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I simply cannot take it anymore


SNap.2087

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1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Yet I did raids off just fine today without anyone dropping and so did many others. I PUG T4 fractals daily as well as helping any groups at boss to make use of my Fractal title. Maybe try playing during primetime. Using GW2RA which is a training discord is not the same thing and since the complaint is mainly about fractals I don't even see the point in talking about GW2RA.

Mesmer does not even apply might outside of alac mirage, that's just a falsehood. Alac mirage generally isn't run outside of SH/TL generally and especially not in fractals. Berserker warrior doesn't supply might whatsoever unless running tactics and the ramp time is high for that.

You act as though guardian has many reflects but it's literally just tome on 60+ cooldown and wall of reflection which generally isn't run outside Matthias. That's why people ask for feedback mirage.

Scourge portal (sand swell) is exclusively used on QTP kiting, it is extremely short range. To compare it to mesmer or thief portal is laughable when those have 5000 range. You wouldn't even be able to portal on Swampland fractal.

Druids are only able to solo heal if they're in their own sub and if the heal demand is low. Tempest heals more actually and isn't reliant on celestial avatar.

Classes that self provide fury generally don't have 100% uptime other than on guardians , among other things you are forgetting.

Eles can push and pull as well, see Air staff 3 (gust), tidal surge on warhorn, cyclone on warhorn,  updraft on offhand dagger, launch on lightning hammer, among other things.

Actually it's usually thief or scourge for Q1 kite but whatever. Soothing mist on elementalist is high healing output if you spec for it and people run tempest kite on Dhuum.

QtP (which you insist is necessary to kite on despite 7/10 roles not being a kite) happens to be large hitbox so suggesting you need to kite on ele when it is a favorable fight is kind of odd.

Also epidemic gets people killed on Sloth quite often, you are better off with CPC and cleave. That's why for the longest time the recommended comps ran weavers and holosmith, but you'll probably pretend that never happened.

I also never said I was an authority on the matter (but I do help maintain the article linked by GW2RA by the way), however it's blantant misinformation to say ele doesn't have boons or that is the main problem. You are welcome to not run ele whatsoever in raids and then offer an opinion on it meanwhile I've run it quite often and I have a guildmate that runs it every week on pretty much every boss... That's also the reason why I mentioned Veigar above is because I see them pretty much on ele all the time. All those things you're mentioning are fluff that isn't even part of typical LFG listings other than kite (hand kite/pillar/pylon), reflect on Matt, push on SH/VG, maybe bubble on CA CM/ Adina (which isn't necessary to beat it). In fractals your assessment doesn't present the real picture of LFG because people look for HB + alac ren or quick+alac, DPS is flexible but used to be BS/DPS before condi meta. The only thing you are possibly correct on is that ele is not easier to play, but it was never advertised as an easy to play class, especially weaver.

I have to agree with you here. Ele isn't in such a bad spot. For starters Ele can bring AMAZING immobilize if needed. Overload earth, aftershock, signet and you can even use arcane skills which provide amazing immob if traited. the utility is definitely there.

Furthermore, it IS possible to do QtP Pylon kite as elementalist. I did it as celestial weaver, dealt decent enough dps and had no problem with sustain and also no problem with the orb mechanic (lightning flash, burning retreat and mistform).
Handkite at deimos, also perfectly possible as tempest
Samarog? You can be the pusher utilizing immob plus lightning hammer.
The utility is definitely there.
I'm solohealing and tanking simultaneously as a full celestial tempest while also doing all the mechanics a druid does.
Aside from ten man healing I provide permanent Fury, Swiftness, Regen, Vigor, Might and protection and that way more reliable than a druid does.
Plus, Rebound is a thing. Tempest is the only profession that can prevent an entire raidwipe with just 1 button which can also be used to ignore mechanics (the amalgamates clap for example, or a dps can just stay at dhuum since rebound will prevent the wipe)
Giving tempest quickness/alacrity would be way too much for the utility it provides.
Many people neglect that the ele has in fact an offensive buff called static charge which is applied to your group after every air overload. Combined with fresh air it does in fact boost your subgroups dps by a fair margin.

 

Furthermore, catalyst will be pretty amazing at giving quickness. I played with 100% boon duration at beta and could provide 10man quickness as a single quickness giver. Plus, the sphere mechanic gives us the privilege to be the only class providing perma quickness at range. However i can agree that stability could be added. My idea would be to enable the trait staunch auras to give your party members stability as well when they got an aura from you.

 

Weaver does look a little bad since it is only a pure dps giver, however it is perfectly playable in PvE and pretty much so in PvP/WvW. I could only imagine to maybe give the weaver the opportunity to provide alacrity to your squad by changin the dual abilities of the staff into a more supportive ones. So you could be a weavalac with staff. Idk sounds pretty cool xD.

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41 minutes ago, Integrity.2061 said:

I have to agree with you here. Ele isn't in such a bad spot. For starters Ele can bring AMAZING immobilize if needed. Overload earth, aftershock, signet and you can even use arcane skills which provide amazing immob if traited. the utility is definitely there.

Furthermore, it IS possible to do QtP Pylon kite as elementalist. I did it as celestial weaver, dealt decent enough dps and had no problem with sustain and also no problem with the orb mechanic (lightning flash, burning retreat and mistform).
Handkite at deimos, also perfectly possible as tempest
Samarog? You can be the pusher utilizing immob plus lightning hammer.
The utility is definitely there.
I'm solohealing and tanking simultaneously as a full celestial tempest while also doing all the mechanics a druid does.
Aside from ten man healing I provide permanent Fury, Swiftness, Regen, Vigor, Might and protection and that way more reliable than a druid does.
Plus, Rebound is a thing. Tempest is the only profession that can prevent an entire raidwipe with just 1 button which can also be used to ignore mechanics (the amalgamates clap for example, or a dps can just stay at dhuum since rebound will prevent the wipe)
Giving tempest quickness/alacrity would be way too much for the utility it provides.
Many people neglect that the ele has in fact an offensive buff called static charge which is applied to your group after every air overload. Combined with fresh air it does in fact boost your subgroups dps by a fair margin.

 

Furthermore, catalyst will be pretty amazing at giving quickness. I played with 100% boon duration at beta and could provide 10man quickness as a single quickness giver. Plus, the sphere mechanic gives us the privilege to be the only class providing perma quickness at range. However i can agree that stability could be added. My idea would be to enable the trait staunch auras to give your party members stability as well when they got an aura from you.

 

Weaver does look a little bad since it is only a pure dps giver, however it is perfectly playable in PvE and pretty much so in PvP/WvW. I could only imagine to maybe give the weaver the opportunity to provide alacrity to your squad by changin the dual abilities of the staff into a more supportive ones. So you could be a weavalac with staff. Idk sounds pretty cool xD.

I really think that you are overestimating ele's capabilities, though that is not to say that it's not usually underrated a whole lot by some people. 

Sure, tempest is fine and the pug raid community are simply not willing to accept that they could use the win rate boost. They'd rather make things harder, so then they can gatekeep with more KP, and even that doesn't help as much as easier comps would.

However, I have to say that the adaptability of core ele, weaver and even catalyst is lackluster. Catalyst has some real limitations with how it provides boons, and has little meaningful utility except for the boons. However, the issues with the spec design have been discussed ad nauseum at this point, so I will focus on weaver and core.

As you said, weaver lacks utility but is playable. Everything is playable so that is rather moot really. You are risking way more for less reward than anyone else and have zero advantages really. It's dps stripped down to dps and absolutely nothing else, while having nothing to show for it. Other dpsers are doing the same damage while giving utility, being more survivable, having some range, and way larger cleave to boot. It doesn't necessarily need alacrity though. We can't give this out to every single spec and act like that means something, and weaver doesn't fit the alac theme anyway. Weaver needs way more basic and fundamental additions to get to a good level. 

Weaver needs access to basic ranged options on sword, so that you are not stuck waiting when you get anti melee mechanics. It needs dps that is considerably higher than hybrid specs, so that its role as a pure dps is respected. Weaver also needs more self-sufficiency. This means that they can add selfish boons on every dual attack and perhaps a bit more personal barrier. Things like this would make weaver much better, while maintaining its identity. Some more utility skills that provide some utility to the group would also be okay. After all, otherwise selfish dps specs can tap into their core utilities to help their group sometimes. Like soulbeast with spirits, or dragonhunter with shouts, especially stand your ground. 

This is where the next issue comes in. Core ele basically has barely any utility in its utility skills. This means that the elite spec has to add this entire toolkit. Tempest is only good support because it added shouts. If it didn't there would be nothing to work with from core. Trying to make a pure support catalyst is a nightmare, because it gives augments, and then you see that support options from core utilities are not meaningful. Core ele needs a hell of a lot of work in many aspects at this point. It needs better utility options, soft reworks for staff and scepter, and many trait changes, especially in earth. It has been neglected for so many years now, while other classes got their own reworks. It's time for ele to get this treatment. It's overdue by years at this point.

Edited by Ganathar.4956
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Tempest is "so bad" that it was used for sub 2 hour full clear.


The only notable replacement of tempest was in W5 on SH where a druid was used for pushing the TD.

There's also the power might tempest used in a recent no-heal CA clear:



So that about settles the "cannot play ele in raids" bit.

Edited by Infusion.7149
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On 12/22/2021 at 11:02 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

Tempest is "so bad" that it was used for sub 2 hour full clear.


The only notable replacement of tempest was in W5 on SH where a druid was used for pushing the TD.

There's also the power might tempest used in a recent no-heal CA clear:



So that about settles the "cannot play ele in raids" bit.

Its funny how I do not not see the usual crowd trying to damage control eles right now lol.

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51 minutes ago, Ryou.2398 said:

Its funny how I do not not see the usual crowd trying to damage control eles right now lol.

If tempest didn't have the variance it did then it would be borderline OP in all power scenarios when you have quickness (which catalyst will provide sufficiently after jade sphere changed so you don't need to camp air) as a heal replacement. Cele firebrand and seraph firebrand both are condi which has a slightly higher ramp time and don't heal 10 people plus on KC/VG there is a +35% power bonus.

Offheal power boon (~600 heal power) tempest is ~20-22K DPS on large hitbox already
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJsI6u5swsk
With this tempest setup you not only provide perma might, fury to 10 players but also make sure to cap protection/regen for your sub, extend boons and do some dps.

Build Creator listed the following as ideal for this setup: Slothasor, KC, Samarog, Deimos, CA, Adina without a druid

From last year, offheal condi boon tempest ~22K on large hitbox (~900 healpower) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXOwTIS--fY
 

Spoiler

- Permanent 25 Might for the squad via Heat Sync
- 70% Protection uptime for the squad (if people stay inside Earth Overload).
- 100% Regen/Vigor uptime for the party, 70% uptime for the squad.

- Permanent Fury uptime for the squad if there is a Fury source in your party (or Battle Standard).
- 75% Soothing Mist uptime for the party
- Around 11% boon extension for the squad via Sand Squall. - Lots of auras (make your Condi BS happy).
- Strong sustained healing via 900 Healing power, Water traitline, Elemental Bastion and Wash The Pain Away.


Damage split is 50% burning and 12% bleeding for this variant.

That doesn't even count scenarios where tempest is able to be used as DPS due to hitbox size currently such as QtP/KC/Cairn/etc and it does decently in 98CM on condi as shown here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWaZZVa7kjI

Heal tempest is overshadowed right now in fractals because healing is hit by 70% when agony triggers and celestial and seraph firebrand pull similar DPS (20-24K) while making use of the 100% condition damage bonus of exposed present.

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1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

If tempest didn't have the variance it did then it would be borderline OP in all power scenarios when you have quickness (which catalyst will provide sufficiently after jade sphere changed so you don't need to camp air) as a heal replacement. Cele firebrand and seraph firebrand both are condi which has a slightly higher ramp time and don't heal 10 people plus on KC/VG there is a +35% power bonus.

Offheal power boon (~600 heal power) tempest is ~20-22K DPS on large hitbox already
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJsI6u5swsk
With this tempest setup you not only provide perma might, fury to 10 players but also make sure to cap protection/regen for your sub, extend boons and do some dps.

Build Creator listed the following as ideal for this setup: Slothasor, KC, Samarog, Deimos, CA, Adina without a druid

From last year, offheal condi boon tempest ~22K on large hitbox (~900 healpower) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXOwTIS--fY
 

  Reveal hidden contents

- Permanent 25 Might for the squad via Heat Sync
- 70% Protection uptime for the squad (if people stay inside Earth Overload).
- 100% Regen/Vigor uptime for the party, 70% uptime for the squad.

- Permanent Fury uptime for the squad if there is a Fury source in your party (or Battle Standard).
- 75% Soothing Mist uptime for the party
- Around 11% boon extension for the squad via Sand Squall. - Lots of auras (make your Condi BS happy).
- Strong sustained healing via 900 Healing power, Water traitline, Elemental Bastion and Wash The Pain Away.


Damage split is 50% burning and 12% bleeding for this variant.

That doesn't even count scenarios where tempest is able to be used as DPS due to hitbox size currently such as QtP/KC/Cairn/etc and it does decently in 98CM on condi as shown here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWaZZVa7kjI

Heal tempest is overshadowed right now in fractals because healing is hit by 70% when agony triggers and celestial and seraph firebrand pull similar DPS (20-24K) while making use of the 100% condition damage bonus of exposed present.

Interesting.

Edited by Ryou.2398
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