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Celestial/Minstrel Manifesto [Merged]


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Recently Celestial stats were given a buff from having every stat except boon duration and condition duration to having all stats including those, meaning it went from having 7 stats to 9 stats. While

TL;DR delete marauders because it dominate power dps?

Not sure what meta you're playing in that scourges and elementalists are dominant along with berserker stats... I find that scrappers are far more dominant since 2019 gyro reworks and then doubly so

Stats are part of the issue. But only a part.

One problem comes from the effective value of stats. Precision and Ferocity are worth more if you already have Power, you don't want too much toughness, condition damage scales with one (two with Expertise) stats compared to power damage, etc.
Stats just aren't equal.

And neither is stat distribution. Sets with more stats have more stat points to spend. That's not helping either, but at least I can see where it's coming from - Specialization is usually just more effective. Even with more overall stats from Marauder, you wouldn't do more damage than 'Zerkers.

So yeah, the problem comes from how stats work. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it makes stat selection far more interesting.
For an extreme example, who would play Celestial if it had the exact same overall stat value than Berzerkers? Even considering how stats synergize, you're probably still better off going specialized. Choosing a set with more overall stats is still a trade-off. Whether the trade-off is good is debatable, but it's there.

With all that said, I cannot agree to removing Celestial.
On one hand, in WvW people actually have to build their armor. We don't get fancy stat swaps as in sPvP. On the other hand, removing a set is just removing options, fun for the players who like playing with the set and it's blatantly admitting that you cannot fix the problem.
I'm being hyperbolic here, but what would your solution to the overrepresentation of Firebrand be? Just remove it from the game? I hope not.
Even nerfing Celestial I'm against, but that's a topic we can discuss about.

Changing Minstrel would not make sense. It's a 4-stat set and it would fall out of line with the other 4-stat sets. That's a bad bandaid fix that's not fixing anything. If the stats are working too well with each other, fix how stats work. If classes abuse the stat too much, fix the classes.
Want to fix Celestial? Make skill-coefficients more interesting. Celestial should be a trade-off to a more specialized set with higher results in one direction. Celestial can do a bit of everything, but it's also not very great at anything.

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On 10/15/2021 at 6:01 PM, Vallun.2071 said:

the dolyak stance cooldown

 

Or, to go off topic a bit, revert the change they did way back. Keep the base functionality of immunity to movement impairing conditions, remove the damage reduction and add back retaliation.. which is now resolution, somewhat making up for removing the damage reduction, but also adds a counter to it in form of boon strip.

 

The skill is overloaded as it is now on a 30s CD. I'd rather have a weaker, but still strong skill on a lower cooldown than some overloaded skill on a 60s cooldown. Dolyak Stance has barely seen any use in pvp after the cooldown nerf (a result of other changes as well, but still).

 

That way you also don't kill off one of the few useful utilities aside from CC that a ranger can bring into zerg content.

Edited by Lazze.9870
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On 10/21/2021 at 10:29 PM, Vallun.2071 said:

Good way to discredit yourself: "I don't like this person and also didn't read what they said, but I will go ahead and repeat their sentiment anyway"

If I copy and paste your novel into word I get 3 pages at 12 in Times New Roman font at 1,720 words with over 8,000 characters. The point of my comment is you write too much when a few paragraphs will do.
My point stands though, comparing stat numbers is a fool game and we should look at the stats effectiveness on builds, specifically skills, and compare the stat types against each other. If you did that props to you but you could have saved a lot of people a lot of time putting a visual or two in there as well as cutting your word count in half at least.

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There's a lot of good points to OP, and thankfully I like reading essays. But nobody's going to use  harrier even if you get rid of minstrels. They would use nomads (an even tankier stat)  and then simply use boon duration consumables/sigils.  It is true that minstrels has a good combo for support, but in practice it's worn because their role is support and thus offensive stats are useless. A fair bit of irony is that it'd push them to .... celestial if they want boon duration and such. Most of the 3 stat types were obsolete from the very beginning and they're just not going to be a thing.

Celestial is only good because of Might and on a handful of builds. And it's also mostly attributable to the damage nerfs from the 2020 ptch.  This boon is handed out a lot. May as well look into that.  If you wanted to nerf the new additions (expertise/concentration) a bit, that would be fine.  It is kinda stupid it has the same concentration as other stats that also have concentration. But if anything, this means that stats like harrier need to be buffed. It's only a useful stat in raids because of toughness mechanics and not because it's a good stat.

 

But since it's really only relevant in small scale, and that as a whole will have to be fixed on a fundamental level. But I honestly don't feel like picking on this small subset is warranted atm.

tl;dr It is true certain stats like Minstrel and Celestial are flat out better than certain bad stats so people use them instead. But the other half is that nobody uses the bad stats.... because they are bad and they still aren't going to get used. If anything, it'll just go back to the more traditional soldier/wanderer/sentinel mixed with other stuff because they have sound stats that make sense in a combo. Oh, and dire/trailblazer.

Edited by ArchonWing.9480
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  • 2 months later...

Why? Is perfectly fine being able to abuse condition spam while also having high healing power, concentration, the three power stats, toughness and just focusing your gameplay in surviving while the enemy dies of boredom because only two classes can spam condition cleanse.

Also Celestial and Marauder are exactly the same, we can't remove one without the other.

/s

Edited by Telgum.6071
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2 minutes ago, Boh.4568 said:

I still don't understand why would a power class use cele over marauder, a condi class over trailblazer, and a support class over minstrel

These people believe that blank stat combination is overpowered somehow, when in reality it's the classes themselves that utilize them are busted.
For example, I'm running some cele build and I've got around 3k armor on it, but I still get yeeted for over 7k+ or even 12k+ from certain classes because I don't have any Protection generation.

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Good luck with that. Some people tried to bring the mode closer to sPvP balance for years. The WvW community wasn't amused i tell you. They sure love their "cele weaver with 25 stacks off set sigil/Guild Objective Aura/damage reduction food vs some poor dude that hasn't unlocked mounts yet" gameplay.

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3 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Keep promoting low effort, high reward tank builds like autoattack Staff Mirage, FT Scrapper, Core necro, Bunker rangers and Mallyx Heralds (despite the resistance nerf), or Cele Tempests.

 

 

This isn't due to Cele (Cele Mirage isn't really getting as much benefit from it unlike Elementalist is, for example).

 

Mirage is even more broken when running Trailblazer (their sustain is almost untouched and their condi cleanse is still the same), they do not benefit much from Cele buff.

 

Scrappers are annoying, sure - but no Scrapper was running full Berserkers or Marauders anyhow, everyone I know has been running Diviner here and there. So, not much has changed there.

 

Core Necro is even more busted with Trailblazer, the whole strength of Core Necro is ridiculous Life Force generation, so no, Cele did not buff them either.

 

Bunker Rangers, yes - this is where we get to the "Cele buffed" part, bunker rangers are definitely benefiting from the Cele buff. HOWEVER, Trailblazer Rangers (who are already Bunkery af) are even worse due to root spam. Especially Druids.

 

Mallyx Heralds, they are walking Condibombs. Yes, you need a massive Condi Cleanse to get rid of it, but... Cele Heralds RARELY run Staff (it's usually quadra swap sigil with mace/axe and sword/shield). But they do drop VERY fast when they are not in Glint (and even then, everyone has gotten used to Heralds that they rarely simply heal you up). But yes, Heralds have definitely benefited from the Cele buff - and tbh, that's only Herald, Renegade is perfectly fine (a bit undertuned, but it is still fine).

 

Cele Tempest/Weavers - yes. The pen-ultimate beneficiary of Cele buff - they are quite annoying and in good hands, neigh impossible to kill. However, as they are Elementalists, they all suffer from the same core problem: getting bursted or outpressured.

 

The one you did not mention, for I don't know what reasons: Cele Firebrand - the ultimate beneficiary of the Celestial buff were Firebrands. All six gods know we don't need Firebrand running a show in another game mode, but in terms of roaming - the annoying Burn-stacking craplords are indeed the best Cele profession out there.

 

And, quite frankly - I don't mind that. (I play Cele Renegade, Cele Weaver, Berserker/Captain Scrapper, Marauder Reaper, so freely bash my choices of not playing a Berserker-only Berserker with Torch as its only weapon because that's what real pros play)

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Guys I dont disagree that classes lack balancing, but do you rly think we will get a big balance patch again? 

 

Cele may not be the core issue yes, but it's the trigger. Providing all these stats for free allows some extreme independence on what you can run, tho it's obvious that cele is a condition build booster stat, not a power build one. When trailblazer is tanky asf for it's dmg, it can't compete with the sustain certain rune and cele combinations quite evidently so provide.

 

Tho if we want to talk about Trailblazer, I suppose that's an entirely different topic on it's own. 

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14 minutes ago, ysnake.3619 said:

 

 

The one you did not mention, for I don't know what reasons: Cele Firebrand - the ultimate beneficiary of the Celestial buff were Firebrands. All six gods know we don't need Firebrand running a show in another game mode, but in terms of roaming - the annoying Burn-stacking craplords are indeed the best Cele profession out there.

 

Wasn't sure on mentioning Guardians cause yes, they get a lot, but many seem to sleep on them with Cele gear rn. 

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34 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Wasn't sure on mentioning Guardians cause yes, they get a lot, but many seem to sleep on them with Cele gear rn. 

 

View from it from this perspective: some professions and elites couldn't benefit from Trailblazer while essentially wanting to do the same thing: stack conditions and be tanky. Trailblazer Tempest/Weaver PALE in comparison to, for example, Trailblazer Mirage, Soulbeast, Druid, Necromancer - however, Celestial "allowed" these builds to be played as Elementalists really need the Healing and Concetration stats due to their squishy nature.

 

Do we need more "Trailblazery" playstyles in WvW? Not really - do we really want WvW to be a bunch of cheesebuilds with 1shots? No, not really (at least I don't) - so, this is an okay middle ground.

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1 hour ago, Boh.4568 said:

I still don't understand why would a power class use cele over marauder, a condi class over trailblazer, and a support class over minstrel

Because they think that "hybrid"-builds are some kind of jack of all trades. But in reality, they are not an real power dmg class, condi dmg class or an real supporter. They can do everything, just not good. 

 

Some classes, like Firebrand or weaver, can make use of it all   but could still be better. In those cases  its not the cele stat that makes it broken, but the synergy between all the traits and skills themselves.  Overall, they are just very tanky and focus on being sustainable & some kind of Staller. The damage is simply underwhelming, the boon duration is mediocre ,as well as the toughness+Healing power crumb.

 

Whatever makes those class to, what people like to call broken, is not Celestial ,but unnerfed strong traits and skills.

(like FBs trait "Altruisitc Healing" or Weavers Immune-Rotation)

Edited by Virdo.1540
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54 minutes ago, Nukk.3492 said:

Notice how warrior is like the only class that doesn't have a busted build?

 

Nothing new for Warriors, I'm afraid - always getting the short end of the stick. I honestly wish Warriors were good at something other than 7sec stun Berserker cheese Burn and running away with Greatsword.

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1 hour ago, Nukk.3492 said:

Notice how warrior is like the only class that doesn't have a busted build?

I don't know if it because I play celestial sword weaver, but there's some pretty strong spellbreaker builds out there.  They keep me nearly permanently stunned while doing immense amounts of damage, and they can dash away effortlessly.  At this point if ele gets nerfed again I might just pick up a full marauder spellbreaker.

 

4 hours ago, Boh.4568 said:

I still don't understand why would a power class use cele over marauder, a condi class over trailblazer, and a support class over minstrel

Pretty much this.  Celestial is only good on professions that do a lot of strike damage condi damage, soft-cc, self-healing, and self-booning all at the same time.  Not just a little, but a lot.  Celestial lacks power, which is the most efficiently scaling damage stat in the game.   IMO there's only 3 professions that benefit from this, and those are elementalist, revenant, and guardian.  Only on certain builds for the last two

 

Mostly I'm wondering why the OP thinks that celestial revs and eles are easy to play.  Next to mesmer they're the most complicated professions.  

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4 hours ago, Boh.4568 said:

I still don't understand why would a power class use cele over marauder, a condi class over trailblazer, and a support class over minstrel

It's usually small scale and roaming builds that run it and even pure power builds benefit a lot from the defensive stats off a few pieces. I already used some cele on power roaming builds before the buff. The set was already strong so that buff didn't seem justified. But the argument is mainly for some hybrid damage weapons or builds where it's overtuned compared to other options. 

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2 hours ago, ysnake.3619 said:

 

View from it from this perspective: some professions and elites couldn't benefit from Trailblazer while essentially wanting to do the same thing: stack conditions and be tanky. Trailblazer Tempest/Weaver PALE in comparison to, for example, Trailblazer Mirage, Soulbeast, Druid, Necromancer - however, Celestial "allowed" these builds to be played as Elementalists really need the Healing and Concetration stats due to their squishy nature.

 

Do we need more "Trailblazery" playstyles in WvW? Not really - do we really want WvW to be a bunch of cheesebuilds with 1shots? No, not really (at least I don't) - so, this is an okay middle ground.

Basically how I feel too.

I think the Celestial change was a bad one because it's just flat out better than a lot of other stats now. If they reduced the numbers on each stat by like, 2 - 3 points each, it'd be a lot less appealing.

But I also like diversity, and I really don't see a problem with some things having a niche. Sure, it can be frustrating to fight something low effort when you're playing something that isn't, but that doesn't mean it needs to be removed. 

To me, Cele is just another of a handful of stats that is obnoxious in one specific role, often on only a few specific class/specs, and irrelevant or low impact elsewhere. It would be nice for ANet to make some changes to it, but is it really ruining WvW? No. 

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All in all condition application, soft cc, and dmg modifiers of conditions as well as proper reevaluation of the resistance and resolution boon distribution need to be examined. While we are at it, examine specific cases where CC needs to do dmg, increase unblockable attacks in classes that need it (maybe revert to unblockable duration and not stacks), and reduce necromancer survivability with stats like cele or trailblazer. 

 

Main point is, such low effort builds, cele or not, should not be as rewarding as they are full stop.

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1 hour ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Main point is, such low effort builds, cele or not, should not be as rewarding as they are full stop.

Why? I don't understand why so many people take issue with low effort builds in roaming and small scale when so few of them translate to large scale (Rene and Firebrand, both of which have seen significant changes in PvP and not in WvW), meaning nerfing them effectively removes them from existence.

Roaming has been the same handful of classes since day one. The more variety those classes have with their roaming builds, and the more class variety in that niche, the better. 
I'd rather face a Cele Firebrand than D/P Shadow Arts Thief #90902384982341. 

I fully agree that Celestial is over stacked. I also think Minstrel is an issue with large scale, but much of its impact could be reduced by making adjustments to the classes that use that stat the most.

The real problem is that people are always demanding the simplest solutions, and ANet often delivers on that carelessness without considering how it effects the minority.
As a long time core Engi main my class is the shining example of that, because 99% of the time balance is made to it it's in an attempt to nerf Scrapper or Holo and only furthers the uselessness of core.

It's okay for there to be low effort builds so long as there's diversity. When everyone is playing the same 1 or 2 builds per each class, regardless of roaming or zerging, then there's an issue - and in my experience, there's more diversity than ever. Zerging on the other hand has become more restrictive every year.

Edited by Shroud.2307
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