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Celestial/Minstrel Manifesto [Merged]


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50 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Why?

I get your points fully, but it simply is unfair to other classes. Perhaps I'm biased afterall but sure, Burnzerker is oppressive and stupid build, but warrior as a whole requires far more effort to be played. You can say it's the class design, but when I find only 3 warrior roamers in prime time EB alliances, something is up. 

 

The low effort builds should exist. But the moment they perform very well compared to high effort builds, they make those obsolote and if anything kill some of that diversity.

 

Why play anything that's not necro? Why not play ranger or Thief? Imagine introducing ways of low effort builds with such classes aka bunker rangers, core necro tanks and hell, shadow arts/ deadly arts thieves. 

 

This would not be an issue if balancing was more quick and often to shake up the metas.

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Recently Celestial stats were given a buff from having every stat except boon duration and condition duration to having all stats including those, meaning it went from having 7 stats to 9 stats. While

TL;DR delete marauders because it dominate power dps?

Not sure what meta you're playing in that scourges and elementalists are dominant along with berserker stats... I find that scrappers are far more dominant since 2019 gyro reworks and then doubly so

10 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Keep promoting low effort, high reward tank builds like autoattack Staff Mirage, FT Scrapper, Core necro, Bunker rangers and Mallyx Heralds (despite the resistance nerf), or Cele Tempests.

 

 

Someone died.

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7 hours ago, Svarty.8019 said:

Someone died.

Not as many times as you'd think (me getting ganked). The real issue is the effort you need to put vs the effort the enemy puts with a lower skill level. 

 

If anything buff warrior lines like defense and arms, balance out stength and tactics a bit more, remove the mandatory discipline line, revisit Berserker and Spellbreaker. Bladesworn is a free bag anyway. 

 

As long as class imbalances exist, such stats enable them to fully abuse their kit in a very oppressive build with little requirements. 

And for the forum enthusiasts, it actually happens that not al of us are Legendary status PvP players. So cut me the slack of L2P or "Dude's so biased agh, imma go EB roll my FT scrapper now in secret". 

Edited by Grand Marshal.4098
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11 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I don't know if it because I play celestial sword weaver, but there's some pretty strong spellbreaker builds out there.  They keep me nearly permanently stunned while doing immense amounts of damage, and they can dash away effortlessly.  At this point if ele gets nerfed again I might just pick up a full marauder spellbreaker.

Likely exactly because of this. If you arent careful, spb will steal all your boons with interrupts and then you are dead meat as cele weaver. Considering you have to be casting all the time for your heal to function, and you have to be in melee, its very easy for warrior to spam interrupts on you (and get all your boons via sigil of absorption). If the spb doesnt kill themselves in your condi fields / on your fire shield, its a very tough matchup for you.

You can try playing spb even now, its not so simple as it looks 🙂

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7 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:
11 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I don't know if it because I play celestial sword weaver, but there's some pretty strong spellbreaker builds out there.  They keep me nearly permanently stunned while doing immense amounts of damage, and they can dash away effortlessly.  At this point if ele gets nerfed again I might just pick up a full marauder spellbreaker.

You can try playing spb even now, its not so simple as it looks 🙂

^^^^ Do this. break the ignorance like boons and experience how it feels to play warrior and expand your horizon of experience :D. let us know what you think after. 

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12 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Not as many times as you'd think (me getting ganked). The real issue is the effort you need to put vs the effort the enemy puts with a lower skill level. 

 

If anything buff warrior lines like defense and arms, balance out stength and tactics a bit more, remove the mandatory discipline line, revisit Berserker and Spellbreaker. Bladesworn is a free bag anyway. 

 

As long as class imbalances exist, such stats enable them to fully abuse their kit in a very oppressive build with little requirements. 

And for the forum enthusiasts, it actually happens that not al of us are Legendary status PvP players. So cut me the slack of L2P or "Dude's so biased agh, imma go EB roll my FT scrapper now in secret". 

 

This is why cele/condi needs all those extra defensive stats. The number of times I land my burst in this matchup compared to my opponent is ridiculous. I'm definitely outplaying them here. Every time I land a burst, it's just instantly erased, so I have to sit around and kite and wait til my cooldowns are up and try again, and hope that *eventually* I'll have done enough condi to overwhelm their cleanse, but half the time it's impossible and I have to just leave. In this case, the fight is interrupted by a deadeye.

If I'd been playing power, I would have killed them in the first or second burst.

In other words, it's the build, not the stats. The stats serve a purpose. Nerf overperforming skills, and buff underperforming ones.

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3 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

In other words, it's the build, not the stats. The stats serve a purpose. Nerf overperforming skills, and buff underperforming ones.

 I think it's just overall lack of damage and balance philosophy from Spvp that spilled into WvW that makes this stat set stick out more for dislike. Power damage needs to go back up accordingly(respectively in some areas, not all.)  So if you do misplay hard on all stat/safety stat sets(Cele, minstrels, trailblaizers) like this, you will go down.

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On 10/15/2021 at 9:01 AM, Vallun.2071 said:

Now here's the part where celestial really goes over the top. The recently added boon duration and condition duration add interesting synergies, but when you realize that the entire combat system has been designed around simplifying buffs and debuffs into specific boons and conditions, you realize that celestial has way more utility than just stats. For example, the weakness, immobilize, and chill condition getting longer duration gives even more potential to debilitate your opponents.

 

It's less about debilitating opponents for more time, and more about ensuring that short cover conditions last just that little bit longer so that they get cleansed instead of a big condi.

No long-lasting condi is expected to fully tick out anyway. If you land a 10 second poison, that is going to be cleansed well before it ticks out. It doesn't matter if it's 10 seconds, 100 seconds, or 1000 seconds, the opponent is going to clear it in probably less than 5, so expertise isn't helping you here. What expertise does help with is when you have a 2 second cripple that you can stretch into a 3 second cripple, and now when your opponent tries to cleanse the poison, they hit cripple instead, ensuring that poison sticks for a few extra ticks.

 

I think that's totally fair compensation for playing a style that 1. is useless in large fights (a few builds notwithstanding), 2. takes much longer to kill opponents and 3. gives opponents many more chances to kill you while the condi ticks. 4. is typically closer range and with longer cooldowns

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8 minutes ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

 I think it's just overall lack of damage and balance philosophy from Spvp that spilled into WvW that makes this stat set stick out more for dislike. Power damage needs to go back up accordingly(respectively in some areas, not all.)  So if you do misplay hard on all stat/safety stat sets(Cele, minstrels, trailblaizers) like this, you will go down.

It's really not a safety stat set when you consider that condi takes time to tick and can be cleansed. Eg. In a 1v1, a power build might need to survive 5 or 10 seconds to get its burst off and down the opponent. A condi build might need to survive 5 or 10 seconds to get its burst off, then 20 seconds for it to tick, but oops it's cleansed in the first second, so another 10-15 for the cooldowns to come back, 5-10 to land the burst again, 20 to tick .. oops cleansed again, 10-15 for the cooldowns to come back, 5-10 to land the burst again, 20 to tick..

So yeah, it is necessary to have some tankiness to survive that extra time.

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1 hour ago, coro.3176 said:

 

It's less about debilitating opponents for more time, and more about ensuring that short cover conditions last just that little bit longer so that they get cleansed instead of a big condi.

This bit is pretty interesting.

Early on in this thread (or what was originally Vallun's thread) I made a post regarding stat differences. The whole discussion about cleansing and access to what can be described as bonus effects (ie., certain debilitating conditions existing on abilities not specifically designed for that purpose) kind of sits on a similar balance. The classes that could utilize some of these things from Celestial stats tend to do them well enough to have them without Celestial stats (providing them gearing options no matter what) whereas the classes most prone to use Celestial to gain some sort of repertoir tend not to have those bonus effects and be more reliant on the stats for other reasons.

Case in point, classes that have some gratitious weakness, chills or poison thrown in tend not to be very dependent on Celestial. Whereas classes with fewer options outside of Celestial (not only may have stat holes or more boon dependency but-) may also be very limited in bonus effects on their weapon abilities or unique class mechanics (including cleanses). So broad stats like this also help slating out or covering up some pretty wild imbalances if we look at abilities and traits (or their effect stacks) alone. I'm not saying the more dependent classes are bad or have no options but their envelopes are narrower so they have fewer options.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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At this point, I would say any change is good. We really need more diversity for builds/comps for WvW, it's been the same for so long that it starts to get boring. Every team needs a FB and a scrapper, and only good damage dealer are scrouges, heralds and DHs. What's worse and more hopeless is that none of the EoD specs are strong enough to get a spot unless they are buffed

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2 hours ago, coro.3176 said:

It's really not a safety stat set when you consider that condi takes time to tick and can be cleansed. Eg. In a 1v1, a power build might need to survive 5 or 10 seconds to get its burst off and down the opponent. A condi build might need to survive 5 or 10 seconds to get its burst off, then 20 seconds for it to tick, but oops it's cleansed in the first second, so another 10-15 for the cooldowns to come back, 5-10 to land the burst again, 20 to tick .. oops cleansed again, 10-15 for the cooldowns to come back, 5-10 to land the burst again, 20 to tick..

So yeah, it is necessary to have some tankiness to survive that extra time.

Did you even read what the post? Celestial is a all rounder stat(all stat), Safety net stats are things like Trailblaizer and Ministrels.  Which is why I said in that post giving back more power damage again to WvW is what should happen. I've played condi builds in roaming and some group scenarios I know how they operate. The only time I find there's any sort of struggle is when people are partied up and comp'd out with multiple supports, otherwise cleanses are limited.  Low scale/roaming  settings, there are certainly condi builds that can burst harder than power, don't act like they don't exist. Also here's a fight with a celestial burn FB, from December beta, since you're trying to throw out a image like all condi builds seem to suffer badly because someone built themselves for cleanses. 

https://streamable.com/5loaz8
 -Also for the record, after a few duels this guy beat me a lot, once he adapted to how I play-

Edited by Lucentfir.7430
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On 1/17/2022 at 7:24 AM, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

As long as class imbalances exist, such stats enable them to fully abuse their kit in a very oppressive build with little requirements. 

Nope.

 

There's no point hoping to one day hit a balance when the core class mechanics are so wildly different that you can't compare them.

 

Thus you can't even have balance as a goal. The only thing you can aim for is "interesting" or "fun", but fun often equates to overpowered. 

 

It's the player's job to switch classes when their favourite gets nerfed. It's sad that some classes are horribly difficult to play, narrowing the options for the vast majority of players. That's what I'd like to see changed, but it's a case of radically changing core mechanics, so it's not going to happen.

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15 hours ago, Lucentfir.7430 said:

Did you even read what the post? Celestial is a all rounder stat(all stat), Safety net stats are things like Trailblaizer and Ministrels.  Which is why I said in that post giving back more power damage again to WvW is what should happen. 

WvW is already basically all power damage outside of very small roaming fights, and even in roaming.

A full power soulbeast rapid fire combo deals .. I think 30k damage? True Shot hits for ~6-7k and getting knocked through a Test of Faith takes half a health bar. On a power build, I can one-shot players with a ~20k+ grenade barrage combo in less than a second. On a condi build, I would have to land multiple skills with an equivalent range and cooldown, then wait ~25 seconds and then, only then, if the damage has fully ticked out, would it equal one power skill. For basically any condi build that can "burst", there's a power alternative that can burst harder and faster and with no risk of it being cleansed or converted.

Power damage is king. Condi is an afterthought.

 

As such, those "safety" stats need to exist. They shouldn't even really be considered safety, just the bare minimum compensation for playing such an inferior method of damage.

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27 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

WvW is already basically all power damage outside of very small roaming fights, and even in roaming.

A full power soulbeast rapid fire combo deals .. I think 30k damage? True Shot hits for ~6-7k and getting knocked through a Test of Faith takes half a health bar. On a power build, I can one-shot players with a ~20k+ grenade barrage combo in less than a second. On a condi build, I would have to land multiple skills with an equivalent range and cooldown, then wait ~25 seconds and then, only then, if the damage has fully ticked out, would it equal one power skill. For basically any condi build that can "burst", there's a power alternative that can burst harder and faster and with no risk of it being cleansed or converted.

Power damage is king. Condi is an afterthought.

 

As such, those "safety" stats need to exist. They shouldn't even really be considered safety, just the bare minimum compensation for playing such an inferior method of damage.

So you compare one of the most busted power builds that need a nerf nuke to some pepe condi build? Why you won't compare grenade barrage lovers to idk? bunker core condi necro? Oh right, it'll melt that grenade abuser or force it to run away within seconds.
If condies are so "bad" and "weak" why every single person in WvW is FORCED to take condi cleanses in any form? Why people still have to invest in any way to "deal" with them?
Condies and Boons are both equally broken and need big nerf bat to the face.

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44 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

WvW is already basically all power damage outside of very small roaming fights, and even in roaming.

A full power soulbeast rapid fire combo deals .. I think 30k damage? True Shot hits for ~6-7k and getting knocked through a Test of Faith takes half a health bar. On a power build, I can one-shot players with a ~20k+ grenade barrage combo in less than a second.

I just hate how people always generalize everything.

I totally agree with those that are saying Celestial is busted - it is. It's so good it makes it pointless to use half the other available stats. But it's only so for a handful of specs and builds, the rest get very little value from it. And even so, most Cele builds are nothing but sustain that you can literally walk away from with little they can do to stop you. 

But on topic of generalizing, I'd like to share these two pics.
11.2k True Shot while I had 3.4k armor.

16.4k Test of Faith while I had 2.5k armor.
So let's nerf the Berserker stat. Nah, remove it completely! If DH can hit that hard that means everything else can, right?
That's what it sounds like to me when people say "Condi is OP", or "Cele needs to be removed." No. Please stop hyper fixating on stats and effects and start considering the whole picture. Changes should just about always be made case by case.

Cele is absolutely overstacked, but it's probably here to stay. Fortunately only a few things get a lot of value from it while the rest are nothing but sponges. It's a problem people are blowing out of proportion even if the argument is valid. 

Edited by Shroud.2307
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3 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Cele is absolutely overstacked, but it's probably here to stay. Fortunately only a few things get a lot of value from it while the rest are nothing but sponges. It's a problem people are blowing out of proportion even if the argument is valid. 

Time to have fun with dem Cele Harbingers, Cele Specter duos, Cele mechanist camp flippers with mini alpha golem and cele tank untamed mwah.

 

I already see it.

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23 hours ago, littledemon.7659 said:

At this point, I would say any change is good. We really need more diversity for builds/comps for WvW, it's been the same for so long that it starts to get boring. Every team needs a FB and a scrapper, and only good damage dealer are scrouges, heralds and DHs. What's worse and more hopeless is that none of the EoD specs are strong enough to get a spot unless they are buffed

You are making a couple of common mistakes here, but I also think they are genuine misunderstandings and something we can help you with:

Tools and stuff:

The first is that you are looking upon the squad as the social organisation. You want to be apart of it and you feel left out. It is an easy and understandable mistake to make. However, the social organisation of a public squad is the voice communication. The tag (and thus the content) is public. The squad is just a tool and its job is to function as a support dispenser. If you are playing certain classes that are kicked out of the squad (or are kicked out of the squad when it is becomming full), it is not because you're not allowed to play with them but rather that you have chosen a class that does not or should not need the support provided.

This is why players on classes like Thieves or Rangers often feel left out. The true answer is simply that they do not need the "meta" party interaction to do what is expected of them. There is often a lack of communication about this because a public tag usually has hundreds of players filtering through the squad during a single evening and they can't stop to explain everything to everyone all of the time. This is why people talk about "meta", discord and voice.

This is why joining your server's community discord is important because that kind of information is ideally conveyed there - assuming that the community is alive enough to help and pass that information on. Such information could be missing because communities are made by players afterall. If people are rude about it, it is likely just a matter of being frustrated with being asked those same questions or challenged on that information hundreds of times a day, day in and day out. It just isn't ideal to help you with that while they play and lead.

If you play a class or build that is expected to be more self-reliant and you demand support, that is simply you playing your chosen class wrong. Many of these reasons are also why we have "meta" builds, sites and so on. They are there to lead you onto something that can be put in the squad without having to stop and explain it over and over.

Classes and stuff:

If you understand those differences you can likely also understand the meta builds and their compositions too. Firebrands are coveted because there simply is so much more crowd-control in the game than there is stability. Firebrands, however, are not needed in every party. They are needed in any party that at any time will attempt to push into the opponents. It is simple math, there is no other alternative as those parties will just get stopped and kited by the opponent. The Scrapper is the preferred secondary support but it is far from the only possible or appreciated option. Few squads have the luxury of getting so many Scrappers that they would turn down a Tempest or to stack other alternatives, like Breakers.

So while the Scrapper is indeed preferred under existing balance, it is far less irreplacable than a Firebrand and a Firebrand is only irreplacable if your party attempts to push into melee. Since any squad that at any time wants to push into melee requires the tag itself to push, the tag will obviously prioritise building such parties around themselves first. This is why you can expect parties 1-5 to be relatively "meta" whereas for parties 6-10 there tends to be more variety and there is even more variety outside of the squad, depending a bit on the total size of the group. If the group is larger than 50, expect to see more parties built to be capable of pushing. Ideally some tags may want to have every party capable of pushing but there is almost always a difference between ideal and reality.

Things like Thieves, Rangers, Staff Elementalists etc., they simply play better together and tags usually do not prioritise micromanaging that. That's why they get dumped in party 10 or get kicked out to sort themselves out. Again, if you expect something else the problem isn't balance and it isn't other people, the problem is you not understanding the choices you've made and in some cases that you simply try to play your class as if it was another class and expect other players to devote themselves to you. The players who devote their time and effort to providing support are players too so they expect whoever they selflessly help to respond in kind. As such, the expectations are not necessarily set by the commander. It is set collectively by the players because no support is going to be interested in supporting another player who plays their class wrong, does not listen and acts selfishly.

To start wrapping up:

That is also a common misconception when joining a public squad. Other players may not always be very sociable or experienced themselves but they are still other players. They are not there to babysit you or to play for you while you act in your own interest. That's the fundamental reason as to why some players get "good" parties and others do not.

That also lays out the meta, where beyond the classes you've mentioned any squad is happy to have Chronos and Breakers too. Everything else is mostly expected to havoc without having the tag micromanage them. They are expected to handle that themselves or in rare cases another player will help them with that. That literally includes every class and spec in the game so no one is actually left out of large scale content.

On the flipside, players who understands this often get to play classes like Thief, Ranger or Ele even at larger scale and are appreciated for it. I do, I am and this is why I can explain it.

The same goes for this post as it is obviously very long and perhaps not the most effectively phrased. However, you can read it and learn or you can choose not to. Your choice there says something about you and nothing about balance or other players. I can explain it, but it is not my job to explain it better than this 😉.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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Celestial is necessary for the new player experience. They may not know what stats to put, so they will go for the jump starter one. After some experience and finding a playstyle, they will trade off some stats for other stats.

Celestial allows players to make trinkets a core for stats, or the armor a core for stats, and then peak out on other stat specializations other than celestial, using the trinkets or weapon and armor. Variety begins with literally having an armor stat with each stat available.

 

One thing celestial suffers at is optimization for a specific role. It is not the best dps, not the best tank, not the best healer, not the best boon keeper, not the best condition damage dealer; BUT, it makes up for it with the boons on itself just up and enough time to make you be versatile in all engagements. 

 

It can be a survival set, and buy you time to find a weakness in the opponent's cool-down rotations. You won't die to one shots, but at the same time, you wont one shot them. Your boons will last just enough to have the opportunity to deal high damage or to resist damage/effects, but not indefinitely. You have good heal to keep you standing up, but not enough to carry a team, etc.

 

Celestial helps players path-find a role, until then, they get to have a taste of each playstyle until they pick their role for the long run.

 

Edit: Celestial also helps you finish fights you wont finish if you were tank, and help you survive fights you wouldn't survive if you went berserker. 

Edited by Avion Blade.4869
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On 10/16/2021 at 3:44 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Cele is a blank slate. It is what you make it out to be.

I can build a Cele warrior with over 4k power with periods of 100% crit rate and well over 200% crit damage for instance. Is it all super powerful? No.

The additional stats help make a few builds work better, but honestly in the scheme of things this is not something to worry about.

Minstrel blobs are more of a problem because of the Feb2020 damage nerfs and not the stats specifically.

Agree. Minstrels is WAAAY more toxic to the game than celestial. There are relatively few builds that really benefit from cele and none of them are particularly dominant in wvw roaming. 
 

Minstrels on the other hand is absolutely dominant and has been the de facto standard for ALL support specs since it was introduced. The Feb2020 damage and CC nerfs only elevated minstrel's value.

It should absolutely be removed from WVW competely - arguably removed from the game completely - or at least the stat combination be reworked, namely, remove the boon duration OR remove either toughness or vitality, so you get only 2 out of {heals, boons, tankiness} instead of getting all 3.

 

Edited by scerevisiae.1972
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10 hours ago, Avion Blade.4869 said:

 

 

Edit: Celestial also helps you finish fights you wont finish if you were tank, and help you survive fights you wouldn't survive if you went berserker. 

and that's the issue. It bring more survivability than it has to for the dmg it can diss on certain setups which I have listed in previous posts. new players, just like me once, will open the wiki at some point and learn about stats and waste some gold doing mistakes, till they perfect their builds and playstyles. There is no need for this safety net of cele garbo (tho fair point made earlier minstrel and trailblazer are bigger safety nets). It rly is the raw stat numbers paired with effects that make extreme use of said stats such as dmg reduction scaling to a decent toughness level, heal per second food and trait options having a strong healing power base, recently added expertise and boon duration improving cover debilitating condies and boond application, a decent chunk of vitality. This is too good for a balanced build. Yes it lacks dmg sometimes, but thats fixable through traits. which is why you say heavy reliance on condition builds via Cele.

 

Just because it's there for the "new players" to use, it doesn't mean veterans won't create obnoxious builds to use and share to be more laid back. Which I can understand and respect as a gamer, but it's simply not fair at this point seeing dominant classes in the roamer WvW meta receive one more tool to establish superiority over other options. Maybe I would run away from a trailblazer core necro as a toughness  Berserker but could try to kill a marauder core guard. Now I meet cele and either if it's a more anti-condi or anti-power build I use, their sustain carries them. Sustain I don't have on dedicated power dmg builds. So yeah take it like a champ if I hit you (not you, an example) with an 8k eviscerate. Run the same build and try to fight your cele build on same skill level.

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2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

and that's the issue. It bring more survivability than it has to for the dmg it can diss on certain setups which I have listed in previous posts. new players, just like me once, will open the wiki at some point and learn about stats and waste some gold doing mistakes, till they perfect their builds and playstyles. There is no need for this safety net of cele garbo (tho fair point made earlier minstrel and trailblazer are bigger safety nets). It rly is the raw stat numbers paired with effects that make extreme use of said stats such as dmg reduction scaling to a decent toughness level, heal per second food and trait options having a strong healing power base, recently added expertise and boon duration improving cover debilitating condies and boond application, a decent chunk of vitality. This is too good for a balanced build. Yes it lacks dmg sometimes, but thats fixable through traits. which is why you say heavy reliance on condition builds via Cele.

 

Just because it's there for the "new players" to use, it doesn't mean veterans won't create obnoxious builds to use and share to be more laid back. Which I can understand and respect as a gamer, but it's simply not fair at this point seeing dominant classes in the roamer WvW meta receive one more tool to establish superiority over other options. Maybe I would run away from a trailblazer core necro as a toughness  Berserker but could try to kill a marauder core guard. Now I meet cele and either if it's a more anti-condi or anti-power build I use, their sustain carries them. Sustain I don't have on dedicated power dmg builds. So yeah take it like a champ if I hit you (not you, an example) with an 8k eviscerate. Run the same build and try to fight your cele build on same skill level.

The builds that can actually utilise these stats have something in common, they are heavily dependent on boons and get countered by corrupt/strip/steal. Same as Zergs atm. So maybe, like shroud and others tried to point out, we should check individualy for builds that fart them left and right without any effort. This was what people talked about when they complained about power creep. Not some power coefficient of a skill or some stat ratio, but builds that allow crazy might/stab/quickness etc. by a single press of a button.

Edited by schloumou.3982
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1 minute ago, schloumou.3982 said:

The builds that can actually utilise these stats have something in common, they are heavily dependent on boons and get countered by corrupt/strip/steal. Same as Zergs atm. So maybe, like shroud and others tried to point out, we should check individualy for builds that fart them left and right without any efford. This was what people talked about when they complained about power creep. Not some power coefficient of a skill but builds that allow crazy might/stab/quickness etc. by a single press of a button.

Cough Guard, cough Ranger, cough Herald, cough Tempest, cough Scrapper, cough Mirage

 

Warrior makes a lot of might too 😯

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