Did these people play the same spec as we did?

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

 

Actually they didn't. The teapot guy actually said the ele first, meanwhile the guy on the bottom left even forgot about the ele and guardian's specs altogether. They basically said that the traits needed to be better for the Virt, which everyone can agree on, and it's not that hard to address when looking at the grand scale of things. It is much different then saying the new mechanic is kittened all together.  They said ele, guard, mesmer, and necro got short end of the stick. With ele being the one who they all agreed needed to have their mechanic addressed. And necro being in the same boat as the mesmer as far as traits. Also this was released before the last beta, so they didn't have actual game play opinions on the last 3 specs.

Outright lying about what was said in the video being quoted is a new tactic. Some people will do anything to make sure Virtuoso stays kitten.

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 10/27/2021 at 4:11 PM, Arewn.2368 said:

Spot the warrior main! 

 

Honestly that's a great way to put it. This round of elites has a high level of dissatisfaction from mains. I think part of it is fuel by general discontent bred by IBS and the content drought. Part because of the divergent direction  they are taking the elites this time around. And part due to legitimate design flaws that veteran class mains are noticing.

you dont have to be a warrior main to know that 5s of channel to hit a player for 6k is garbage. and the fact that it can be strafed, jumped over and sometimes even misses for no reason should get the guy that programmed it fired.
I dont have to be a guardian main to know willbenders traitlines are all dog-kitten.

[Leonidrex.5649]

My beef with virtuoso.
1 it offers nothing new, it does the same kitten core does
2 It actively makes some thing worse, scepter and staff are bad by default, and virtuoso makes them even kittening worse.
3 It is not fixable, numbers will not change the fact that this spec offers nothing so it will release garbage for our open world friends.
At best it will be braindead high dps for raids ( and thats being optimistic )
Most other specs can at least be salvaged by fixing bugs and changing damage/cooldowns/cast-times.

[Lethion.8745]

15 hours ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

 

Actually they didn't. The teapot guy actually said the ele first, meanwhile the guy on the bottom left even forgot about the ele and guardian's specs altogether. They basically said that the traits needed to be better for the Virt, which everyone can agree on, and it's not that hard to address when looking at the grand scale of things. It is much different then saying the new mechanic is kittened all together.  They said ele, guard, mesmer, and necro got short end of the stick. With ele being the one who they all agreed needed to have their mechanic addressed. And necro being in the same boat as the mesmer as far as traits. Also this was released before the last beta, so they didn't have actual game play opinions on the last 3 specs.

As much as I love his content, I don't think Teapot is the go to guy about balance. If you check his older streams, you can see his initial reactions to Virtuoso being "Mesmer finally got a WvW spec." "It's gonna be so OP in WvW" etc., completely forgetting about endless projectile block spam in WvW. He even said that Mesmer and Virtuoso is in exactly where it should be. Also it's hard to see him play anything other than Scourge.

[SkinnyT.5382]

17 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Outright lying about what was said in the video being quoted is a new tactic. Some people will do anything to make sure Virtuoso stays kitten.

The video is right there for everyone to watch. I didn't lie about anything. They had a 15 min segment talking about the specs that got the short end of the stick, and to just take what they said about the virtuoso and put it here without including what they said about the rest it's to literally take what they said out of context.

[Levetty.1279]

2 hours ago, SkinnyT.5382 said:

The video is right there for everyone to watch.

That is how we know you are lying.

[Salt Mode.3780]

Its quite hilarious how the general consensus of the especs are pretty negative with a few people liking several things here and there and which most of them are complementing the visuals not the gameplay itself. Yet there are people who are defending ANET's choices in coming up with these horrid tradeoffs and putting stuff out there that is not "IMPACTFUL". 

Just because ANET devs create something doesn't mean its good, its like just because you are a chef doesn't mean every dish you cook is good and this is an example of that. It just mind boggles me that there are people defending ANET and allowing them to go down this path. 

Blindly white knighting will just hurt the game more whether or not criticism is constructive or not its still backed up by players who have played the class for countless hours, supported ANET for countless years, and not wanting to see their game go to craps when there are other games out there being released or other expansions released.

[Reteiel.7063]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Its quite hilarious how the general consensus of the especs are pretty negative with a few people liking several things here and there and which most of them are complementing the visuals not the gameplay itself. Yet there are people who are defending ANET's choices in coming up with these horrid tradeoffs and putting stuff out there that is not "IMPACTFUL".

I feel like by people you mean just one person who goes from thread to thread to argue with everyone and you are just better off ignoring. Most of people are just trying to argue their perspective in a reasnoable way, no need to get worked up.

[Salt Mode.3780]

37 minutes ago, Reteiel.7063 said:

I feel like by people you mean just one person who goes from thread to thread to argue with everyone and you are just better off ignoring. Most of people are just trying to argue their perspective in a reasnoable way, no need to get worked up.

No not really worked up about it but its funny how without naming that ONE person that I already know who you are talking about.

[HumanComplex.1648]

A class doesn't have to be super complex to play well in practice. Warrior scales with mechanical skill so its fun to play. I'd rather have different flavor of existing playstyle than them trying to force a new one. Having said that I would have like to see a new playstyle for eod.

F skills need to track and/or they need to be high velocity. The bar for F3 needs to be pistol 5 or better in both cast time and velocity.

f4 should also block for allies that are in it.

Edited November 2, 2021 by HumanComplex.1648

[Sarrs.4831]

imo Virtuoso feels more like a transformation of the class than a bolt-on like the other especs.

[Tseison.4659]

6 minutes ago, Sarrs.4831 said:

imo Virtuoso feels more like a transformation of the class than a bolt-on like the other especs.

I feel the Virtuoso doesn't really "transform" the Mesmer profession into something "new" as the only somewhat "dramatic" change is our illusions/clones in the form of blades. I personally like the blades but yet again, its the same shatters with same effects. If Anet wanted to thoroughly and uniquely change the Mesmer profession or give the Virtuoso a bit of added flavour, they could have:

• Given us Dual Daggers - Main hand + Off hand. A dagger phantasm would look really cool to pair up with any of our other main hand weapons.
• Because they added the "Blade" tooltip on GS and Sword, why not have certain weapon skills be changed or given a charge?
• Shatters could be a mix of range/melee attacks, sort of inspired by Psylocke from the marvel comics.
• OR, because they mixed psionics, blades and music into one, which I think was a poor idea, they could have created a  Minstrel/Bard'esc elite spec, summon bundles in the form of instruments that unlocked a variety of skills (inspired by the Firebrand).

 

[Jables.4659]

On 10/31/2021 at 1:05 AM, Leonidrex.5649 said:

It is not fixable, numbers will not change the fact that this spec offers nothing so it will release garbage for our open world

 

I feel like the e-spec could be salvaged if more respect is given to the loss of clones.  I see so many players on the forums hyper-focusing on all the issues clones give us while completely ignoring how powerful they actually are.  The guiding question should be "We are removing a very powerful aspect of Mesmer, so what are we giving Mesmer in return?".  

Increasing the number of illusions from 3 to 5 was a good start, but it was devalued by increasing the maximum power cost of each shatter.  They could probably justify the removal of Illusionary Persona if they kept the maximum shatter cost at 3 illusions so that after using a shatter, you still have blades left-over to fuel another.  Ranged shatters are nice, but again, why did they feel the need to de-value that bonus by making them projectiles, adding cast times, and forcing the Mesmer to face their target in order to cast?  Remove the hindrances.  

Clone loss results in a large nerf to Mesmer survivability.  I don't believe anyone who claims that they never lose track of the real Mesmer.  It happens repeatedly to varying degrees every single time a competent Mesmer goes in and out of stealth.  Core Mesmer makes up for its terrible mobility by utilizing the synergy between stealth and clones.  Without clones, Virtuoso needs a serious mobility buff.  The sword 3 change is a good start (it needs bug fixes), but they need to take a look at the more atrocious skills that were added with virtuoso and think about how they could be revamped or replaced to provide Virtuoso with more mobility.  The biggest offenders in need of replacement are the elite skill and the large, slow-moving projectile on Dagger (I believe it was Dagger 3).

With all of those changes in place, they could start looking at trait synergy, damage numbers, and the addition of boons and conditions to the spec.  Do I believe that Anet is going to salvage the spec?  Absolutely not, but I would give credit where credit is due if they manage it. 

 

[Puck.3697]

On 10/30/2021 at 10:09 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

"who got screwed the hardest?"
in unison - "virtuoso"

"I remembered virtuoso but forgot about catalyst, so I don't know which one is worse"

Even non mesmer players such as those three can see that virtuoso isn't worth a kitten.
Mesmer players know that it's not only the traits that are the issue.
Again the only two things good about virtuoso is F2 and BR, everything else is trash, traits, dagger, some core weapons (gs, staff, scepter) on virt, the remaining shatters, utilities, elite, heal, concept, blade "mechanic", everything, pure garbage.
 

Im ngl people say 1 specific got it worse but did they? 

Virtuoso although while does nothing to solve it's WvWvW weakness, and defintly isn't a strong candidate for spvp did give mesmers a pure DPS specc with a low skill floor and very high DPS which will defintly be useful to the average player raiding. 

What did willbender bring guardian? Nothing. It's a rip off thief in spvp with no speciality and DH is better then it in PvE. 

Same with untamed. 

There is atleast somewhere you could say you would use virt. There is litterally no where for catalyst untamed or willbender. 

You say garbage this garbage that. Majority of the speccs felt underpowered and as if the new stuff wasn't great. Because they were all undertuned. 

If you buff dagger, it won't be garbage anymore. Nor will it's shatters. This is a numbers problem realistically. 

And they mentioned it felt weak. They said traits need reworking... They opened their speech on the subject saying they aren't talking numbers they know almost all of them were underpowered and need number tuning. 

Your right in virtuoso isn't worth kitten. But almost all the elites aren't worth kitten lol, they are all bad 😂😂

Edited November 5, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

41 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Im ngl people say 1 specific got it worse but did they? 

Virtuoso although while does nothing to solve it's WvWvW weakness, and defintly isn't a strong candidate for spvp did give mesmers a pure DPS specc with a low skill floor and very high DPS which will defintly be useful to the average player raiding. 

What did willbender bring guardian? Nothing. It's a rip off thief in spvp with no speciality and DH is better then it in PvE. 

Same with untamed. 

There is atleast somewhere you could say you would use virt. There is litterally no where for catalyst untamed or willbender. 

You say garbage this garbage that. Majority of the speccs felt underpowered and as if the new stuff wasn't great. Because they were all undertuned. 

If you buff dagger, it won't be garbage anymore. Nor will it's shatters. This is a numbers problem realistically. 

And they mentioned it felt weak. They said traits need reworking... They opened their speech on the subject saying they aren't talking numbers they know almost all of them were underpowered and need number tuning. 

Your right in virtuoso isn't worth kitten. But almost all the elites aren't worth kitten lol, they are all bad 😂😂

Again it isnt a numbers issue. 

ANerf removed clones and replace them with nothing. There is no deception nor defense, they didn't give nothing in return. 

They gave 5 blades instead of 3 clones when mesmer is design around the number 3 not 5, they tried to band-aid this crap idea by forcing a blade generation grandmaster trait which again is a failed design because it doesn't promote variety from the gameplay perspective, it doesn't matter which one you choose you'll play Virt all the same. 

Dagger design is garbage, all projectiles, the best skill of the bunch is negated entirely by a single aegis. The 2 you're forced to pb, which with a ranged spec is nonsense. 

Talking about ranged there are no good ranged weapons on Virt due to the inexistence of clones. 

And there are no cc, no boons, no ports, nothing, to keep you ranged. 

The shatters até the same except way worse than core. 3 has no purpose, its the single most pathetic skill design in gw history, an interrupt with 1sec cast time+travel time. 

4 will get you killed more than it will help due to the animation and short block time + reveal, stun, etc. 

1 is a kind of rapid fire except without tracking, you might be hit by the first projectile but you avoid the rest, this after years of mesmer developing a good clone position so they all blow at the same time. 

Virt's concept is like it was proposed by a 4y.o. You know the "it is this and that and also that". 

It doesn't matter if they buff the numbers into heaven, the spec is and will be trash designwise. 

And once more the only skills worth anything are F2 and BR. 

[Jables.4659]

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Im ngl people say 1 specific got it worse but did they?

I agree that Virtuoso was far from the only elite spec to get shafted, but this is the Mesmer forum, hence the focus on Mesmer's elite spec.  Hyperbole is strong in every section of the GW2 forums, there's not much that can be done about it.

[Levetty.1279]

3 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Im ngl people say 1 specific got it worse but did they? 

Virtuoso although while does nothing to solve it's WvWvW weakness, and defintly isn't a strong candidate for spvp did give mesmers a pure DPS specc with a low skill floor and very high DPS which will defintly be useful to the average player raiding. 

What did willbender bring guardian? Nothing. It's a rip off thief in spvp with no speciality and DH is better then it in PvE. 

Same with untamed. 

There is atleast somewhere you could say you would use virt. There is litterally no where for catalyst untamed or willbender. 

You say garbage this garbage that. Majority of the speccs felt underpowered and as if the new stuff wasn't great. Because they were all undertuned. 

If you buff dagger, it won't be garbage anymore. Nor will it's shatters. This is a numbers problem realistically. 

And they mentioned it felt weak. They said traits need reworking... They opened their speech on the subject saying they aren't talking numbers they know almost all of them were underpowered and need number tuning. 

Your right in virtuoso isn't worth kitten. But almost all the elites aren't worth kitten lol, they are all bad 😂😂

The problem is yeah it can beat up a golem well but as they said in the video its extremely simple and uninteresting to play.  No boon generation, bland traits, 3 condition traits that just aren't supported by the kit, no interesting synergy between its own kit or with core Mesmer. A copy and paste of chronophantasma with all of the problems but non of the good parts. The increase to stocking 5 clones is negated by lack of IP and the power coefficients. Shatters that are the same but worse.

There is also nowhere for the spec to grow due to limited skill amount, no elite spec mechanic and no synergy with core Mesmer.

Even in the pve areas outside of golem bullying its outclassed by the other two elite specs.

[Puck.3697]

8 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Again it isnt a numbers issue. 

ANerf removed clones and replace them with nothing. There is no deception nor defense, they didn't give nothing in return. 

They gave 5 blades instead of 3 clones when mesmer is design around the number 3 not 5, they tried to band-aid this crap idea by forcing a blade generation grandmaster trait which again is a failed design because it doesn't promote variety from the gameplay perspective, it doesn't matter which one you choose you'll play Virt all the same. 

Dagger design is garbage, all projectiles, the best skill of the bunch is negated entirely by a single aegis. The 2 you're forced to pb, which with a ranged spec is nonsense. 

Talking about ranged there are no good ranged weapons on Virt due to the inexistence of clones. 

And there are no cc, no boons, no ports, nothing, to keep you ranged. 

The shatters até the same except way worse than core. 3 has no purpose, its the single most pathetic skill design in gw history, an interrupt with 1sec cast time+travel time. 

4 will get you killed more than it will help due to the animation and short block time + reveal, stun, etc. 

1 is a kind of rapid fire except without tracking, you might be hit by the first projectile but you avoid the rest, this after years of mesmer developing a good clone position so they all blow at the same time. 

Virt's concept is like it was proposed by a 4y.o. You know the "it is this and that and also that". 

It doesn't matter if they buff the numbers into heaven, the spec is and will be trash designwise. 

And once more the only skills worth anything are F2 and BR. 

and i do agree, the Blade mechanics.. is effectively identical to what the clones do its just without a clone animation they retained the exact same Mechanic. Just without the Clone AI effectively. I was Personally hoping to see Hexs Not Blades not shatters. but a More control based Mesmer With Set up and Burst.

Ranged gameplay was never gonna Work.. it was gonna be a Melee Glass Cannon. they always are realistically, ranged gameplay is done very badly in GW2

What we got is Dissapointing. the design isnt great. but in all honesty. i cant say its the only offender here.

Untamed Offers 0 Utility, no Boons Slightly more CC However overall very weak. While doing 18k DPS Less then Virt anyway so it just brings The same problems as Virt does currently.. it gained no mechanic. Which Cannot be utilised by ranged Pets or any other weapon bar hammer.

Willbenders in the same position realistically.

Im not saying virts good. im saying that Several are just as bad realistically.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

9 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

and i do agree, the Blade mechanics.. is effectively identical to what the clones do its just without a clone animation they retained the exact same Mechanic. Just without the Clone AI effectively. I was Personally hoping to see Hexs Not Blades not shatters. but a More control based Mesmer With Set up and Burst.

Ranged gameplay was never gonna Work.. it was gonna be a Melee Glass Cannon. they always are realistically, ranged gameplay is done very badly in GW2

What we got is Dissapointing. the design isnt great. but in all honesty. i cant say its the only offender here.

Untamed Offers 0 Utility, no Boons Slightly more CC However overall very weak. While doing 18k DPS Less then Virt anyway so it just brings The same problems as Virt does currently.. it gained no mechanic. Which Cannot be utilised by ranged Pets or any other weapon bar hammer.

Willbenders in the same position realistically.

Im not saying virts good. im saying that Several are just as bad realistically.

The fact that untamed mechanic only works on hammer and spectre modal mechanic only works on scepter further proves the point. This xpac is nothing but a cash grab, it was rushed, half-assed and has 0 thought put unto it. 

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

The fact that untamed mechanic only works on hammer and spectre modal mechanic only works on scepter further proves the point. This xpac is nothing but a cash grab, it was rushed, half-assed and has 0 thought put unto it. 

Tbh.. Spectres Modal Mechanic is normal. we saw this with Holos Sword as a example.

Untamed mechanic i think the issue is.. its just a Pure DPS Kit effectively.. which every other ranger weapon currently is so its Worthless to thje weapon kit.. you can fully see its Entire Design Kit was basically to give hammer DPS while having CC.

Imho, if they made unleashed work like Druid form. u just pressF5 to activate a Form, then Swap the Unleashed to be the CC Additions and Hammer a Pure weapon kit. it'd be a fast fix.

[Xenash.1245]

Every thread is same thing, if someone likes a spec someone else doesn't they're a casual. Personally I like the virtuoso but I can understand why others might not especially since it feels like the spec still needs some more work, can't we all be friends.

[Puck.3697]

11 minutes ago, Xenash.1245 said:

Every thread is same thing, if someone likes a spec someone else doesn't they're a casual. Personally I like the virtuoso but I can understand why others might not especially since it feels like the spec still needs some more work, can't we all be friends.

Sadly it won't work like that, purely because if the especc gets enough people saying they like it they will put it down to a preference thing. 

People fighting against it won't Anet to see everyone hates it therefore providing a justification for demanding a rework. 

No ones gonna act friendly on this or accept people do like it because of that 

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Sadly it won't work like that, purely because if the especc gets enough people saying they like it they will put it down to a preference thing. 

People fighting against it won't Anet to see everyone hates it therefore providing a justification for demanding a rework. 

No ones gonna act friendly on this or accept people do like it because of that 

 

 

Well, there is a big assumption that Anet is basing their decisions to change specs because of biased opinions on the forum. That's not likely how it works because I have no doubt Anet will do everything they can to make the concept acceptable to enough players before trashing it and doing a rework as players are continually calling for here. The only way people will get taken seriously on the forum is with "good feedback" ... and clearly there is very little of that happening here. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

I don't know... If I was in ANerf's position I would rather take the opinions on why a spec is trash, especially from top players such as helseth and Jazz instead of compliments on how cool it is and minor changes. 

 

[Tseison.4659]

There's been plenty of positive/helpful feedback on the Virtuoso Feedback Thread and it was nice that they directly replied to my comment in the recent Beta 3 stream on Youtube in regards to if they actually read the threads (mainly on Virtuoso) and if they'll be applying any changes. Now take in mind in that moment they did say they would make "small changes" which I personally think is unacceptable & vague if that's the attitude they'll be having not only for changes to the Virtuoso but to the other elite specs because from now until February, they have a lot of work to do and we'd rather see significant changes than small ones.