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This game isn't very new player friendly.


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7 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It's still less money than most MMO players will end up spending on FF XIV in a year, period,. unless they stop playing.

Again you just gave Arenanet $79 dollars for their newest expansion as a new player to get caught up on the story to play said new expansion.  You got to level 80 and went into HoT and got confused because you didn't have said content.  How is it their fault?  And why should they be punished monetarily?

I can spend $60 on FFXIV and get a complete story with only adding maybe $30 more on my sub fee and again that's being conservative with the amount.  It's still like what 50 cents a day.

 

I don't care how much it costs.  I care that it does cost.  If it's so integral to that story it should be free.  I'd be more willing to buy season 4 and Icebrood if they showed me some good faith.  But they'd rather flip us over and shake the change out.

I'm not arguing to pay structures.  I'm arguing the integrity.

Edited by PMoneyMobileRobot.4630
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I've played GW2 a long while, but I have to admit I do prefer FFXIV and play that more religiously as of the past few years. I decided to bring my significant other over to GW2 to fill some time befor

I don't see a problem with paying for living world. In other games you pay for game time. Once that time is up, it's up and you can't play anymore. In GW2 you pay for the content patches (if

So then you agree, that the story is disjointed unless you shell out the money to be able to play the story the way it was intended, in a game where the story is the base line for the content being de

8 minutes ago, PMoneyMobileRobot.4630 said:

Again you just gave Arenanet $79 dollars for their newest expansion as a new player to get caught up on the story to play said new expansion.  You got to level 80 and went into HoT and got confused because you didn't have said content.  How is it their fault?  And why should they be punished monetarily?

I can spend $60 on FFXIV and get a complete story with only adding maybe $30 more on my sub fee and again that's being conservative with the amount.  It's still like what 50 cents a day.

 

I don't care how much it costs.  I care that it does cost.  If it's so integral to that story it should be free.  I'd be more willing to buy season 4 and Icebrood if they showed me some good faith.  But they'd rather flip us over and shake the change out.

I'm not arguing to pay structures.  I'm arguing the integrity.

Nope, stories shouldn't be free. That's ridiculous. What it should be is clearly labelled or sold as a package. But free, that's not really an option to a game without a sub.  If it had a sub it could be free.

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I'm curious... just how quickly are new players getting to Living Story? When I got my ex into the game, we spent the better part of two months completing core content: Personal Story, Core Tyria Map Completion, some Dungeons / Fractals, a bit of WvW, etc. It was at that point she bought the gems to unlock Living World Season 2.

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10 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Nope, stories shouldn't be free. That's ridiculous. What it should be is clearly labelled or sold as a package. But free, that's not really an option to a game without a sub.  If it had a sub it could be free.

They're not free if you add them into the purchase of the content they prop up.  You charge the player for them when they buy your expansion.  It's not rocket surgery and heck it's not even brain science.

You're confusing me for someone who wants something for nothing.  I gave them money and I continue to.  I just want content that props other content up to be included in said content.  And I don't think that is a tall ask.  Again it's good faith.

I don't have to do that with other games to understand what is going on.

The more I play this game the more I see it's flaws.  And I don't want to do that.  I just want to turn my brain off and unlock mounts and progress my story.

 

It's crazy that I can dump $180 into a subscription game over the course of a year and not feel as nicked and dimmed as I can here in a month.  It's disgusting.

Edited by PMoneyMobileRobot.4630
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6 minutes ago, PMoneyMobileRobot.4630 said:

They're not free if you add them into the purchase of the content they prop up.  You charge the player for them when they buy your expansion.  It's not rocket surgery and heck it's not even brain science.

You're confusing me for someone who wants something for nothing.  I gave them money and I continue to.  I just want content that props other content up to be included I said content.  And I don't think that is a tall ask.  Again it's good faith.

I don't have to do that with other games to understand what is going on.

The more I play this game the more I see it's flaws.  And I don't want to do that.  I just want to turn my brain off and unlock mounts and progress my story.

 

It's crazy that I can dump $180 into a subscription game and not feel as nicked and dimmed as I can here.  It's disgusting.

So you want Anet to charge 20 dollar core( to have season two bundled into free to play),  20 dollar hot+ season 3, 45 dollar pof, season 4, icebrood saga.

And in addition 30 dollar -EoD.

Im sure Anet would be happy to get 115 dollars from new players but Im not sure new players would be happy with it.

Edit

I mean I agree they should be more upfront about that living world seasons have to be purchased aswell as expansions but its not wrong to charge for them.

Edited by Linken.6345
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2 minutes ago, Shining One.1635 said:

I'm curious... just how quickly are new players getting to Living Story? When I got my ex into the game, we spent the better part of two months completing core content: Personal Story, Core Tyria Map Completion, some Dungeons / Fractals, a bit of WvW, etc. It was at that point she bought the gems to unlock Living World Season 2.

For me, I think it took a little less than a month, but that's because I'm basically solo PVE only, and leveled through my character's racial zones and followed the personal story up through Orr. My first dungeon attempt felt awful and it kinda put me off from trying any of the others, and I heard the feature was abandoned anyway so I didn't have much of a push to go do the ones I outleveled. I don't remember how much gold I had but it was nowhere near enough to buy LW2, so I passed on it (I assumed seeing the state of Silverwastes was enough). Bummed around for a few days afterward while deciding if I wanted to get the expansions or not, but the Twitch discount special was going to expire so I didn't have the time to just farm up gold unless I wanted to spend more real money later. I was lucky in that I happened to start my first character during Return to LW4: chapter 2 onward, though.

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10 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

So you want Anet to charge 20 dollar core( to have season two bundled into free to play),  20 dollar hot+ season 3, 45 dollar pof, season 4, icebrood saga.

And in addition 30 dollar -EoD.

Im sure Anet would be happy to get 115 dollars from new players but Im not sure new players would be happy with it.

Edit

I mean I agree they should be more upfront about that living world seasons have to be purchased aswell as expansions but its not wrong to charge for them.

It is when a purchase is incomplete without them.

If I buy HoT I'm missing out on what happened in between unless I pay more money and god forbid if I boosted into PoF for the mount, but that's a whole other issue entirely.

Point being if I need it to make the content I purchase make sense it's bad.

It's like paying for a movie and getting there a half an hour late.  You wouldn't do that.

Edited by PMoneyMobileRobot.4630
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35 minutes ago, PMoneyMobileRobot.4630 said:

Again you just gave Arenanet $79 dollars for their newest expansion as a new player to get caught up on the story to play said new expansion.  You got to level 80 and went into HoT and got confused because you didn't have said content.  How is it their fault?  And why should they be punished monetarily?

I can spend $60 on FFXIV and get a complete story with only adding maybe $30 more on my sub fee and again that's being conservative with the amount.  It's still like what 50 cents a day.

 

I don't care how much it costs.  I care that it does cost.  If it's so integral to that story it should be free.  I'd be more willing to buy season 4 and Icebrood if they showed me some good faith.  But they'd rather flip us over and shake the change out.

I'm not arguing to pay structures.  I'm arguing the integrity.

If someone spent 79 bucks for the xpac, they get 4,000 gems with it. I just priced the episodes and it comes out to 4,160 gems.

 

You’re not arguing anything. This company doesn’t charge a monthly fee. Those stories are outside of Xpacs so you didn’t log in you don’t get it free. Too bad. This company also allows players to exchange gold for gems to get free stuff over time.
 

Get out of here with that integrity stuff, you don’t know what it costs to run a business, or pay employee, or understand the thousands of other costs associated, yet complain about a few bucks…

 

Seriously, if a minor amount of money for a product is an issue, then someone should stop wasting time with online entertainment. 

 

This is yet another “gimme free stuff internet business company” thread. 

Edited by Swagger.1459
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1 hour ago, PMoneyMobileRobot.4630 said:

They're not free if you add them into the purchase of the content they prop up.  You charge the player for them when they buy your expansion.  It's not rocket surgery and heck it's not even brain science.

You're confusing me for someone who wants something for nothing.  I gave them money and I continue to.  I just want content that props other content up to be included in said content.  And I don't think that is a tall ask.  Again it's good faith.

I don't have to do that with other games to understand what is going on.

The more I play this game the more I see it's flaws.  And I don't want to do that.  I just want to turn my brain off and unlock mounts and progress my story.

 

It's crazy that I can dump $180 into a subscription game over the course of a year and not feel as nicked and dimmed as I can here in a month.  It's disgusting.

That's fine. That's why different games appeal to different people. This game appeals to me. Final Fantasy XIV didn't appeal to me, but I'm happy you like it.

You don't have to play other games to understand what's going on, but that's irrelevant, since a percentage of people who start playing this game like it and find it reasonable. The ONLY problem I see is not having a single package with everything in it, from the start, or an explanation up front of what the living story is.


You have a different opinion and that's fine.  I found Final Fantasy XIV unplayable for my play style and what I'm looking for in a game. I don't call it disgusting. I call it a game not for me. I'm sure it's great for a lot of people. And this game is great for me.

 

Some people will be put off having to spend money and some people won't. Some people will be put off by a sub fee and some people won't. Some people will happily grind gold so they don't have to pay for the cash shop and think they're getting over (I know people who do this).  At the end of the day different stuff appeals to different people and if you're digusted by this game, that's okay. Plenty of people are happily playing this game.


 

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ArenaNet makes expansions cheap, but people have to buy Living World - people complain

If ArenaNet were to make each expansion 60 euros, but include Living World in it - people would complain

If ArenaNet were to keep the cheap expansion price, but make it subscription based - people would complain (Guild Wars has always been buy to play, no monthly fees and many people play it because of that)

Let's not forget that most other games don't let you freely swap between gold and store currency, like Guild Wars 2 does, it can't even become cheaper than that. And again if ArenaNet took out this option and made everything be obtainable with gems only, but instead of that they would put all Living World Episodes in the game....what would happen? People would complain.

So in the end what's the solution here? Feels to me like people who complain about these kind of things don't really like the game and are trying to make ArenaNet seem like the bad guys, or just want to get everything instantly and for free.

Cheap game + all Living World included is not possible, you're asking for too much if that's what you want.

Edited by Crono.4197
small typo
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10 minutes ago, Crono.4197 said:

ArenaNet makes expansions cheap, but people have to buy Living World - people complain

If ArenaNet were to make each expansion 60 euros, but include Living World in it - people would complain

If ArenaNet were to keep the cheap expansion price, but make it subscription based - people would complain (Guild Wars has always been buy to play, no monthly fees and many people play it because of that)

Let's not forget that most other games don't let you freely swap between gold and store currency, like Guild Wars 2 does, it can't even become cheaper than that. And again if ArenaNet took out this option and made everything be obtanainble with gems only, but instead of that they would put all Living World Episodes in the game....what would happen? People would complain.

So in the end what's the solution here? Feels to me like people who complain about these kind of things don't really like the game and are trying to make ArenaNet seem like the bad guys, or just want to get everything instantly and for free.

Cheap game + all Living World included is not possible, you're asking for too much if that's what you want.

Doesn't matter if all of here complain, we're all not new players. It's hard to get your friend interested in this game, let alone commit to it. I can't be the only one and judging by this post I definitely am not. I got my friend in and he got the HoT+PoF bundle. A big character death meant nothing for him but he knew it meant something for me but there's just nothing, no new time prepared for new players.

 

It's not about money, it's as Megamind puts it: PRESENTATION! It's terrible. We can go back and forth on whats worth what  but regardless, if the experience you come into is from 2012 and you're told trust me 2015+ is amazing it's just not fair, they have nothing. No introduction. When they trust you they get told watch a movie, buy 7 year old dlc and then keep going.

 

Anet aren't bad people but half of them got fired and the industry looking in needs a reason to come in, especially when all the stuff with WoW has made people start looking. FFXIV right now is apparently more profitable than any FF game, let alone any MMO. You don't have to copy them whole sale but they've been doing a lot right.

 

It doesn't matter how you feel, or how  I feel. The next million players might but if you ignore the issues just because you love a company that brought you this game well.

 

They won't exist anymore.

Edited by Kalocin.5982
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11 minutes ago, Crono.4197 said:

ArenaNet makes expansions cheap, but people have to buy Living World - people complain

Most of us didn't buy the Living World stuff, though. We got it for free. "Most of the player base will pay $0 for Living World stuff" has always been part of the business model, as far as I can tell. The "Return To" initiative indicates that Anet really wants the players who haven't picked it up yet to be able to catch up, too (and get Skyscales with less map farming, as well). Now we're just left with weird corner cases like "It's way better to have bought GW2 in June 2021 than in October 2021."

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8 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

Most of us didn't buy the Living World stuff, though. We got it for free. "Most of the player base will pay $0 for Living World stuff" has always been part of the business model, as far as I can tell. The "Return To" initiative indicates that Anet really wants the players who haven't picked it up yet to be able to catch up, too (and get Skyscales with less map farming, as well). Now we're just left with weird corner cases like "It's way better to have bought GW2 in June 2021 than in October 2021."

I just made my big statement but just to add I logged in to all of seasons, and for like half of them I never played on launch. I came back to season 5 a year later when it was all done. Fantastic for me but for my friend I got into the game he didn't get all the season 2 and 3 unlocks so that just sucks. I don't think the option should be us veteran players spend the gold for our new friends, I know this was presented in this thread but it's absolutely ridiculous.

 

Honestly, we're both limited time why don't we just play Far Cry 6 together (I know bugs, Ubisoft blah blah it's a point). It's straightforward, I don't need to make some huge presentation to get my friend to play.

 

It's about time and value, most of season 3 and 4 isn't worth the cost of a new game on Steam that's on sale. Maybe to all the ones on the forums but to an outside player: Why.

 

What does this game offer me?

 

Marketing isn't working so it's word of mouth. Word of mouth is saying it's great. They see the cost.

 

Why?

 

You reading this, you are not new. Do you want new players? Do you want this game to thrive?

 

What I get on these forums is that people want everyone to buy the Witcher 1 to play the Witcher 3. But the game doesn't require you to play the previous two. Fantastic! GW2 DOES NOT DO THAT.

 

To enjoy this game you need to buy ancient Witcher 1 and acceptably old Witcher 2.  No. No he's going to ask me to go play a new game that doesn't ask all of that from him.

 

Why? Because time is valuable.

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3 hours ago, PMoneyMobileRobot.4630 said:

It's crazy that I can dump $180 into a subscription game over the course of a year and not feel as nicked and dimmed as I can here in a month.  It's disgusting.

 

It’s not crazy, it’s because subscriptions are specifically designed that way. It’s why it’s so attractive as a business model, it’s why gyms can be profitable and empty, it’s why they sell them to you as “$0.0x per day”. Unless you log in regularly, you’re paying the company a premium to hold your character data for you.
 

I think that this is a packaging issue and less a price issue. Giving away story episodes for free is not tenable since that’s revenue lost for ANet, but it does make sense to package the episodes with an expansion or at least give players a clearly labelled option during purchase of that expansion.

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6 minutes ago, Kalocin.5982 said:

You reading this, you are not new. Do you want new players? Do you want this game to thrive?

 

Maybe you’re lost? You’re not talking to the people who set business strategy for the game. It’s nobody’s responsibility here to expand the player count by voting on business models proposed by other players. I would be delightfully surprised if anyone who sets business strategy even reads the forums or manages to get through these threads. All you can do is say “this was an experience I had” and all you can expect in return is “this is what I think about your experience”. At best this is a suggestion box, not a business meeting.

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1 hour ago, Mil.3562 said:

The so called marketing model that ANet is pushing out is like selling a house with 5 ensuite bedrooms, 2 powder rooms and a huge courtyard. But those buyers who bought and paid for the house will realise that they have access to only two bedrooms, no courtyard, no powder rooms for guests. For those you will have to pay separately.

In your analogy it is more like you buy the house and it has planning permission for a granny annex. But guess what, you still have to pay to build the annex. 

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1 hour ago, ProtoGunner.4953 said:

Everything up to EoD should be free, including the seasons. Everything else is shite practice and not consumer friendly. Others do it, Anet can do it. No fee here and there. This isn't an argument anymore. Other games work on freemium basis.

 

Some games are freemium, some are subscription, some are DLC. Are you suggesting that anything other than freemium is a bad model, because that’s a very good way to get yourself thrown out of any business strategy meeting that matters. The idea that free-for-me is the only “consumer friendly” practice is an odd hill to die on in a capitalist market. The DLC being discussed actually is free if you are already playing, so it’s weird to suggest that it should just be free in perpetuity, revenue be damned.

 

Beyond which, I would wager GW2 already is freemium insofar as the Gem Store whales likely subsidise content more than any other group.

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8 hours ago, PMoneyMobileRobot.4630 said:

Again I have said multiple times I don't care how much it costs.  I care that it costs.  I need to play Lw1 and 2 for HoT to make sense.   Which means I have to make an additional purchase on top of the one I just made.  I used the $79 version because that's the one I bought.  Let's say you bought the $29 bundle.  You still have to buy those Living Worlds.  You still are sold product with missing content.  As a new player you would have no idea it's like that.

 

Contrast that with any other big mmo.  Hell even greedy kitten Blizzard wouldn't do that to you.  And they are too busy feeling up the female staff anyway.

 

But I have to go to sleep now so I'm going to sign off arguing.  What I will say is don't give them the money and just watch a YouTube video summary of the lore up until whatever expansion you're playing.  We call that a pro gamer move.

“I care that it costs”.

 

We also need food to survive, so do you complain at the market because they charge you for food? 
 

Do you think Anet employees are volunteers that slave away at keyboards 8+ hours a day to produce free stuff for players?
 

Think it costs $0 to run this business with hundreds of workers and the thousands of other elements associated with running a business? 
 

Wow? You mean the game by Activision/Blizzard that charges a monthly fee to play? 
 

You want season 1 and 2? Spend $20 in gems.

 

Too bad if someone chose not to play the game and missed the window of opportunity to save themselves like $60. We’re not talking $600 here, were talking like $60… Minuscule cost compared. And if someone is in that difficult of a situation, then trade gold to gems over time and get it for free from the nice company that doesn’t charge a monthly sub fee, but stil allows players to get additional free stuff over time…

 

 

Edited by Swagger.1459
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8 hours ago, PMoneyMobileRobot.4630 said:

Again I have said multiple times I don't care how much it costs.  I care that it costs.  I need to play Lw1 and 2 for HoT to make sense.   Which means I have to make an additional purchase on top of the one I just made.  I used the $79 version because that's the one I bought.  Let's say you bought the $29 bundle.  You still have to buy those Living Worlds.  You still are sold product with missing content.  As a new player you would have no idea it's like that.

 

Contrast that with any other big mmo.  Hell even greedy kitten Blizzard wouldn't do that to you.  And they are too busy feeling up the female staff anyway.

 

But I have to go to sleep now so I'm going to sign off arguing.  What I will say is don't give them the money and just watch a YouTube video summary of the lore up until whatever expansion you're playing.  We call that a pro gamer move.

Also, you bought the $79 version, so what did you spend your 4,000 gems on? 

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8 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Nope, stories shouldn't be free. That's ridiculous. What it should be is clearly labelled or sold as a package. But free, that's not really an option to a game without a sub.  If it had a sub it could be free.

Why is it ridiculous and how do you know what is or isn't an option?  I think it's ridiculous that you can purchase the expansions for a game and still be left missing large portions of the central story content that is the primary driver of development for the game.  I think the fact that they're doing a free DLC event right now suggests that it's a possibility they could get by without that revenue stream and that doing so could be beneficial as far as getting players engaged with the game again.  I think this is a legitimate question.  So, what's ridiculous about it?  

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Companies most of the time use non sub based services since they noticed years ago that they get more money out of people by doing b2p/f2p titles. 

 

If sub were actually so expensive as people make it sound like then every online game would have monthly fees. 

 

With the amount of money I spent on few alts here, you know just to remove few barriers marketing team put there intentionally I could play WoW or FFXIV for 2 years without any worries. 

 

Imagine having to pay for each content patch game gets. Hrrr. Oh wait. 

Edited by Jin.8501
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9 hours ago, PMoneyMobileRobot.4630 said:

Again you just gave Arenanet $79 dollars for their newest expansion as a new player to get caught up on the story to play said new expansion.  You got to level 80 and went into HoT and got confused because you didn't have said content.  How is it their fault?  And why should they be punished monetarily?

I can spend $60 on FFXIV and get a complete story with only adding maybe $30 more on my sub fee and again that's being conservative with the amount.  It's still like what 50 cents a day.

 

I don't care how much it costs.  I care that it does cost.  If it's so integral to that story it should be free.  I'd be more willing to buy season 4 and Icebrood if they showed me some good faith.  But they'd rather flip us over and shake the change out.

I'm not arguing to pay structures.  I'm arguing the integrity.

Excuse me. But a new  FFXIV player here. I started a month and half ago. Already on the last expansion, but I'm not lvl 80 with any job (max is 75 DNC) and, while loving the game, I spent 20 bucks for the game, almost 40 for the expansions, then 40 for the last one (Endwalkers) and 35 for the 3 months suscription. That makes 135 for the content FFXIV currently has. Give 115 for the one month suscription

As right now, for 99.99 (100 bucks) you can buy all the expansions (including the last one) of GW2 plus 4000 gems. All of living season packs costs 4160 gems, which means, for 110 bucks you have all the content of the game. For ever. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy with FFXIV, I'm enjoying it a lot and have no buyer regret at all, game's worth every cent, but the price for a new player to catch up is the same for both games, however GW2 doesn't requiere suscription. 

Now, with that said. I started playing GW2 since it came out, but I left and came back to really play the game a year after PoF lanuched. Got the the first quest to get the raptor, loved what I saw of Elona (I played Gw1 so I loved to see Elona again). When I was at the 4th PoF story quest I said to myself. OK, I know who Balthazar is, obviously, but why is he so angry, and who the hell is this annoying voice in my head that calls herself "Taimi". So I decided to start with a new character and do the entire story from the start. I did the personal story, and once I completed Orr I got a mail, saying to go to Lion's Arch for a recap of Living season 1. A lunatic engineer tried to destroy the world, and thanks to help of the lovely kitten detective couple (I love Kasmeer and Jory, best couple ever, big fan here), the viking wannabe brute and the little mad Tiny Tina with a hearth of gold I stopped her, but in her dying breath she awakened Mordremoth, the dragon of the jungle. OK, got it, thanks story recap. 

Then they told me "story continues on living world season 2" Ok, let's see. Looked on the "my personal story" menu. I have to buy those things, I clicked and send me to the gems store. Bought it. Played. Then HoTs, same for Living season 3, the PoF, then same for Living season 4, and icebrood saga, which I had for free since I was already playing when those launched. Which of this part os confusing? I mean, I'm not gonna talk for nor against paying for content, or the way ANet has choose to price tag stuff, but confusing? It's all pretty straight forward. It's not confusing at all. You have to pay a DLC to see this chapters, this ones comes for free, and this one with the expansions packs. It's quite obvious which is which, where to buy them and how. I mean... I don't know what part of it you find confusing. Again, if those content should be free or not... That's not something I want to consider or talk about. But it's not confusing at all. 

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9 hours ago, PMoneyMobileRobot.4630 said:

I don't care how much it costs.  I care that it costs.

This type of mindset doesn't make sense in the current western culture, where services are the king. You're going to have a bad time going forward in these coming years.

Besides, the cost is optional since you can unlock the episodes with the in-game currency transfer. I don't see an issue here. They've had promotions where you can unlock the same stuff absolutely free of charge. 

There is so much content in the game that Anet's pay model is extremely generous by comparison.

Edited by NorthernRedStar.3054
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32 minutes ago, Jin.8501 said:

If sub were actually so expensive as people make it sound

I moved from WoW to GW about ten years ago. If I'd continued playing WoW during that time, I would have spent over £1000 on sub fees alone + whatever extra for expansions. Instead I've paid a total of £130 on everything aNet has ever released - all of GW1 and GW2 content. And what's more, I can carry on playing that content until the servers shut down, whereas my years of subscribing to WoW left me with nothing once I stopped.

That's why sub sounds so expensive - you pay so much more and end up with nothing.

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