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Am I playing a MMO game or reading a book?


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Bad at open world? people tell you to read a guide,watch a video,

Bad at raid?people tell you to read a guide,watch a video, join a discord and train,play for 100+ hours before you are able to play with them

Bad at dungeons and fractals?people tell you to read a guide, watch a video,join a discord and train or people just leave the group after saying you suck.

Bad at WvW?people tell you to read a guide, watch a video. join a discord and train.

Bad at pvp? people tell you to read a guide, watch a video, join a discord and train.

Does getting killed over and over and over again without understanding why despite reading the entire UI that you have feels good? if not, read a guide

 

Remember when arenanet posted a link to snowcrows and a lot of people on twitter bashed them or how mightyteapot say most resources are outside of the game?

Is there a need to read a guide every time a new player wants to play the game? Can't he or she learn through in game tutorial or in game guides?

 

You know, i actually just want to play the game like fortnite, LoL,new world,WoW,FFXIV,dota 2 instead of having to join discords and searching all over for an updated guide for a game where there isn't enough content on social media platforms.

Edited by Danjorus.2671
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Bad at open world? people tell you to read a guide,watch a video, Bad at raid?people tell you to read a guide,watch a video, join a discord and train,play for 100+ hours before you are able to pl

Well true.     It does seem odd that a community is actually helpful in an MMO.      

A point that no one would ever know about unless they read the forum.

Regardless of ingame resources, in my opinion, there's always more fruitful resources online elsewhere for any game I've played. 

You can get by in GW2 without looking things up on the wiki, for example (stuff is added to the wiki by players, after all, so people did it without that), but in general why would you want to?

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Guides change as the game changes. Anet can't hardcode something in because it will be as relevant after a major change as getting a paper MMO guidebook.

Some things can and should be made clearer in-game (breakbars come to mind) but the guides people tell you to read were made as a community project and community response to something Anet cannot maintain themselves. You can get by fine in the game without guides if you are willing to listen to people but if you're looking to be at the top of any mode or be in the meta, you will have to use guides.

Which happens with every game where players want to min-max, not just GW2 or MMOs.

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Admittedly, GW2 could give better tutorials about basic mechanics in game (e.g., breakbars, UI, etc.).

But, out-of-game guides are rather ubiquitous with gaming these days, even moreso with online games.
GW2 is just blessed with an amazing wiki, so most people just tell you to check it out because it is a useful resource and explains things beyond what could be explained in a game (due to details) or would be incredibly time consuming for players to explain to each other each time. Instead players just explain it once very well (the wiki).

1 hour ago, Danjorus.2671 said:

i actually just want to play the game like fortnite, LoL,new world,WoW,FFXIV,dota 2

To be fair, I play some of those and use guides for them too (dungeon guides for FFXIV for example), because I am new and want to prepare myself since I know I will likely be playing with veterans who already know what they want.

In all the games you mentioned, including GW2, you are not forced to read outside sources...that's why they are outside. You can totally play with trial and error if you are okay with not knowing what you are doing for a much longer time than is required. I played from 1-80 and the whole personal story before even knowing there was a wiki or whatever.
 

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To be fair, you can do just fine by literally reading the tooltips ingame, taking the time to look at your skills and traits, testing what works and what doesn't, and make your own build/tactic.

The reason most people go to guides is because

1) People like to have something they know to be reliably efficient to start, then customize their loadout from there. Guides and online builds provide adequate help in doing so.

2) Encounters are naturally messy and fast paced, making a couple of line a text rather poor at describing what it Actually looks like, so videos goes a long way into easing someone with difficulties into an encounter, and they're easier to follow generally.

3) In the end more help is better than none. If you dont like it, you can do it like the first ones who encountered and do without. People have done so successfully and take pleasure and satisfaction in doing so. Just because it exist doesn't mean it is mandatory, like everything else

I'll admit some things could be added in to explain some basic things such as Soft and Hard CC on defiance, and the difference between blocks, evades and reflects

Edited by Naxos.2503
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I think the OP has a point. I have found very little is intuitive in the game. Everything is pretty much a hidden easter egg. Playing this game after 2 years I have never felt so lost. All games i have played give you a idea or tutorial on things, they have paths and journals that explain the zones, that just dont happen here. As a matter of fact i sometimes find something and tell it in guild and even the 9 year vets didnt know about it. I just happened to stumble on it. You cannot get by without wiki in this game, you will be stumbling around for hours trying to get something done, and thats not really how other games do it.

I dont want to spend half my game time alt tabbed looking up stuff, i think thats a valid point. And to tell people that ask a question to wiki it is not very community oriented. If someone ask something in map i know i will tell them. Many new players dont know what the heck you mean when you say that, it comes off as trollish to them. I know i have been there, just started the game level 8 or 9 asked a question was told wiki it. Im like wth does that mean? Do people forget new players come to this game. 

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Just now, Dawdler.8521 said:

A point that no one would ever know about unless they read the forum.

Unfortunately unlike FF or WoW this games playerbase dont even know about the forum or dont even bother. its also part of the reason things stay broken because this game dont have the masses beating down the door to demand a fix. They dont have the reports when the  💩 hits the fan so little gets taken care of. They dont have a community that binds together outside of the game here. I made tons of ingame friends though forums because they were busy and had a lot of players socializing in them. I have not seen one social thread a meet and greet get to know your neighbors from the game. Its very strange to me that FF and even wow have these forum communities that actually play together, but here its like social interaction is taboo. 

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To use Fractals as an example:

Every Fractal is its own tutorial. There's objective tooltips, there's escalating mechanics (think about how every part of Sunquaa teaches you what the final encounter will be, for example), there's lots of NPC chatter telling you to do X, Y, or Z. In addition, casual groups are also pretty good at summarizing what to do in-game if you just say "I don't know this one yet" or "I'm rusty."

So what do you get out of Discretize, the wiki, or a quick guide video like this? You get some extra guidance on how to do stuff rather than just what to do, and you can go study it at your own pace.

Why isn't it all in-game? Because the devs don't know the exact optimal thing to be doing when they design various section of the game. They have a general sense of what's required to beat the encounter but the optimal comp and optimal strategy are discovered and iterated over time by the player base as a whole.

 

And the only place in the game where the training and the guides and whatnot really get heavy, imo, is Raids. That Fractal video I linked? It's 30 minutes to cover all of the Fractals below CMs. You can learn the basics of SPvP roles and rotations in about the same amount of time. Equivalent text guides are a few pages each. That's enough to catch you up on community standards of what "good play" is so you're not stumbling around.

Orrrr… you can find someone to play with who will teach you in game (it is an MMO, after all).

Edited by ASP.8093
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The truth is, the best way to learn about the game for most people is playing with people who know the game and getting taught. I teach this game to a lot of people.  They play with me and learn stuff by explanation as it's going.  You can get through most stuff solo by just trial and error, but most people don't want to die repeatedly and figure it out (which is often what I do when new stuff comes out).  


If you're like me, you can figure stuff out the hard way. If you're not like me you can find a decent guild or you can research stuff online. There's options for everyone.

 

In a single player game you shouldn't have to look things up but in an MMO it's made for groups of people to work on stuff together. When new story comes out, we get together with friends or guildies and we play that content together, everyone throwing out ideas or trying to figure it out until it's done. Some of my best memories of the game are like this.  Then those that figure it out teach other people in the guild.


Some people don't want to join a guild but there are still videos and wikis and reddit to help people who want to go about it without having social contact with anyone else. The point as, as game that's an MMO, it's okay that you can't do it all on your own.

If you think otherwise, you're probably better off with single player games.

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3 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

If you think otherwise, you're probably better off with single player games.

I played mmos for decades and honestly this is the one I have had to alt tab the most with. I can literally level in other games without ever having to look up something. The time comes for alt tabbing when you are going to raid and need the rundown on bosses mechanics builds, when you want to farm something rare like a mount or a weapon you want to know the location and spawn times. Having to look up basic stuff all the time is a bit much. Its why new players get frustrated there is no organization its all higgly wiggly to them. I dang near quit , and I did for a year and a half because the frustration of having to look up everything. 

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I consider myself a player who likes to help other players. Although a lot of the problems I solve probably could have been fixed by typing /wiki, I think that misses the more human element - things like rumors, theory crafting, preferences, experience, in-game assistance, etc.

 

Honestly, I think it's a little cold when people respond to "how do I XXX" with "READ THE WIKI!" or "GO WATCH A GUIDE ON YOUTUBE", because sharing the MMO with a fresh player is probably one of the most fun aspects of the game IMO.

Edited by Westenev.5289
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3 hours ago, Danjorus.2671 said:

Bad at open world? people tell you to read a guide,watch a video,

Bad at raid?people tell you to read a guide,watch a video, join a discord and train,play for 100+ hours before you are able to play with them

Bad at dungeons and fractals?people tell you to read a guide, watch a video,join a discord and train or people just leave the group after saying you suck.

Bad at WvW?people tell you to read a guide, watch a video. join a discord and train.

Bad at pvp? people tell you to read a guide, watch a video, join a discord and train.

Does getting killed over and over and over again without understanding why despite reading the entire UI that you have feels good? if not, read a guide

 

Remember when arenanet posted a link to snowcrows and a lot of people on twitter bashed them or how mightyteapot say most resources are outside of the game?

Is there a need to read a guide every time a new player wants to play the game? Can't he or she learn through in game tutorial or in game guides?

 

You know, i actually just want to play the game like fortnite, LoL,new world,WoW,FFXIV,dota 2 instead of having to join discords and searching all over for an updated guide for a game where there isn't enough content on social media platforms.

 

So, why was it okay to perform poorly in these other games but not this one?  You aren't really suggesting you played <100 hours of WoW, never looked anything up, and were performing at a high level, are you?

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52 minutes ago, Tiviana.2650 said:

I played mmos for decades and honestly this is the one I have had to alt tab the most with. I can literally level in other games without ever having to look up something. The time comes for alt tabbing when you are going to raid and need the rundown on bosses mechanics builds, when you want to farm something rare like a mount or a weapon you want to know the location and spawn times. Having to look up basic stuff all the time is a bit much. Its why new players get frustrated there is no organization its all higgly wiggly to them. I dang near quit , and I did for a year and a half because the frustration of having to look up everything. 

I think most of us managed to level up way back when without using the Wiki.  In fact, there wasn't that much in the Wiki back then. 

I know I didn't ever look up anything in the Wiki for like a year, or so.  Really, leveling a character to 80 in Core isn't that difficult.  🤷‍♂️

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4 hours ago, Danjorus.2671 said:

Is there a need to read a guide every time a new player wants to play the game?

No, there certainly isn't.

 

In fact, reading your op, there is one thing I would tell you that certainly is missing in there: Go find people that actually like to play with other people, instead of playing with those that don't really care and just want a "perfect at <insertgamemmode> bot" to fill out their teams.

 

There are plenty of people around that actually enjoy playing with people that haven't yet hit the peak of in-game experience, that like to share what they know or figure things out together. People that expect you to study to be worthy to play with them generally aren't worth playing with.

 

4 hours ago, Danjorus.2671 said:

Can't he or she learn through in game tutorial or in game guides?

You can, to a point. GW2 does give you a lot of hints in tooltips, combat log, npc chat, and more. It does however take time and willingness to experiment, and if you want to learn about group content, then you need to play with people that are ok with you trying to figure things out and make mistakes, see above.

 

Singleplayer tutorials that give you the experience you need to be perfect at multiplayer content is technically impossible.

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5 hours ago, Danjorus.2671 said:

Bad at open world? people tell you to read a guide,watch a video,

Bad at raid?people tell you to read a guide,watch a video, join a discord and train,play for 100+ hours before you are able to play with them

Bad at dungeons and fractals?people tell you to read a guide, watch a video,join a discord and train or people just leave the group after saying you suck.

Bad at WvW?people tell you to read a guide, watch a video. join a discord and train.

Bad at pvp? people tell you to read a guide, watch a video, join a discord and train.

Does getting killed over and over and over again without understanding why despite reading the entire UI that you have feels good? if not, read a guide

 

I hope the game doesn't force you to actually read skills or traits destription

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