Is Tower Jumping required for the new achievement? (optional now)

[radda.8920]

1 hour ago, mythical.6315 said:

There are two chests before the final one. 

three

[wondermuffin.9680]

The worst part for me is having to wait a good 30 seconds to a minute between each try/fail. Getting better at the jumping puzzle is a matter of practice, but if you keep forcing me to wait a minute or so between each attempt, then I'll get bored quite fast and go do something else. 

[Danikat.8537]

I think there's a bit of 'design dissonance' going on here. Apparently when it was originally made Josh Foreman (who made most of the jumping puzzles) was asked to make something really difficult, but at the time it was just one of several mini games and there were no meta achievements or anything like that so all the different Halloween activities were optional and it didn't really matter if someone couldn't do it, or didn't want to.

Years later we've got developers making achievements to tie together all the festival content, presumably with the idea that it will encourage players to do a bit of everything, having forgotten (or never been told, if they joined later) that it was originally designed to be stupidly difficult and not something everyone could do.

10 hours ago, notebene.3190 said:

Wanted to stop by to say I appreciate the suggestions like using the action camera and maybe just working on trying to get the first chest, then do that like 20 times. I don't know if I'm going to continue on that line or not, but after 15 failures, it's looking doubtful. It's a combination of the timer that kills you and the timer you have to wait between, it's most likely not something I'm going to be able to do.

 

Having said that, did want to tip my hat to the ideas. I'm sure it will help some people. 

I have to be honest, when I was writing that I'd forgotten that there are blind GW2 players. I was mostly thinking about players who aren't disabled but struggle with jumping puzzles and potentially physical disabilities as using Action Camera reduces it to 2 buttons and moving the mouse around which can make it easier, or at least less uncomfortable than holding down a mouse button while moving it.

Blindness is one disability I don't have much experience with. For work I've been to a few events hosted by the RNIB (one of the major UK charities for sight loss) and they consistently amaze me with their creative solutions but it's stuff I'd never think about. Especially in games, I'm very focused on visuals and often have to play with the sound off so relying mainly or entirely on sound is a total reversal of what I'm used to and hard for me to imagine.

 

7 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

Is this something completely new? I wasn't aware the jumping puzzle has checkpoints now. I've been unable to even get half-way through the the Clocktower for the 9 years it's been in the game. If there are multiple chests I've never gotten one.

When they made the new outfit achievement set most players who complained about the jumping puzzle's difficulty then got shouted down by the "Try better" crowd. So it's honestly nice to see anyone here saying "yeah this does kind of suck"

It doesn't have checkpoints, it has bonus chests along the course. Until now they've been irrelevant (unless for some reason you want an extra challenge) because they don't save your progress or count for the other achievements and they only give a tiny reward (I think 1 trick-or-treat bag).

The easiest one to find is on the platform where you have to drop down - it's right in the middle of the platform so you'll probably land on it, but that's also quite a way into the course. The first one is off on the left (outer) side a bit after the first part where you have to wait for the platforms to appear (sorry this is really vague but I don't know how else to describe it and I can't be precise because I'm not in game right now).

Edited October 6, 2021 by Danikat.8537

[Vidit.7108]

24 minutes ago, Danikat.8537 said:

The easiest one to find is on the platform where you have to drop down - it's right in the middle of the platform so you'll probably land on it, but that's also quite a way into the course. The first one is off on the left (outer) side a bit after the first part where you have to wait for the platforms to appear (sorry this is really vague but I don't know how else to describe it and I can't be precise because I'm not in game right now).

Ty you anyway but it doesn't sound like a part of the JP I've been to or been able to reach anyway. I'm not that good at jumping puzzles.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

7 hours ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

What chest? There are no chests unless you finish the JP... 😕

There are chests here and there about the puzzle with loot. They are meant to cause you to lose due to greed, but it is possible to gather the chests and complete the JP, though I think there is one part way through that you are guaranteed to fail if you try to get it.

[Veprovina.4876]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

There are chests here and there about the puzzle with loot. They are meant to cause you to lose due to greed, but it is possible to gather the chests and complete the JP, though I think there is one part way through that you are guaranteed to fail if you try to get it.

  

8 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

There are two chests before the final one. 

 

Oh wow, i can't even get to the first chest...

And i get cramps from arthritis when i do the JP for more than 15 minutes.

Why is this JP required, like, wtf?

[Shrimpkin.4851]

I was looking forward to doing the new achievements until I saw the Clocktower was a requirement, I've never been able to complete it.  I've tried multiple times over 8 years and I just don't have the speed or dexterity because of my disability.  I wasn't even aware there were multiple chests as I've never gotten far enough through it to find a single one.  It's disappointing.

[mikansei.5742]

What really gets me is that the other achievements in this category have multiple ways to fulfill them. For "Deference to the King" You can do Ascent to Madness and/or Mad King Says; "Untangling the Labyrinth" counts overworld door events in Gendarran Fields etc. as well as lab door events; any combination of race trials and events will count for "Race to the Precipice".

So why didn't they give an alternate method to fulfill the achievement involving the notoriously difficult and buggy jumping puzzle?

[mythical.6315]

Because there’s only one jumping puzzle?

[mikansei.5742]

Just now, mythical.6315 said:

Because there’s only one jumping puzzle?

There's also only one Ascent to Madness and only one Mad King Says, but doing either of those things will count towards the same achievement.

[mythical.6315]

2 minutes ago, mikansei.5742 said:

There's also only one Ascent to Madness and only one Mad King Says, but doing either of those things will count towards the same achievement.

The Mad Kings Says portion exists in both events. The jumping puzzle only exists in the, well… jumping puzzle. 

[mikansei.5742]

1 minute ago, mythical.6315 said:

The Mad Kings Says portion exists in both events. The jumping puzzle only exists in the, well… jumping puzzle. 

The point is that if you don't want to do AtM you have the option of doing MKS to progress the achievement. There's no reason they couldn't have also given the JP achievement alternate criteria.

[mythical.6315]

9 minutes ago, mikansei.5742 said:

The point is that if you don't want to do AtM you have the option of doing MKS to progress the achievement. There's no reason they couldn't have also given the JP achievement alternate criteria.

But if you don’t want to do the Mad King Says, you have no other option just like you have no other option but to do the JP. 
 

You’re essentially comparing apples to oranges. You’re comparing an objective for one achievement to the locations available to complete the objectives of other achievements. You either compare the objectives or the locations separately. You do not mix and match. 

Edited October 6, 2021 by mythical.6315

[Valandil.6453]

I was looking forward to this year's Halloween festival, but now that I see one of the new achievements is contingent upon completion (or part thereof) of that harrowing JP which I've never completed in the 9 years of Halloweens I've done thus far.

 

Josh made this JP so that almost no one but the best in dexterity could finish it. I don't have disabilities as such, but I do only use the arrow keys on the keyboard. I'm old-school and used to playing single-player games and their controls, not like this new generation that uses WASD-mouselook. I've tried to change, it doesn't work and only leads to frustration.

 

The JP had a mild revision in the 2nd Halloween festival after everyone complained about larger characters making them not be able to see where they were jumping, and the mist-form characters we now have. But we're still made to wait until the last toon is off the tower before we can try again. Old mechanics, boredom-inducing, needs revising. I've never once gotten to even half-way up the tower, much less been able to loot any chests (which I've also never seen).

 

Try-Harder crowd? How about YOU try harder, I want to keep some of my sanity. Don't have this JP tied to any more achievements as having one of its own is bad enough. Also revise the junk items (rewards) to not be junk, as I vendored mine without even knowing that they were integral to keeping track of that achievement line.

[mythical.6315]

26 minutes ago, Valandil Dragonhart.2371 said:

I was looking forward to this year's Halloween festival, but now that I see one of the new achievements is contingent upon completion (or part thereof) of that harrowing JP which I've never completed in the 9 years of Halloweens I've done thus far.

 

Josh made this JP so that almost no one but the best in dexterity could finish it. I don't have disabilities as such, but I do only use the arrow keys on the keyboard. I'm old-school and used to playing single-player games and their controls, not like this new generation that uses WASD-mouselook. I've tried to change, it doesn't work and only leads to frustration.

 

The JP had a mild revision in the 2nd Halloween festival after everyone complained about larger characters making them not be able to see where they were jumping, and the mist-form characters we now have. But we're still made to wait until the last toon is off the tower before we can try again. Old mechanics, boredom-inducing, needs revising. I've never once gotten to even half-way up the tower, much less been able to loot any chests (which I've also never seen).

 

Try-Harder crowd? How about YOU try harder, I want to keep some of my sanity. Don't have this JP tied to any more achievements as having one of its own is bad enough. Also revise the junk items (rewards) to not be junk, as I vendored mine without even knowing that they were integral to keeping track of that achievement line.

The first chest is like 10 seconds into the JP and it gives 5 points. You only need to open that one 20 times during the Halloween event to complete the achievement. You can just make it an unofficial daily and open it once per day. 

[Andy.5981]

8 hours ago, Danikat.8537 said:

I think there's a bit of 'design dissonance' going on here. Apparently when it was originally made Josh Foreman (who made most of the jumping puzzles) was asked to make something really difficult, but at the time it was just one of several mini games and there were no meta achievements or anything like that so all the different Halloween activities were optional and it didn't really matter if someone couldn't do it, or didn't want to.

Years later we've got developers making achievements to tie together all the festival content, presumably with the idea that it will encourage players to do a bit of everything, having forgotten (or never been told, if they joined later) that it was originally designed to be stupidly difficult and not something everyone could do.

I have to be honest, when I was writing that I'd forgotten that there are blind GW2 players. I was mostly thinking about players who aren't disabled but struggle with jumping puzzles and potentially physical disabilities as using Action Camera reduces it to 2 buttons and moving the mouse around which can make it easier, or at least less uncomfortable than holding down a mouse button while moving it.
 

Could this be brought to the attention of the Devs at their next meeting. This guy that I quoted gets it. There are issues locking achievments behind things that some people physically cannot do.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Andy.5981

[mikansei.5742]

2 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

You either compare the objectives or the locations separately. You do not mix and match. 

Why not, though?

These achievements didn't spring fully formed from the aether. Someone designed and coded them. That design and coding can be changed. There's nothing inherently immutable about their current state.

[mythical.6315]

53 minutes ago, mikansei.5742 said:

Why not, though?

These achievements didn't spring fully formed from the aether. Someone designed and coded them. That design and coding can be changed. There's nothing inherently immutable about their current state.

Because they’re two very different things. 

[Moira Shalaar.5620]

This seems to be a fight that those of us who struggle with JPs have to keep fighting over and over and over, whether that be with the Tower, or Ember Bay or other JPs in the game. At times the devs seems to listen to us and give us at least one alternative option so that we can complete achievements without the JP, then they turn around and do the same thing over again. The earlier post by Danikat seems to well put a finger on the likely problem, but surely there ought to be some sort of Standard Operating Procedures type document that gives the basic framework for (re)designing their content that could be updated to include the need for alternatives to known, difficult to accomplish content. 

If there isn't such a document, it would be a great way to help institutionalize some of the lessons that have been learned by the experienced developers so that those aren't lost through the inevitable turnover that happens at any company. 

For myself I can't claim any disability, just a gut-wrenching issue with heights that is equally bad whether at the top of a rappelling lane, looking out the door before I skydive, or looking at a "virtual" depth on my monitor. I have tried to improve, and on some JPs have actually been able to do so, but just cannot seem to manage more than a few tries before my BP & pulse are higher than it is worth risking. 

[Excursion.9752]

I feel for the people who have problems with this JP. The first year it was released I raged for many hours trying to do it just one time. My problem was I just wasn't good at the controls yet. I didn't fully understand how holding the right mouse button down while pressing W would run me in the direction the camera was pointing.  I watched YouTube videos of people completing it to figure out the best path to get to the end. After all of that I still was unable to clear it the first year.

By the second year I had a better handle on the controls of the game and after about 1 hour I was able to finish it.  The tricky part about this particular puzzle is that its timed and knowing that can increase your anxiety and cause you to make careless mistakes. You have to move past that don't think about it. Just focus on trying to get one jump better than last time.  Eventually you will do it enough that you will fly through certain parts and leave you more time the more challenging jumps at different parts of the puzzle.

I do wish they would create an infantile mode where there is no timer so that people could take their time on it and figure it out. Having people wait long periods between tries fuels people anxiety as well.  I say open up the gates and let people run up and try it again.  No need for the kill wall. Once people feel comfortable enough they will try the real thing.

As for people with disabilities they really need to figure out a way to aid you in completing this especially since it is a precursor to some items/achievements.  I wish I could jump for you or donate a jump from my account. 

[StupyEskimo.6172]

34 minutes ago, Excursion.9752 said:

I do wish they would create an infantile mode where there is no timer so that people could take their time on it and figure it out. Having people wait long periods between tries fuels people anxiety as well.  I say open up the gates and let people run up and try it again.  No need for the kill wall. Once people feel comfortable enough they will try the real thing.

As for people with disabilities they really need to figure out a way to aid you in completing this especially since it is a precursor to some items/achievements.  I wish I could jump for you or donate a jump from my account. 

 

I really feel like things that are like the "Story" achievement, you need to have access to an easier or non-time limited version, especially if next year it will just be on the vendor.
Make a "Story" version and have a normal version, that way if you just want to practice you can practice for the real thing in a mostly-stress free environment, or if you cannot do the normal version even to the first chest, you can still do the story achievement.

 

I want to see where the story goes myself, but I don't have it physically in me to do it again. Might just do the first chest trick others have mentioned during good times, if I be stubborn, but admittedly even though I've done it I was so focused on the jumps I didn't realize there were chests.

[Silent.6137]

Even without physical disabilities, many have a hard time with JPs because of other factors.  "Try harder" is a very  condescending statement. Those who are here probably have tried countless times and are very frustrated. If they haven't "try harder" and been defeated again and again trying to get the achievements, they wouldn't be here posting in threads such as this.

 

It would be good to have a Noob mode  where the platforms will not disappear, but the progress will be 1 or very limited, instead of 20. Or double the time before the platforms disappear but you'll only get10% or 25% of the regular progress.. I'm sure many fail repeatedly because of the anxieties over the disappearing platforms, and no matter how hard they try, they just can't overcome this.

Another frustrating feature for those having a tough time with the JP is the waiting. Hard enough trying over and over again, but forced to wait to retry, just made it doubly frustrating .

Edited October 6, 2021 by Silent.6137

[Random Wax Orc.7695]

If Anet wants to make the Halloween and Wintersday JPs more accessible to all players... allow character buffs and skills back into the JPs.  Like Quickness in Clocktower and Healing in wonderland.

Anything involving either of those two JPs is just a giant buzzkill as far as I am concerned. 😐

[Danikat.8537]

For people struggling with the tower (or other activities) it might be worth checking what the rewards from the Court Duty achievements are before putting yourself through too much stress to get it, because for a lot of people it's not going to be worth it.

• Court Duty: Terror of the Tower gives 5AP.
• Court Duty: Gathering Evidence gives 2AP and 3 Personalised Trick-or-Treat bags.
• Court Duty: Where Lunatics Dare gives 3AP and 3 Personalised Trick-or-Treat bags.

Court Duty: All's Mad That Ends Mad gives 10AP and a

Spoiler

mini Spectral Palawa Joko

 

(Urgh, the new forum doesn't do in-line spoilers either?)

I'm not sure it's much of a spoiler, it's listed on the Shadow of the Mad King 2021 page on the Wiki, but since it's hidden in the game I put it under a spoiler tag.

Of course there's the story told by the achievements too, but you could watch a video or read the Wiki to get that (once all the details are added), which I know isn't the same but if the alternative is wasting your time on an impossible task it might be worth settling for an alternative method.

On the other hand I realise some people will still want to complete it knowing what the reward is (and some may be even more determined) and I completely understand that because I've put myself through all sorts of things I probably shouldn't have bothered with for similar rewards and I do think Anet should address the dissonance of deliberately designing a jumping puzzle they knew many people would be unable to complete then requring completion for otherwise fairly accessible achievements.

That could be done by giving players another way to complete the puzzle (although addressing all the reasons that's not possible for different people might be a lot of work and probably won't happen this year) or giving an alternative way to get the same item which is considered comparable for a skilled player (bearing in mind it 'only' takes 3 successful runs, which a skilled JP player can do in a matter of minutes) but which requires different activities.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Danikat.8537

[Vidit.7108]

I was able to make it to one of the chests. There are two problems:
1. Once I open a chest it doesn't respawn when I fail the jumping puzzle. So I have to leave the instance each time to get 5 points toward the achievement. EDIT: Sometimes I don't get a new instance and reach the chest again to find it's the same instance as before and the chest isn't there.
2. Even though it's right in my path I can't consistently reach it because I'm too slow.

I don't care about achievement progress or the rewards, I just want to experience the fun new story bits on my own character. They've never required a timed jumping puzzle for side-quest story before that I can think of.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Vidit.7108