.. My favorite example is probably sabetha when you go for a cannon and all your boons except might and maybe swiftness already ran out when you landed near it. 

 

Then again I saw group running a support chrono, quickfirebrand, healfirebrand AND alacrity renegade to cover the boons (quickness and alac). And it still sucked. Those hybrid builds are truly awful (for pugs that is) and everyone just cares about the damage they can do.

Edited October 18, 2021 by anbujackson.9564

[Lethion.8745]

Point me a game where most popular class/character is not the strongest one. You can't. Because losing is not fun and people will always tend to chose to best way to win, be it PvP or PvE (beating a hard boss etc.). What you say is like "Why rich people only buy last model cars? There are so many good old cars." Sure there are old-car enjoyers but majority will prefer fastest and most comfortable car. It's developer's job to update the game, saving it from a stale meta. I don't know who was it but I remember a gaming Youtuber saying "Developers saves players from themselves with balance changes" and I believe it's so true. 

[AshenOwl.2485]

2 hours ago, Lethion.8745 said:

Point me a game where most popular class/character is not the strongest one. You can't. Because losing is not fun and people will always tend to chose to best way to win, be it PvP or PvE (beating a hard boss etc.). What you say is like "Why rich people only buy last model cars? There are so many good old cars." Sure there are old-car enjoyers but majority will prefer fastest and most comfortable car. It's developer's job to update the game, saving it from a stale meta. I don't know who was it but I remember a gaming Youtuber saying "Developers saves players from themselves with balance changes" and I believe it's so true. 

FFXIV. Black Mages have the highest potential DPS of any class in the game, but they're nowhere near the most popular class.

[Obtena.7952]

6 hours ago, Lethion.8745 said:

Point me a game where most popular class/character is not the strongest one. You can't. 

Actually, you can, including this one, because what is strongest is not part of everyone's criteria for choosing a class. Also, what is strongest in a situation depends on how capable the player is at using that class. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lethion.8745]

11 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, you can, including this one, because what is strongest is not part of everyone's criteria for choosing a class. Also, what is strongest in a situation depends on how capable the player is at using that class. 

Are you stalking me to disagree with my every comment

[Obtena.7952]

30 minutes ago, Lethion.8745 said:

Are you stalking me to disagree with my every comment

I don't disagree with every comment you make ... just the ones that aren't correct. It may surprise you but ... SOME people aren't just playing whatever is the strongest and GW2 makes that easier to do than most MMOs out there. 

If you don't understand why I'm replying to you, it's because your comment supports meta pushing and that's not acceptable to me. If we have a whole bunch of people saying things that aren't true that supports people ONLY playing 'what is strongest' ... then eventually, it's the only thing people believe. I'm here to make sure people remember and understand there IS a different way to play than 'the strongest' and this game 100% supports that mentality by how it's designed. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

People think meta is the only way. But as previously mentioned. Mark your group as chill. And you will get competent people who couldn't give a kitten about what you are using. As its more about if you know what you are doing.

[Mell.4873]

On 10/19/2021 at 6:27 AM, Genesis.5169 said:

Hey OP can you tell me what stops you from making your own group and playing with like minded people.

No one will join my groups and the ones that do can't do t4 fractals.

[Mell.4873]

On 10/19/2021 at 6:29 AM, anbujackson.9564 said:

Cant remember the last time I saw a group looking for two chronos when talking about meta, not to mention that no chrono does alacrity anymore. Its like renegade is a must have or because people desperately want their hfb. Duo chrono is so strong and improves your general boon uptime so much, that the boons never run out, even in phases (add a druid and a heal herald/tempest and you got every defense boon you need). Compare that to the uptime you see nowadays and ye.. You can be happy if they are up prrmanently in golem encounters. In other fights though.. My favorite example is probably sabetha when you go for a cannon and all your boons except might and maybe swiftness already ran out when you landed near it. 

 

Then again I saw group running a support chrono, quickfirebrand, healfirebrand AND alacrity renegade to cover the boons (quickness and alac). And it still sucked. Those hybrid builds are truly awful (for pugs that is) and everyone just cares about the damage they can do.

Chrono is actually amazing at healing, providing alac and quickness but the main issue it you need to stack on them for the duration of the well. Since they can cast it roughly 4-5 times at the start of the fight. But if people don't know that then how are you supposed to give them 40 seconds of alac.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Mell.4873