What do you want from the Vindicator runes?

[Duke Blackrose.4981]

What effects do you want the Superior Rune of the Vindicator to have?

 

Personally, I'd like something that focuses on the hybrid damage/support nature of the spec. Those going Shiro or Jalis as their second legend already have good rune options, but there are no Power & Healing Power runes for those wishing to go Ventari.

 

* Power

* Healing Power

* Power

* Healing Power

* Power

* +125 Healing Power, Give allies within 300 radius Alacrity for 2s after dodging.

 

[Jijimuge.4675]

I suspect you're right that it'll be a mix of power and healing power - that's not a stat combination that exists as primary stats on "non-all stat" runes yet.

However, I don't think they'll add alacrity to the rune as it wouldn't be thematic for vindicator, with vindicator having had no real link to alacrity thus far.

More likely IMO is some kind of "gain endurance" or "vigor" effect

[Aeolus.3615]

3 hours ago, Jijimuge.4675 said:

I suspect you're right that it'll be a mix of power and healing power - that's not a stat combination that exists as primary stats on "non-all stat" runes yet.

However, I don't think they'll add alacrity to the rune as it wouldn't be thematic for vindicator, with vindicator having had no real link to alacrity thus far.

More likely IMO is some kind of "gain endurance" or "vigor" effect

More vigor on rune would be hilarious, the leap can be already spammed but can be interrupted and cc under some situations, that would transform WvW   in FvF  Frogs vs frogs :D, can u image 80vs80 perma leaping with a very very short delay.

 

(EDIT)The rune m8 end at being some 6th effect when using Legendary Alliance utils, looks like its the description of this utilities, i can imagime some resolution or resistance, but that could  make V quite  dependent on its 6th rune effect for performance rather than  tactic/way to play.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Duke Blackrose.4981]

47 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

More vigor on rune would be hilarious, the leap can be already spammed but can be interrupted and cc under some situations, that would transform WvW   in FvF  Frogs vs frogs :D, can u image 80vs80 perma leaping with a very very short delay.

 

(EDIT)The rune m8 end at being some 6th effect when using Legendary Alliance utils, looks like its the description of this utilities, i can imagime some resolution or resistance, but that could  make V quite  dependent on its 6th rune effect for performance rather than  tactic/way to play.

Is more Vigor even needed? You basically already have perma vigor with Song of Arboreum plus your choice of Retribution, Invocation, or Salvation traitlines (so, literally every build other than Destruction/Corruption/Vindicator). Vindicator has some mad endurance regen.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Duke Blackrose.4981

[Infusion.7149]

Why do you want alacrity on your power DPS spec?

It should have a strike damage bonus and a vigor strike damage bonus, preferably. The reason is scholar rune is commonly used on both power renegade and power herald, there is no reason to believe any other rune will be used other than eagle rune or maybe ogre rune unless it is PVE (then flame legion could work).

An ogre rune copy with a vigor bonus instead of a rock dog would probably a good start. +125 ferocity is 8.3% damage so the damage bonus would have to be a conditional above 4% (maybe 5 or 7%).

Right now if you use discretize's beta calculator it isn't looking good for vindicator.
https://discretize.github.io/discretize-gear-optimizer/

Damage number comes out to 28.3K with force + impact (sharpening stone instead of slaying potion), no spotter but including banners, 25 might, vuln, Assassin's presence , frost spirit, sharpening stone. If you use "benchmark" setting (no AP, but empower allies turned on) it's 28.5K. Using Notoriety trait and "benchmark" setting puts it at 30.2K which means greatsword will need to push more damage out.
Using other runes than scholar while keeping Sharpening Stone , +100 power +70 ferocity food:

• Vindicator rune with Ogre stats but10% bonus with vigor or not full endurance (i.e. +175 power, 100 ferocity, +10% strike damage while endurance is not full) would be ~30.2K
•  Vindicator rune with Ogre stats but 7% bonus with vigor or not full endurance (i.e. +175 power, 100 ferocity, +7% strike damage while endurance is not full and +20% vigor duration) would be ~29.4K
• Flame legion = 29K
• Eagle = 29K
• Spellbreaker = 28.9K , but you won't use this in fractals due to instabilities
• Scholar, no active bonus = 28.8K
• Ogre = 28.6K
• Thief = 28.5K
• Strength = 28.3K
• Pack = 27K

It's going to be a melee power DPS so in the current team setup it's going to be either used in strikes, low tier fractals (T1-2), or raids. It is unlikely to be used in T4 fractals due to condi having time to ramp : you wouldn't bring it for heals as seraph firebrands , renegades, and condi scourges already put out that sort of support. Ideally greatsword would push it beyond 34K DPS when Notoriety is traited. It's not a healer just as DH with wings of resolve or a scourge in full viper are not healers.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Duke Blackrose.4981]

21 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Why do you want alacrity on your power DPS spec?

It should have a strike damage bonus and a vigor strike damage bonus, preferably. The reason is scholar rune is commonly used on both power renegade and power herald, there is no reason to believe any other rune will be used other than eagle rune or maybe ogre rune unless it is PVE (then flame legion could work).

An ogre rune copy with a vigor bonus instead of a rock dog would probably a good start. +125 ferocity is 8.3% damage so the damage bonus would have to be a conditional above 4% (maybe 5 or 7%).

Right now if you use discretize's beta calculator it isn't looking good for vindicator.
https://discretize.github.io/discretize-gear-optimizer/

Damage number comes out to 28.3K with force + impact (sharpening stone instead of slaying potion), no spotter but including banners, 25 might, vuln, Assassin's presence , frost spirit, sharpening stone. If you use "benchmark" setting (no AP, but empower allies turned on) it's 28.5K. Using Notoriety trait and "benchmark" setting puts it at 30.2K which means greatsword will need to push more damage out.
Using other runes than scholar while keeping Sharpening Stone , +100 power +70 ferocity food:

• Vindicator rune with Ogre stats but10% bonus with vigor or not full endurance (i.e. +175 power, 100 ferocity, +10% strike damage while endurance is not full) would be ~30.2K
•  Vindicator rune with Ogre stats but 7% bonus with vigor or not full endurance (i.e. +175 power, 100 ferocity, +7% strike damage while endurance is not full and +20% vigor duration) would be ~29.4K
• Flame legion = 29K
• Eagle = 29K
• Spellbreaker = 28.9K , but you won't use this in fractals due to instabilities
• Scholar, no active bonus = 28.8K
• Ogre = 28.6K
• Thief = 28.5K
• Strength = 28.3K
• Pack = 27K

It's going to be a melee power DPS so in the current team setup it's going to be either used in strikes, low tier fractals (T1-2), or raids. It is unlikely to be used in T4 fractals due to condi having time to ramp : you wouldn't bring it for heals as seraph firebrands , renegades, and condi scourges already put out that sort of support. Ideally greatsword would push it beyond 34K DPS when Notoriety is traited. It's not a healer just as DH with wings of resolve or a scourge in full viper are not healers.

Your post is a phenomenal breakdown of why we don't need another power rune. Look at how many options we have and tell me that Power Vindicator is lacking for runes.

 

What they do lack is a runeset for the entire support HALF of the specialization.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Duke Blackrose.4981 said:

Your post is a phenomenal breakdown of why we don't need another power rune. Look at how many options we have and tell me that Power Vindicator is lacking for runes.

 

What they do lack is a runeset for the entire support HALF of the specialization.

How do you plan on supporting when half the spec is damage , the greatsword has no support, and the main reliable support (the Saint of Zu Heltzer dodge skill) is gated by endurance? Relying on the flip skills on alliance legend is less reliable than a Kalla renegade using Soulcleave summit and a Kalla renegade at least has alacrity so it has role compression (see cele alac ren). For reference Seraph firebrands are doing around ~24K DPS, cele firebrands ~20K DPS , cele ren ~30K DPS and all of these have role compression because they give you necessary boons (quickness/alac). You won't take a vindicator healer over a heal tempest or a druid as you can't boon 10 people and there's essentially no reason it would be taken over a FB/alac ren in fractals especially in double scourge comps since it is power based damage.

Let's look at the "support" from alliance legend:
* regen/resistance on battle dance --- resistance unaffected by healing power and regen is way too slow a heal : if you want regen you can run herald or tempest/druid
* condi cleanse on Tree Song , so unless it's fractals it's not that relevant in PVE since it's a flip skill --- unaffected by healing power for the most part (0.22 healing power scaling)
* prot from Awakening , something you get from power alac ren ... you won't use vindicators where you would use condi ren , unaffected by healing power

Urn of Saint Victor is a complete meme... by the time you get it off people can be dead already and that's assuming you aren't dead yourself because it stops you from healing or being healed. Not to mention you need to be under 50% health for the healing  power bonus from the minor trait Empire Divided. Might I remind you Urn of Saint Victor's healing is 708+0.22*healing power so the payoff isn't even there for healing power , with 1200 healing power you get an added 264 healing.

Look at the offensive capabilities / non-healing aspects:
* might from Nomad's advance
* self-quickness on scavenger burst
* self-fury from reaver's rage
* 10 stacks of might if you use Imperial Impact dodge and 2s boon extension (along with prot)
* vuln if you use the damage dodge (not advisable)
* vuln from greatsword 2 (Mist Unleashed) which is on 3 cooldown
* vuln on autoattack with greatsword and some chill

If it's going to be a rune that fits its "support" side it should be boon duration similar to pack rune but with  ferocity tacked on instead of precision. There's no reason to tack on healing power when it only affects the meme urn other than the traited dodge which has 0.5 healing power scaling (meaning if you have 0 healing power it is 2570 barrier and with 1200 healing power you get 3170... doesn't seem worth it to me for ~500 barrier). It is no more a support than full viper condi scourge...Sand Cascade provides ~ 2.5K barrier and has 10s base cooldown and if you run Desert Empowerment you get another 1.2K barrier every ~7s with no resource usage.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149
add healing power scaling for the Urn

[Aeolus.3615]

49 minutes ago, Duke Blackrose.4981 said:

Your post is a phenomenal breakdown of why we don't need another power rune. Look at how many options we have and tell me that Power Vindicator is lacking for runes.

 

What they do lack is a runeset for the entire support HALF of the specialization.

 

Half  of support skill is a rune to work on a t-rex trying to reach somthing out of its range.

AOE Stability or resolution on  dodge/leap  with a ICD, maybe, this would work better than try to boost something that's   240 range arround the caster and its on a flip coin CD.

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Telgum.6071]

Power damage escalating with base healing power and viceversa.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Telgum.6071

[Shao.7236]

Whatever it'll be, it's gonna be hard for me to not pick adventurers.

[Thon.3780]

1 + 25power

2  3% power convert to healing

3 + 50 power

4 + 20 chill duration

5 + 100 power

6 Gain 25% movement speed. Gain 3 stacks of  might , Fury , vigor for 6 seconds while in combat. (Cooldown: 12 Seconds)

Edited October 18, 2021 by Thon.3780

[Catchyfx.5768]

22 minutes ago, Thon.3780 said:

1 + 25power

2  3% power convert to healing

3 + 50 power

4 + 20 chill duration

5 + 100 power

6 Gain 25% movement speed. Gain 3 stacks of  might , Fury , vigor for 6 seconds while in combat. (Cooldown: 12 Seconds)

I would love movement speed+ something, it felt rly slow

[Thon.3780]

I prefer above one coz I can get 3 might ( 90 power 90 conditions damage ) fury ( let say 20 crit chance or equal to 420 precision ) and most importantly I can get vigor or endurance regen. That mean I can freely modify build . Ex no need to use retribution.  And we still have sub permanent swiftness . 

Actully I prefer. 33 % speed but I think will not put 33% for sure . It is too OP.

[Buran.3796]

  Boon duration since I think that in order to work the Vindicator needs quicknes & vigor and currently I would use the Leadership rune as a fundation, with only Traveler/Fireworks as a backup. 

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

My guess, something with power and healing power. I’m like the others though. It’s going to be hard to tear my current runes away for something else.  That 4th and 6th bonus will have to be something really good. 

[InsaneQR.7412]

I agree with the stats.

But the last effect could be something like: Vigor you apply heals allies. While under the effect of vigor you do x% more strike damage.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

2 hours ago, InsaneQR.7412 said:

I agree with the stats.

But the last effect could be something like: Vigor you apply heals allies. While under the effect of vigor you do x% more strike damage.

Or maybe something with vulnerability.

[Thon.3780]

I  hope that ANET will not pick status like this

1. power

2. healing 

3. power 

4. healing 

5.power

6. 5 % damage , 5 % healing effectiveness

 

it good for vindy  hybrid but it seem difficult to use for other build. 

[Chaos.7614]

If they rework the class to remove the support aspect and go all in on pDPS as it really needs to be:
1. Power

2. Ferocity

3. Power

4. Ferocity

5. Power

6. 10% increased power; deal 10% increased damage after swapping legends.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

So assuming the runes don't really change the meta rune sets.  What runes will you still be using?  Would runes of Torment work on Vindicator?  Or is that a wasted Rune slot?

[phokus.8934]

Seeing as how the spec is being around dodging, I'd expect some power/vigor combination and the sixth piece bonus might be a mindbender.

[Thon.3780]

After I back to sleep and think about possibly. 
imo ANET might not implement vigor or increase vigor duration.

why? It might break balance

 

if theft use this. You will see flood of spiders from mad king labyrinth. 
evade evade and evade. Very annoying……

 

[Aeolus.3615]

On 11/6/2021 at 11:30 AM, Thon.3780 said:

After I back to sleep and think about possibly. 
imo ANET might not implement vigor or increase vigor duration.

why? It might break balance

 

if theft use this. You will see flood of spiders from mad king labyrinth. 
evade evade and evade. Very annoying……

 

But that's way to much  vigor into the spec if we look the class  overall vigor capabilities.

I betting in something  like  all stats and  a   6th rune effect like barrier on  healing  skill or some  consume condis on leap  or evading .

 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Kidel.2057]

More endurance generation or effects on dodge. 

PLEASE do not give it healing power or celestial stats. 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Kidel.2057