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What Am I Missing? It feels like Thief Hate


Jitters.9401

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For the record I do not run one of those near perma stealth thieves. I spend most of my fight time visible but sometimes I would like to to use the stealth mechanic.

 

(1) Chain Reveal 

In any battle where guards are present, even at ranges reaching close to 3000. 1 second of stealth gets you revealed. Then 1 more second of stealth into reveal.. then 1 more second of stealth into reveal.. over and over again. Then there are reveal skills given to other professions. Does any other class have that sort of debuff by NPC guards and opposing players? Nope. None. So why thieves.

 

I had a dragon hunter explain to me how he can make his Spear of Justice Reveal be 10 seconds instead of 6. As a note.. this skill puts a thief in a reveal state even before the thief has even tried to go invisible. So, now a main thief mechanism is removed before any chance to use it, and for up to 10 seconds. Is there any other class that faces the same thing? No

 

No other class has such a skill killer like thieves do. it is fully unbalanced. I only run the Shadow Refuge (48 second cooldown) and Blinding Powder (32 second cooldown). Huge cooldowns and both are useless in any battle if a single guard is present. 1 second stealth for a 48 second cooldown skill then 1 second stealth for a 32 second cooldown.

 

(2) Mount Usage costs Initiative. Does any other class have a debuff to their combat ability if the dismount... whether by purpose or by an enemy player? I lose 3 initiative points every time I dismount. That takes away from the initial contact in battle. No other class suffers a skill reduction just from using a mount. How is that fair?

 

Like I said, I do not run those near perma stealth thieves, but I would like to stealth sometimes if I really need to.

 

I would be totally fine with reveal if there was a cooldown before you can be revealed again. Spear of Justice can get a 10 reveal with a 12 second cooldown. Let the immunity to reveal be 15 seconds. 

 

This is my beef with Reveal. And that loss of initiative on dismount is ridiculous.

 

Do I need to L2P. No. I run a skill set to survive without stealthing and very rarely lose any fight, but it is still maddening that chain revealing exists.

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The reason why is because stealth is the most binary and overpowered mechanic in this game.  It lets you escape, avoid damage, get free hits, and engage to your advantage.  I've been in fights of 5v1 and lost, all because that 1 was a very skilled stealth-spamming deadeye who could pick us apart one by one.  All of these revealed debuffs and spaces is to deal with that one mechanic, and unfortunately stealth is one of the themes thief is built upon. 

 

It isn't just thieves.  There's some mesmer builds that dish out nearly as much stealth, and they're very frustrating to fight.  

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Dunno, we engies got sneak gyro and toss elixir S both on 45 sec cds, stealth with a smoke bomb combo is like playing a jazz piano solo, and we also suffer from getting revealed after as well, so to answer your question:

 

I don't think it's thief hate, it's more likely to be a balancing attempt against a very powerful boon that makes your character(+your party) invisible to other players.

 

If you want to be more effective as a stealth class, use your advantages and go assassinate people who are traveling back to a battle after dying and avoid those huge fights where you get constantly revealed.

Edited by Tiilimon.6094
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Just now, Tiilimon.6094 said:

Dunno, we engies got sneak gyro and toss elixir S both on 45 sec cds, stealth with a smoke bomb combo is like playing a jazz piano solo, and we also suffer from getting revealed after as well, so to answer your question:

 

I don't think it's thief hate, it's more likely to be a balancing attempt against a very powerful boon that makes your character(+his party) invisible to other players.

 

If you want to be more effective as a stealth class, use your advantages and go assassinate people who are traveling back to a battle after dying and avoid those huge fights where you get constantly revealed.

I appreciate your reply. Makes me feel a bit better.

 

I know the thief is a stealth class but since I do not stealth much it is not as bad. I did my build to defeat any 1 dragon hunter I come across 1v1, so my survivability is pretty decent. 

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It should always be a question "why did something happen" if you cant answer that in combat then there is something wrong. Stealth lets ppl hide there skills and you can no longer answer "why did something happen" true for healing (running away) and death.

Mind you stealth not the only effect in the game that you cant get an answer for "why did something happen" instance cast skills and very high mobility that and bad UI for what going on in combat the chat logs realty do not give you good feed back on what going on in a fight.

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2 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

(1) Chain Reveal 

In any battle where guards are present, even at ranges reaching close to 3000. 1 second of stealth gets you revealed. Then 1 more second of stealth into reveal.. then 1 more second of stealth into reveal.. over and over again. Then there are reveal skills given to other professions. Does any other class have that sort of debuff by NPC guards and opposing players? Nope. None. So why thieves.

Well, thieves not understanding thier own mechanics certainly doesnt make us love them any more.

1s of stealth does not reveal you - its 2s. 

In WvW a thief have 40% uptime on stealth while marked (2s every 5s) by towers/guards/traps. A daredevil with rifle can stealth more often without getting revealed and additionally clear it.

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1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well, thieves not understanding thier own mechanics certainly doesnt make us love them any more.

1s of stealth does not reveal you - its 2s. 

In WvW a thief have 40% uptime on stealth while marked (2s every 5s) by towers/guards/traps. A daredevil with rifle can stealth more often without getting revealed and additionally clear it.

Grow Up. 

If you cannot respond like an adult best not to say anything at all. You were not there, nor do you know how I timed it. I did the "one one thousand"  and boom.. revealed.... and I did it multiple times to see if it changed or was a static count.

 

AS it stands though. Even if your 2 second was real, it is still wrong to chain reveal a class that is made to use stealth. so 48 second cool down for 2 seconds of stealth and 32 seconds of cool down for 2 seconds of stealth. it is still bull and a huge negative against thieves which no other class has anything in the like to contend with.

 

Did you know if you are stealthed in a keep and it flips, you are automatically revealed? Tell you what.... you have your main skills put on cooldown even when you have not used them like the Dragon Hunter Spear of Justice does, or have your main skills turned off with a Keep flipping. Guaranteed you would be on the forums saying wtf, that is not right.

 

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14 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Did you know if you are stealthed in a keep and it flips, you are automatically revealed? Tell you what.... you have your main skills put on cooldown even when you have not used them like the Dragon Hunter Spear of Justice does, or have your main skills turned off with a Keep flipping. Guaranteed you would be on the forums saying wtf, that is not right.

If one of those skills would allow you to remain in the keep after it got flipped, and allow you to flip it back, with next to no reasonable counterplay, then sure, those should be put on cooldown as well.

So, what skills other than stealth/portal combo can do that?

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5 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

In any battle where guards are present, even at ranges reaching close to 3000. 1 second of stealth gets you revealed. Then 1 more second of stealth into reveal.. then 1 more second of stealth into reveal.. over and over again.

So, this effect is called Marked. I recommend reading up on it real quick. Note how it works: it'll apply Revealed after 2 seconds in stealth. Often the right way to play into it is to Reveal yourself before it's forced on you, so you can still make use of your high-value Stealth Attack. It forces you to play more aggressively but doesn't completely neuter the class. I can say this from experience because I've spent a lot of time roaming as thief and the only time it's a really big deal is when I'm really outnumbered or fighting another thief. I'll still happily take a chance at a 1v2 when Marked, though.

5 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

I had a dragon hunter explain to me how he can make his Spear of Justice Reveal be 10 seconds instead of 6. As a note.. this skill puts a thief in a reveal state even before the thief has even tried to go invisible. So, now a main thief mechanism is removed before any chance to use it, and for up to 10 seconds. Is there any other class that faces the same thing? No

This is a tougher situation. Magebane Tether and Spear of Justice are both designed to apply heavy pressure to mesmers and thieves. The easiest way to counterplay them is to dodge the Spear or avoid attacking into Full Counter. This'll get easier as you learn the other class' animations. If you do get hit with the thing, you're quite vulnerable — think of it like being at half health even when you're at full health, because the tethers set you up for absolutely brutal follow-up bursts from those classes' other abilities. (This applies to every squishy build that gets hit by one of the tethers, by the way. Not just someone using stealth.)

5 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

No other class has such a skill killer like thieves do. it is fully unbalanced. I only run the Shadow Refuge (48 second cooldown) and Blinding Powder (32 second cooldown). Huge cooldowns and both are useless in any battle if a single guard is present. 1 second stealth for a 48 second cooldown skill then 1 second stealth for a 32 second cooldown.

My advice to you is this: stop using Shadow Refuge. It has some strong applications, but overall it's not actually a very good skill, especially for personal survival. Because you are just begging for someone to drop a Target Painter on you (there's Marked again!) or use any number of push/pull skills to knock you right out of it — which will instantly Reveal you due to the skill's idiosyncratic mechanics — way before you get much value out of the skill. (The real value of Shadow Refuge is in small group situations where you can give multiple people stealth. If you just need to save a downed ally from a stomp real quick you can also do it with Blinding Powder, too, though.)

You can get far, far better defensive value out of Smoke Screen, and that skill can also grants stealth in a pinch. Or take something with an easy-to-use direct effect like Signet of Agility, Infiltrator's Signet, Roll for Initiative. Orrrrr, if none of those appeal to you… take Shadow Portal. Seriously. It's a godly WvW skill that nobody appreciates. Almost like having a second Shadowstep.

As far as stealth access overall, it's also quite possible you're not making optimal use of your kit here. Dagger 5 grants stealth. The stolen skill you get from other thieves grants stealth. Pistol 5, Rifle Kneel 5, or Smoke Screen gives you a smoke field that combos with any leap or blast finisher (including Dagger 2, Shortbow 2, Staff 5, Rifle 4, and Daredevil Bounding Dodge). Thieves have lots of little ways to get stealth from skills and traits without burning full utility slots on it.

Edited by ASP.8093
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41 minutes ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Grow Up. 

If you cannot respond like an adult best not to say anything at all. You were not there, nor do you know how I timed it. I did the "one one thousand"  and boom.. revealed.... and I did it multiple times to see if it changed or was a static count.

The fact you don't know or understand your own skills does nothing to support your complaint. Other posters have already suggested what you should read up on, maybe watch a few guide videos at the least.

Quote

AS it stands though. Even if your 2 second was real,

it is.

Quote

it is still wrong to chain reveal a class that is made to use stealth. so 48 second cool down for 2 seconds of stealth and 32 seconds of cool down for 2 seconds of stealth. it is still bull and a huge negative against thieves which no other class has anything in the like to contend with.

As explained, stealth is pretty binary. Thief suffers from deadeyes ability to remove reveal (which essentially has to get balanced around somewhat, to the detriment of non DE builds and other stealth classes) but also benefits from being able to remove reveal, which no other stealth class can.

If you are having issues with stealth, learn to utilize the other strengths the class has, in this case high mobility and evasion and most importantly: read up on what and how exactly stealth is countered!

Quote

 

Did you know if you are stealthed in a keep and it flips, you are automatically revealed? Tell you what.... you have your main skills put on cooldown even when you have not used them like the Dragon Hunter Spear of Justice does, or have your main skills turned off with a Keep flipping. Guaranteed you would be on the forums saying wtf, that is not right.

 

You seem to be under the impression that most players responding have as little understanding of the game (their class) as you. You are wrong.

Yes, some of us know which sources of reveal there are and that includes the flipping of keeps. Yet good thiefs still manage to stay inside the objective if they so desire forcing heavy commitment to flush them out. Being a thief is no freebee option to flip back an objective, especially with shadow portal at their disposal.

Sorry but your entire complaint reads as: I know little of my class, please nerf other classes so they can not counter me while I press buttons.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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You only need to get Stealth Attacks off, and not all of the time since they're hardly the best option too often anyway. Then you need stealth to mask direction or rounding corners or whatever while map traveling. Set up your approach for an opener, or maintain in a fight until you see the opening to Stealth then Stealth Attack, but either way you gotta be deliberate and opportunistic instead of sustained with anything that will land reveal on you so you're not bunching up your internal timers. It sounds like you're upset that you can't stealth at will the entire fight, and that's just not realistic unless we're including problematic build/kit combos that we shouldn't be calibrating our selves off of. 

Edited by kash.9213
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13 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

For the record I do not run one of those near perma stealth thieves. I spend most of my fight time visible but sometimes I would like to to use the stealth mechanic.

That's the problem.  Can't kill one of said thieves without these mechanics, so they exist.

And part of the skill of the class is learning how to survive with it even when denied access.

I'd rather it be post-evade CC or immob instead like it used to be, but unfortunately they made thief very safe and harder to punish with DrD.

It mostly is a L2P problem if you're playing a remotely-optimal build.  The tools are there.

If you don't have an optimal build, the tools aren't there, and it's the fault of the class being balanced based on it having those tools on a few select builds which are exploitative.

 

Welcome to thief.  Play the best strategy where any difficulty is L2P, or reroll.

Edited by DeceiverX.8361
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9 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The fact you don't know or understand your own skills does nothing to support your complaint. Other posters have already suggested what you should read up on, maybe watch a few guide videos at the least.

it is.

As explained, stealth is pretty binary. Thief suffers from deadeyes ability to remove reveal (which essentially has to get balanced around somewhat, to the detriment of non DE builds and other stealth classes) but also benefits from being able to remove reveal, which no other stealth class can.

If you are having issues with stealth, learn to utilize the other strengths the class has, in this case high mobility and evasion and most importantly: read up on what and how exactly stealth is countered!

You seem to be under the impression that most players responding have as little understanding of the game (their class) as you. You are wrong.

Yes, some of us know which sources of reveal there are and that includes the flipping of keeps. Yet good thiefs still manage to stay inside the objective if they so desire forcing heavy commitment to flush them out. Being a thief is no freebee option to flip back an objective, especially with shadow portal at their disposal.

Sorry but your entire complaint reads as: I know little of my class, please nerf other classes so they can not counter me while I press buttons.

Too Funny. 

Childish response of L2P. Did you even understand any of what I was writing?  I said I was ok with reveal as long as their was a balance. Like the Spear of Justice cooldown is 12 seconds. Make it 15 seconds before being eligible for reveal again. If i can be revealed for 6 seconds after a 15 second immunity, it is not so bad.

 

(1) I am being revealed when I am not even close to a camp or tower. It just happened again.  WvW Border Lands. The Veteran Guard outside the wall at Bluevale (The camp was still had 3 minutes of RI)  is dead. I am outside that wall and off to the side which removes me from line of sight enemy camp. Coming over the hill from BlueBriar is one of those Necros with all the minions. I stealth, and almost instantly I am revealed. Why? There was nothing even remotely in the vicinity that should be able to reveal me. The guard is dead already for a couple of seconds.

 

This is the stuff I am not happy with. Being revealed when I should not be revealed. 

 

(2) I was at the very corner North West Wall of StoneMist (we owned it.) There was a warrior I had been fighting when I killed the Veteran guard on the bridge. He was within 900 game meters from the bridge still. I used blinding powder and was again, almost instantly revealed. Have you ever been in WvW? That is a huge distance. But I was revealed right outside of the wall of our own Castle.

 

This is what I am angry about.

 

As for the  L2P comment that I expected. Did you ever Solo Stone Mist Castle? I did. I actually was the first person in the world to do it, before I initially quit years back. It isn't such a big deal now, but years ago back when people were having difficulty trying to do it with a party of three I did it with one. And Yes. I literally was the first person in the world to do it. Here is what I had recorded that second time. I was doing it then realized I should record it, which is why it does not start at the beginning.

 

So Yah. I do know how to play. 

 

That fight I had with some of the enemy zerg was so much fun, but with reveal being so disgustingly over powered, I would have been revealed and killed in seconds.

 

Not only did I do it once but I was on my second time doing it when an enemy blob interrupted me. 

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17 minutes ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

That's the problem.  Can't kill one of said thieves without these mechanics, so they exist.

And part of the skill of the class is learning how to survive with it even when denied access.

I'd rather it be post-evade CC or immob instead like it used to be, but unfortunately they made thief very safe and harder to punish with DrD.

It mostly is a L2P problem if you're playing a remotely-optimal build.  The tools are there.

If you don't have an optimal build, the tools aren't there, and it's the fault of the class being balanced based on it having those tools on a few select builds which are exploitative.

 

Welcome to thief.  Play the best strategy where any difficulty is L2P, or reroll.

I do not play that sort of thief. I like to run into enemy zergs visible and fighting. 

For the L2P comment.

 

By your standard, then everyone who cannot kill one of those thieves should L2P.  1v1 they cannot kill me. Yesterday I fought 2 of them. I downed one but had to leave the fight because I couldn't get a stomp in before the revive.

 

But 1v1 I win 100% of the time. Mostly they run away but it is still a win. If I have 100% win rate against those thieves. How come you do not? L2P maybe. 

 

L2P is a purely troll response. The heading of my post actually read as  "What am I Missing"?

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load up on blinds and interrupts maybe. If you trait or slot both to have secondary offensive mods then you might be able to inundate them with every attempt the same way they can hound all of your attempts with reveal. Whatever they're revealing you with is taking a slot from something else they might want instead now that the pace is changed. 

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14 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

The reason why is because stealth is the most binary and overpowered mechanic in this game.  It lets you escape, avoid damage, get free hits, and engage to your advantage.  I've been in fights of 5v1 and lost, all because that 1 was a very skilled stealth-spamming deadeye who could pick us apart one by one.  All of these revealed debuffs and spaces is to deal with that one mechanic, and unfortunately stealth is one of the themes thief is built upon. 

 

It isn't just thieves.  There's some mesmer builds that dish out nearly as much stealth, and they're very frustrating to fight.  

If you are outplayed it's not thief fault

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3 hours ago, Kolly.9872 said:

If you are outplayed it's not thief fault

That's the problem: stealth removes the ability to outplay someone.  You can't see them coming, what they're doing, or how they're moving.  Usually I discover I'm fighting a thief/scrapper/mirage when they appear out of nowhere and immediately begin their burst rotation.  

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6 minutes ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

That's the problem: stealth removes the ability to outplay someone.  You can't see them coming, what they're doing, or how they're moving.  Usually I discover I'm fighting a thief/scrapper/mirage when they appear out of nowhere and immediately begin their burst rotation.  

You can do so with just stealth.  You can't do so with stealth AND Daredevil.

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4 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

I do not play that sort of thief. I like to run into enemy zergs visible and fighting. 

For the L2P comment.

 

By your standard, then everyone who cannot kill one of those thieves should L2P.  1v1 they cannot kill me. Yesterday I fought 2 of them. I downed one but had to leave the fight because I couldn't get a stomp in before the revive.

 

But 1v1 I win 100% of the time. Mostly they run away but it is still a win. If I have 100% win rate against those thieves. How come you do not? L2P maybe. 

 

L2P is a purely troll response. The heading of my post actually read as  "What am I Missing"?

 

I'm really confused.  Your OP is about how you get slammed when someone reveals you, despite absolutely running a high-stealth build.  And please, do not even try convincing me running SR+BP is a "low stealth" build lol.

Thief is balanced around that because without these counters thanks to sustained stealth on SA D/P DrD, the class is OP.  Full stop.

 

If you don't like it, reroll, because ANet seems hellbent on keeping these trash mechanics that require the counters in the first place; I.E. sustained stealth builds.

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19 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

Do I need to L2P. No. I run a skill set to survive without stealthing and very rarely lose any fight, but it is still maddening that chain revealing exists.

As chain stealthing (more than 3 seconds, so your encounter can never predict your actions - this is a HUGE advantage for you) exists... If your build is one dimensional (relies one one mechanic to be effective), then you will inevitably run into hard counters. Personally I don't like a game design philosophy of hard counters, but that's how ANet handles the game.

Other examples:

If you build for high dps instead of a mix of damage and condi cleanses, that weakness spamming core necro will ruin your day.

If you build for high mobility instead of damage multipliers, that healbrand/-scrapper will outsustain you without getting a sweat.

[...]

Every class has these issues. A necro can focus on boon corrupts and wreck every guardian in seconds while being completely helpless against a condi thief.

Edited by KrHome.1920
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1 hour ago, Zacchary.6183 said:

Not completely. A little bit of understanding thief tactics and some situational awareness goes a long way.

I know several tactics:

#1: Time dodges and block skills every 2 or 3 seconds for when they go out of stealth.

#2: Run away and force the invisible player into a cone behind you.

#3: Flail in the position and direction the invisible player was moving before they vanished.

#4: Run to a position of more secure defense.

There's a problem with all of that, though: experienced thieves and mesmers know about these tactics, too.  If you look at the utility bar of either in PVP/WvW, you'll notice that nearly all of their utilities are either stealth, or movement skills.  This is done specifically to make them unpredictable.  They hide behind an obstacle or use another invisible skill to bait the block/dodge.  They don't chase you when you move into a position of power.  They juke and dive, specifically to confound their movement.  They'll purposefully avoid the cone directly behind you while chasing you.  Etc. and so on.  No matter what tactic you pull, an invisible foe has the advantage because they can see what you're doing, and you can't see what they're doing.  

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15 hours ago, Jitters.9401 said:

(2) I was at the very corner North West Wall of StoneMist (we owned it.) There was a warrior I had been fighting when I killed the Veteran guard on the bridge. 

 

That Veteran guard is a sentry who applies Marked. It has a duration but range doesn't matter. That is most likely what was revealing you.

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Stealth is an incredibly unfair and unfun mechanic to play against. Any negative sentiment towards builds relying on it are absolutely justified. However, this isn't exclusive to Thief, as, for example, Trapper Rune Dragon Hunters are equally as disgusting as Stealth-humping Thieves.

I'd really welcome for Arenanet to rework parts of Thief and strongly diminish is needlessly high reliance (and access) of stealth.

Also, Stealth is not the main mechanic of Thief. Steal is its main mechanic.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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11 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I know several tactics:

#1: Time dodges and block skills every 2 or 3 seconds for when they go out of stealth.

#2: Run away and force the invisible player into a cone behind you.

#3: Flail in the position and direction the invisible player was moving before they vanished.

#4: Run to a position of more secure defense.

There's a problem with all of that, though: experienced thieves and mesmers know about these tactics, too.  If you look at the utility bar of either in PVP/WvW, you'll notice that nearly all of their utilities are either stealth, or movement skills.  This is done specifically to make them unpredictable.  They hide behind an obstacle or use another invisible skill to bait the block/dodge.  They don't chase you when you move into a position of power.  They juke and dive, specifically to confound their movement.  They'll purposefully avoid the cone directly behind you while chasing you.  Etc. and so on.  No matter what tactic you pull, an invisible foe has the advantage because they can see what you're doing, and you can't see what they're doing.  

I do all of that out of Stealth. I Stealth so I don't have to do all that and I can bounce or try a Stealth Attack.

#5: Control skills and utilities. Set Pan Camera speed to max and always scan the area when you're moving or still and if you feel that Stealth-out blur in your peripheral, try to keep them locked up with pulls and everything else or make them have to spend time and resources on condi clears or whatever. I keep Scorpion Wire and Pitfall on my bar and slot for Health steals on Interrupt, not just for Stealthed players, but for anyone who can set up and mask a quick defense rip and burst on me. I'm not one of the better players, so I try to build to survive a trip across a map. I know as a thief though, when I get an opening on someone, it sucks to lose a lot of Health in a burst and get Controlled suddenly. Resources on some of the better skills to bounce with have to be spent on the way in and on the way out. 

I'm not in favor of easily sustained stealth by the way, I think the one or two problematic build and kit options need to be addressed, but include addressing the carpet nerfed aspects over time of the rest of the class. 

Edited by kash.9213
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