Did these people play the same spec as we did?

[Tseison.4659]

5 hours ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

I think some of ya'll are blowing this way out of proportion. Virtuoso is different and some of you just don't want to admit that a lot of people may just like it. Is it perfect? No. But let's be honest here, neither is any of the other Mesmer specs. They all have fundamental issues.

Some of us are well aware that a handful do like the Virtuoso, however those who’ve main them for such a long time, all we’re doing is speaking up in regards to what changes should be made because it feels incomplete, core traits that are NOT working with the spec and most of them are illusion/clone affecting one’s which have obviously been converted into blades and lastly, just comparing what the other elite specs got than we did. 

The other elite specs and this was mentioned as well that they pretty much got some form of mobility skill, be it teleport, shadow step, dash, lung etc.. let’s be real, if those were being handed out so freely, why mention in the stream that every class got that when realistically Virtuoso didn’t? 

At the end of the day, let US be honest and speak up about the actual tweaks and changes that need to be made because that’s what we in the Mesmer community are gonna “fight” for because we shouldn’t be settling for less and staying silent just because a small patch of “Mesmer casuals” think the Virtuoso is fine and have it’s pretty effects going for it. End of discussion.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

"blowing out of proportion". 

You only need to see the trade offs to see how kitten it is. 

You're better off playing core by a mile. 

[AshkyLicious.4729]

I just dont understand why people that are so pro Virtuoso are against improvements for it? You know that improvements means... making something BETTER?... it will benefit you guys if all of Virtuosos flaws are actually FIXED. Or are you guys not real mesmer players, and are actually afraid of Anet fixing Virtuoso and it gets too OP for you guys to handle? As of peeps never screamed "NERF MESMERS!" before on these forums. Its hard not to feel that peeps are actually playing pretend just to make sure that Virtuoso stays kitten no matter what.

Only thing Ive seen people saying on these threads is "I like Virtuoso, it has its issues but I like it!" So if y'all know it has its issues, why being so against improvements? 

Edited October 26, 2021 by AshkyLicious.4729

[Krysard.1364]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:54 PM, Lethion.8745 said:

 

Look at the comments. It's all Virtuoso. Did they launch a different Virtuoso in some servers because I am losing my mind here.

While it still needs some work, I genuinely believe Virtuoso is the most solid design of any spec yet. In a world of half baked or heavily uninspired specs, virtuoso felt.. completed?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Krysard.1364 said:

While it still needs some work, I genuinely believe Virtuoso is the most solid design of any spec yet. In a world of half baked or heavily uninspired specs, virtuoso felt.. completed?

Virt felt completed? The only thing ANet did was replace clones for blades. It is exactly the same kitten as core mesmer except way worse. 

 

[Krysard.1364]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Virt felt completed? The only thing ANet did was replace clones for blades. It is exactly the same kitten as core mesmer except way worse. 

 

They took the mesmer mechanic and fundamentally changed it to offer something new, while still being reminiscent of the original class mechanic. This is exactly what I would expect from an elite spec. Compare it to ele, where they simply added a new skill that makes 0 sense and has no synergy with ele whatsoever, it's just there so they can call it a new spec. They could give jade sphere or w/e is called to literally any class and it would feel the same. With mesmer they clearly wanted to move away from AI dependency (and so, more freedom of when to shatter) at the cost of giving shatters another telling (now that there is no clones) aka cast animations. All while removing visual clutter, which this game is full of. It shines mesmers on a new light that imo makes plenty of sense and I think they actually needed. I see theres many skeptics but I'm sure virtuoso will turn out to be one of the most fun specs to play this xpac.

[Arewn.2368]

Different communities, different views.

Reddit skews heavily on the casual side, so you'll get opinions that are lighter. Look and feel will be a stronger component of views there.

The gw2 class forums have people who are nore heavily invested in the game and their ideas of how it should work. It also tends to be pretty negative, and the mesmer sub is a particularly strong example of this. So you get harsher opinions that delve more into niche elements of mechanics.

[Xenesis.6389]

4 hours ago, Krysard.1364 said:

While it still needs some work, I genuinely believe Virtuoso is the most solid design of any spec yet. In a world of half baked or heavily uninspired specs, virtuoso felt.. completed?

 

Solid design? maybe because it's a simple design, make clones into projectiles, shatters with a cast time to slow it all down, and give them a bunch of aoes, done. Chrono had continuum split, and mirage had cloak and mirrors, as their game changing mechanics, but the virtuoso? front casting projectile shatters, good luck get those off properly with the expansion of clown specs running circles behind you. The spec was obviously dumbed down for casual players and it's complainers who couldn't handle illusions. In an expansion where movement is also handed out like candy the virtuoso is going to feel like the necro in it.

 

But I don't disagree about the rest of the specs, heavily uninspired in trying to "break the rules" they're also breaking the classes. The only spec that actually looked interesting to me is the Specter looking like a half necro half mesmer funnily enough, who half steals shroud from necros, get shadowstep with every one of their wells with traitable alacrity, lmao. One spec is not enough for me to buy an expansion though...

Edited October 26, 2021 by Xenesis.6389

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, Krysard.1364 said:

They took the mesmer mechanic and fundamentally changed it to offer something new, while still being reminiscent of the original class mechanic. This is exactly what I would expect from an elite spec. Compare it to ele, where they simply added a new skill that makes 0 sense and has no synergy with ele whatsoever, it's just there so they can call it a new spec. They could give jade sphere or w/e is called to literally any class and it would feel the same. With mesmer they clearly wanted to move away from AI dependency (and so, more freedom of when to shatter) at the cost of giving shatters another telling (now that there is no clones) aka cast animations. All while removing visual clutter, which this game is full of. It shines mesmers on a new light that imo makes plenty of sense and I think they actually needed. I see theres many skeptics but I'm sure virtuoso will turn out to be one of the most fun specs to play this xpac.

They didn't change anything. 

Clones=blades, still a resource for the same effects except they're actually worse since they can't provide the tactical defense of clones. 

Since you mentioned ele is the same as if they changed the names of fire attunement to flame attunement. Water attunement to hydro attunement and so on. Put on cast time on attunement changed and called it a day. 

Virt is core mesmer except the f skills are a trash version of core ones. 

 

Virt is trash period and anyone who says otherwise doesn't have a clue regarding mesmers. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[desu.2514]

4 hours ago, Krysard.1364 said:

All while removing visual clutter

have you seen the new shatters and skill animations? I'm under the belief they balanced virt on the understanding the enemy is permanently blind irl 😅🤣 far more clutter than clones that stand around and do non shiny 111 or barely viable shatters. clones are only visual clutter for those who are directionally challenged and unable to tell the difference between AI w move and a player that runs in all directions.

Edited October 26, 2021 by desu.2514

[SkinnyT.5382]

On 10/26/2021 at 4:57 AM, Tseison.4659 said:

Some of us are well aware that a handful do like the Virtuoso, however those who’ve main them for such a long time, all we’re doing is speaking up in regards to what changes should be made because it feels incomplete, core traits that are NOT working with the spec and most of them are illusion/clone affecting one’s which have obviously been converted into blades and lastly, just comparing what the other elite specs got than we did. 

The other elite specs and this was mentioned as well that they pretty much got some form of mobility skill, be it teleport, shadow step, dash, lung etc.. let’s be real, if those were being handed out so freely, why mention in the stream that every class got that when realistically Virtuoso didn’t? 

At the end of the day, let US be honest and speak up about the actual tweaks and changes that need to be made because that’s what we in the Mesmer community are gonna “fight” for because we shouldn’t be settling for less and staying silent just because a small patch of “Mesmer casuals” think the Virtuoso is fine and have it’s pretty effects going for it. End of discussion.

When I said some people are "blowing this way out of proportion" I meant and I'm doubling down on that. You're not one of those people though. Your post is the first one in the Virtuoso thread, and its perfect example of good criticism. You took the Virtuoso for what it is, and made realistic suggestions to make it better without changing it. When I said it wasn't perfect I was referring to it needing adjustments such as the ones you suggested.

The people I'm referring to in my original statement are the people who are coming in the forums and complaining that the class is broken because it doesn't have clones; it's broken because shatters are projectiles; it's broken because it's has aoe attacks; it's broken because it's "dumbed down"; it's broken because of any reason that it functions differently from Mesmer as we have it now.  But guess what? That's the purpose of it. The elite specs are meant to provide different ways to play each class. It's not gonna be for everyone, but doesn't mean it's  trash or that it doesn't function as intended.

Coming to the forums  saying the Spec is meant for casual non Mesmer Main players, who can't manage clones, and just like shinny things, is not a cogent argument for the specs viability.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

The running theme of the reactions to the especs is:

Casuals love them

Non mains love them

Mains hate them with a passion because they are able to point out in excruciating detail all the flaws and where those flaws will keep the spec from performing at a higher level later down the road. 

Non mains are utterly confused by why the mains hate the specs and by the changes the mains want done.

Said non mains then push back against all the feedback from the mains in the feedback threads.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

3 minutes ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

When I said some people are "blowing this way out of proportion" I meant and I'm doubling down on that. You're not one of those people though. Your post is the first one in the Virtuoso thread, and its perfect example of good criticism. You took the Virtuoso for what it is, and made realistic suggestions to make it better without changing it. When I said it wasn't perfect I was referring to it needing adjustments such as the ones you suggested.

The people I'm referring to in my original statement are the people who are coming in the forums and complaining that the class is broken because it doesn't have clones; it's broken because shatters are projectiles; it's broken because it's has aoe attacks; it's broken because it's "dumbed down"; it's broken because of any reason that it functions differently from Mesmer as we have it now.  But guess what? That's the purpose of it. The elite specs are meant to provide different ways to play each class. It's not gonna be for everyone, but doesn't mean it's  trash or that it doesn't function as intended.

Coming to the forums  saying the Spec is meant for casual non Mesmer Main players, who can't manage clones, and just like shinny things, is not a cogent argument for the specs viability.

The spec isn't broken because it doesn't have clones. It is broken because it has nothing replacing them in the sustain and sustain damage department.

Mesmers use clones as defense, deception and they provide sustain damage on condi builds (staff and scepter without clones don't work). 

ANerf didn't thought about it and didn't add anything in compensation.

To add to this the new shatters are the sameish except they do lower damage, require more resource, have high cast times and are strafeable. 

F3 is the perfect example how clueless ANerf is, F3 is both use to setup burst (which you can't on Virt since IP is gone) and rupt - which you can't because of the high cast time. 

Virt also has no mechanic, and the dagger skills have no purpose (it is also the only profession without 5weapon skills on an xpac). 

It is a ranged damage dealer but doesn't have the tools to keep foes at bay and it doesn't have mobility, in fact it is the only spec without mobility on EoD). 

Traits are also bland and for the most part useless.

Virt doesn't need balance, it's a spec dead at birth and requires a total redesign. 

 

[Lethion.8745]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

The running theme of the reactions to the especs is:

Casuals love them

Non mains love them

Mains hate them with a passion because they are able to point out in excruciating detail all the flaws and where those flaws will keep the spec from performing at a higher level later down the road. 

Non mains are utterly confused by why the mains hate the specs and by the changes the mains want done.

Said non mains then push back against all the feedback from the mains in the feedback threads.

That's not true, not in my case at least, I don't main Ele or Ranger but their elite specs are as weak as Virtuoso.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, Lethion.8745 said:

That's not true, not in my case at least, I don't main Ele or Ranger but their elite specs are as weak as Virtuoso.

I encourage you to read through the feedback threads carefully then, because this has been the trend thus far.

[Lethion.8745]

Just now, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I encourage you to read through the feedback threads carefully then, because this has been the trend thus far.

I know what you mean. I took a glance at Engineer thread and they make Mechanist sound like the worst thing that ever happened to this game.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

1 minute ago, Lethion.8745 said:

I know what you mean. I took a glance at Engineer thread and they make Mechanist sound like the worst thing that ever happened to this game.

And then go listen to warrior mains discuss the garbage that is Dragon Trigger (because it is. You can literally jump over the attack, and even then the risk/reward in competitive makes it not worth using).

[Levetty.1279]

23 hours ago, Krysard.1364 said:

They took the mesmer mechanic and fundamentally changed it to offer something new,

If you are just going to lie why even post?

[Dadnir.5038]

20 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Clones=blades, still a resource for the same effects except they're actually worse since they can't provide the tactical defense of clones. 

The main issue is more that the core traits didn't get the memo that clones=blades.

[Arewn.2368]

9 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

And then go listen to warrior mains discuss the garbage that is Dragon Trigger (because it is. You can literally jump over the attack, and even then the risk/reward in competitive makes it not worth using).

Spot the warrior main! 

 

Honestly that's a great way to put it. This round of elites has a high level of dissatisfaction from mains. I think part of it is fuel by general discontent bred by IBS and the content drought. Part because of the divergent direction  they are taking the elites this time around. And part due to legitimate design flaws that veteran class mains are noticing.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Just now, Arewn.2368 said:

Spot the warrior main! 

As if my forum avatar wasn't a dead giveaway? 

Just now, Arewn.2368 said:

Honestly that's a great way to put it. This round of elites has a high level of dissatisfaction from mains. I think part of it is fuel by general discontent bred by IBS and the content drought. Part because of the divergent direction  they are taking the elites this time around. And part due to legitimate design flaws that veteran class mains are noticing.

Yeah, all the mains are spotting the flaws that are glaringly obvious and crippling to the spec while all the casuals and non mains are distracted by either the new shinnies or big numbers on stationary non interactive golems.

[Hirosama Nadasaki.6792]

On 10/26/2021 at 1:02 PM, Krysard.1364 said:

They took the mesmer mechanic and fundamentally changed it to offer something new, while still being reminiscent of the original class mechanic.

 

They didn't. You still build up a resource (blades instead of clones now) to spend them on shatters, which still do exactly the same thing (strike damage, condition damage, daze, and a defensive one); except they do this in an objectively worse way, with large cast times, non-tracking projectiles, block instead of distortion, and having to stack 5 resources instead of 3 for roughly the same damage. The bladesongs are nearly identical to core shatters, and the only differences are flat out nerfs. An e-spec that properly changes the fundamental mechanic of a profession is Scourge, as it removes shroud to instead spend life force on shades and support abilities. Virtuoso removes clones and adds pretty much nothing in return.

 

On 10/26/2021 at 1:02 PM, Krysard.1364 said:

With mesmer they clearly wanted to move away from AI dependency (and so, more freedom of when to shatter)

 

Virtuoso still relies on phantoms, especially now that it has 5 resources to build so it needs the extra illusions from phantoms, so AI dependency is still there. As for freedom of when to shatter, it has been severely reduced in Virtuoso, as you can no longer shatter without illusions, shatters now have cast times, and on top of that you need to be facing your target to shatter, which is *very* clunky and damning in PvP/WvW.

 

On 10/26/2021 at 1:02 PM, Krysard.1364 said:

All while removing visual clutter, which this game is full of.

 

Virtuoso has the most cluttered visual effects across the entirety of mesmer, contesting only with Chronomancer wells. Their attacks are filled with fog and particle effects that quickly fill the screen, especially the shatters as they happen on top and behind the player character, i.e. right in the middle of your screen.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

On 10/17/2021 at 6:35 AM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Three possibilities:
1 - people who have 0 clue about mesmers.
2 - people who play only open world pve.
3 - people who dislike mesmer so they defend virt to get it to stay the kitten it is, so they can score ez kills.

Fourth possibility:

4. They are paid actors.

[Puck.3697]

On 10/16/2021 at 1:59 PM, Lethion.8745 said:

It's not just my opinion. Reactions to Virtuoso is so different in Reddit and forum which makes me suprised.

It's easily explainable. 

People use forums to give negative feedback because it's directed at the Devs. Reddits generally more mixed opinons. 

There were actually quite a few saying they liked virtuoso in a thread on the ele forums when talking about catalyst 

Virtuoso is quite fun and it's flashy. The problems with virt came from simply it does nothing but DPS it has no utility options and ontop of that was paper when it came to sustain. 

Not that the spec wasn't enjoyable. 

Blades defintly need some spicing up. So added sustain, the utilities need some work and it needs some flexibility but it isn't a terrible elite providing it's polished up properly. 

Virt isn't great. But barely any of the new elites are. They all feel weird. Restricted and problematic. 

I think maybe thief is the only one that feels worthwhile the rest are abysmal. Lol. So yeah comparing virt to the rest of em it's fine. But they all should be binned 

Edited October 28, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

At this point, reddit might be saying its good, if only because Virtuoso met the standard of bare competency.  It's the Mendoza line for the EOD specs.  I sat and thought about the other specs for awhile, and as it stands a lot of these specs have a lot of problems that make me not want to play them.  My top 3 for going into EoD blind right now are the Mechanist, the Harbinger, and at third place is... Virtuoso.  I don't expect Virt to do a lot, except for shooting enemies at far range with glowing daggers.  I enjoy the Deadeye for doing the same thing, and it is good to learn new content with a healthy engagement range.