Did these people play the same spec as we did?

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I don't know... If I was in ANerf's position I would rather take the opinions on why a spec is trash, especially from top players such as helseth and Jazz instead of compliments on how cool it is and minor changes. 

 

Sure you would ... you're one of the most obviously dissatisfied people on this espec and you have a bias to complain about it every opportunity you get. The question is if you were Anet, why would you do that instead of just following the process you already have to make class changes?

See, the fact is that despite all the things you dislike about it, what is clear is that at SOME level, Anet has made this concept meet SOME sort of criteria for it that they find acceptable enough to reveal it to us. We aren't in 'concept' mode anymore. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, there is a big assumption that Anet is basing their decisions to change specs because of biased opinions on the forum. That's not likely how it works because I have no doubt Anet will do everything they can to make the concept acceptable to enough players before trashing it and doing a rework as players are continually calling for here. The only way people will get taken seriously on the forum is with "good feedback" ... and clearly there is very little of that happening here. 

Well given the fact these speccs are in development and are being beta'd on behalf of collecting feedback and data. 

The inclination would be that they're reading feedback and looking for ways to improve it otherwise there's no point open beta testing em, they coulda close beta tested it all and avoided this huge mess of doomstalk. 

Now at the end of the day. In 99% of cases regardless how good or bad it is, the opinons on a design will be split, thus because we are all different we all play the game in different ways and we all have different goals within this game. Ontop of that we have our own tastes in preference. 

So if you get a split reaction to a design, its more favourable. This is because it's the expected response when mass testing something. Some will like it some will not. 

However. If you get 100% negative this is generally meaning that the specc has a huge flaw and needs some form of changing. I.e the one the people against said elite specc want to happen. 

Now ofcourse there's more then just forum opinons when it comes to where they take feedback from. 

Reddit, EoD beta discussions, proffession forums, play rates, win rates, balance and more will all basically build up to the feedback they're trying to get from the beta testing. 

There's plenty of good feedback, the issue is some people think being negative = bad feedback. It's simply not. Some players just seem to accept a very low standard bar from their games. 

At the end of the day the problems with the elites are vast, now ofcourse. If we go back to PoF the reaction to the elites were also quite negative. This is because simply:

They would have worked the specc to a point frozen a copy of it and launched that, which means the elite you tested, is already outdated compared to what it actually was on their side. They don't just keep developing til half hour prior and quickly swap it. 

They'd likely frozen these speccs in their design the day they announced the betas were happening months and months ago. So what we tested was miles behind where it was on their side. 

They just wanted stats. Effectively. Some just react louder then others to things very quickly. 

However, they will look at wide spread opinons for example you see in alot of feedback from even wooden potatoes and more that say alot of these speccs he can't see the actual solid design base he saw in the prior ones. Some of them don't feel like they have had a proper theme going on 

Maybe the polishing etc etc will remove those flaws. But your correct in many ways, alot of feedback defintly is missing the mark of what they actually need. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure you would ... you're one of the most obviously dissatisfied people on this espec and you have a bias to complain about it every opportunity you get. The question is if you were Anet, why would you do that instead of just following the process you already have to make class changes?

See, the fact is that despite all the things you dislike about it, what is clear is that at SOME level, Anet has made this concept meet SOME sort of criteria for it that they find acceptable enough to reveal it to us. We aren't in 'concept' mode anymore. 

Everytime I say why I dislike it I say the reasons why it doesn't work. 

On the other hand you and people who like it never say the reasons why it does work, all I see is its fun to play, I like purple animations and ANet can't do no wrong they're gods. 

 

Yes sadly we're not in concept anymore because the concept sucks balls (and it's not only my opinion, even WP who is a GW's fan boy says it. 

[Xenash.1245]

4 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Everytime I say why I dislike it I say the reasons why it doesn't work. 

On the other hand you and people who like it never say the reasons why it does work, all I see is its fun to play, I like purple animations and ANet can't do no wrong they're gods. 

 

Yes sadly we're not in concept anymore because the concept sucks balls (and it's not only my opinion, even WP who is a GW's fan boy says it. 

I enjoy the concept of the class but do agree that it needs work, I'm personally just not in the camp of thinking it's a lost cause. But that's just my stance on the whole matter if that's anything to you.

I do agree with things like the utility skills for the spec being rather lackluster outside blade renewal, and that I again personally don't see much of a reason to use their heal skill. When ether feast works surprisingly well with the blade mechanic. There's other issues of course, I'm just throwing a few out there to try and convey that I get it but that I still like the concept of the spec.

[Puck.3697]

3 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

I don't know... If I was in ANerf's position I would rather take the opinions on why a spec is trash, especially from top players such as helseth and Jazz instead of compliments on how cool it is and minor changes

You can't really take either and here's basically why. 

Helseth and jazz as high end  competitive players are basically going to want virt to excel in the content they do, because their focus is winning not entirely enjoyment. 

Same as a average player on balance is never entirely believable because they aren't maximising the skill cap so things can look weaker. 

Same for pvers and pvpers everyone has a natural bias. And that is they want their favourite proffession to be top 1% material. 

Top players will always have a issue with design. Why? Because most things are designed for a average players enjoyment. Not a bleeding edge players enjoyment. No successful game builds their game off the bleeding edge players opinons. 

WoW would have died years ago if they did what mythic raiders wanted as a example here. 

When you take feedback you have to read between the lines and you have to know what's causing the problem. As a example: was spectre actually fun or did the fact it was overpowered make people have fun. Can you take all the positive feedback around it seriously as a proffession doing 51k DPS without hitting the target is going to be considered fun. When these things are tuned. Will they still enjoy it. 

You don't make changes based on pure feedback. And every group is important when it's feedback 

Remember this. They annoy bleeding edge players  they lose 20 player's 

They annoy casual players they lose hundreds of thousands. 

There's 100x more casual players then pro players. The casual players keep this game alive so u can't just ignore their feedback and make this game for the bleeding edge. The game doesn't have the audience to justify that. 

2 hours ago, Tseison.4659 said:

There's been plenty of positive/helpful feedback on the Virtuoso Feedback Thread and it was nice that they directly replied to my comment in the recent Beta 3 stream on Youtube in regards to if they actually read the threads (mainly on Virtuoso) and if they'll be applying any changes. Now take in mind in that moment they did say they would make "small changes" which I personally think is unacceptable & vague if that's the attitude they'll be having not only for changes to the Virtuoso but to the other elite specs because from now until February, they have a lot of work to do and we'd rather see significant changes than small ones

You are correct there is. If you it all there's lots of good posts. 

And hopefully 4th beta will show Anet has used some of that to improve the specc but I'm sure not everyone will be happy. 

Virt is effectively a glass cannon DPS. And yes its blade mechanics need to be better etc etc. But the likelyhood this is gonna be a successful PvP specc is soo unlikely. 

It may become a successful WvWvW specc providing dagger gets the changes it needs. Being ranged is a major advantage in WvWvW. And providing it does the DPS and gets some utility it will be a strong PvE candidate

But any spvper won't like that news. 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Well given the fact these speccs are in development and are being beta'd on behalf of collecting feedback and data. 

 

Sure and I'm not disputing that. I'm talking about the quality of the feedback being given. Yes, Virtuoso isn't perfect, but it's not the trash that some people continue to believe it is either. For some reason, people think purely trashing on something makes the argument to change it more compelling. It doesn't. If anything, I bet that 'feedback' is just lost as noise. I mean, what does Anet realistically take from being told to simply trash the whole spec and start over? My bet: NOTHING.

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Everytime I say why I dislike it I say the reasons why it doesn't work. 

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely subjective and biased or answer the question I asked you. Again, we are past concept stage ... if you are still hungup about how bad the concept is, then the quality and relevance of your feedback is pretty low. I have no doubt it's blades, bladesongs and all that ... if you want to really contribute to making it better, you accept that for what it is and work from there ... just like Anet is going to do. Either be part of the efforts ... or part of the noise. 

Edited November 6, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Salt Mode.3780]

Its the fact that none of these specs were tested within ranges of where they can be worked significantly. All the "beta" testing are close to when the expansion is released giving little room for any feed back or real changes. Also these "beta" testing are limited to stats/rune and sigils that you are able to use. THAT ISNT REAL TESTING.

If anything it should've had a Alpha testing before Beta testing. Or at least a concept thrown out there for people to bring in ideas so ANET devs have a general consensus of where the direction of players are leaning towards to instead of this "negative" feedback.

There are even player based concepts and ideas that many worked hard on which are well though through in terms of how it worked but its clear to see ANET time again and again just ignore and continue on with doing what they need to do.

Like for example Mirage dodge, the biggest problem with Mirage dodge was the interaction with IH, instead of putting a ICD into PvP and WvW game modes they just straight up removed the dodge in addition with nerfing the condi the staff produced as well as the previous nerfs like staff warlock only summoning 1 instead of 2. 

They dont revert the nerfs they had made in compensation with the 1 dodge nerfed and what ends up happening is the class continues to get weaker and weaker.

You nerfed A because C was performing too strong but then instead of nerfing C you went and removed B while keeping A at a nerfed state.

Again just because they make the game doesn't mean its automatically good or they know what is good, if that is the case WoW wouldn't be in the state that it is in now.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

13 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure and I'm not disputing that. I'm talking about the quality of the feedback being given. Yes, Virtuoso isn't perfect, but it's not the trash that some people continue to believe it is either. For some reason, people think purely trashing on something makes the argument to change it more compelling. It doesn't. If anything, I bet that 'feedback' is just lost as noise. I mean, what does Anet realistically take from being told to simply trash the whole spec and start over? My bet: NOTHING.

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely subjective and biased or answer the question I asked you. Again, we are past concept stage ... if you are still hungup about how bad the concept is, then the quality and relevance of your feedback is pretty low. I have no doubt it's blades, bladesongs and all that ... if you want to really contribute to making it better, you accept that for what it is and work from there ... just like Anet is going to do. Either be part of the efforts ... or part of the noise. 

Actually I gave suggestions in some threads, but can give some here

Replace the names of F skills into something that doesn't involve music. 

Reduce the number of blades to 3 or keep it but reduce the number of shatter resources to 3.

Change the animations, F3 to F1 so the damage is delivered in one package. 

Change animation F1 to F3 so the daze simulates the line up dazes of clones. Reduce the cast time to 1/4 and travel time. 

Overall reduce either the travel time or cast time of shatters. 

Dish the damage portion of F4, up the block for 1sec each blade consumed + 2sec baseline. 

F4 skill flips and allows you to explode it causing damage. The more block time remaining more damage. 

F1 and F2 are no longer projectiles. 

Dagger 2 moves faster and dish the gimmicky trash of looking down at closed range, knock back 

Dagger 3 moves faster, does projectiles faster and doesn't disappear with one aegis, each projectile cripples. 

Dagger 1 increase damage. 

Come up with a gimmick to alter the gameplay otherwise this is just core mesmer v -2

Rework traits, all of them., mandatory minor 25% speed trait. 

Rework heal, utilities and elite plenty of suggestions out there. 

BR now stunbreaks, up the CD. 

GS2, staff and scepter autos change with virt and do more damage. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

14 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

You can't really take either and here's basically why. 

Helseth and jazz as high end  competitive players are basically going to want virt to excel in the content they do, because their focus is winning not entirely enjoyment. 

Same as a average player on balance is never entirely believable because they aren't maximising the skill cap so things can look weaker. 

Same for pvers and pvpers everyone has a natural bias. And that is they want their favourite proffession to be top 1% material. 

Top players will always have a issue with design. Why? Because most things are designed for a average players enjoyment. Not a bleeding edge players enjoyment. No successful game builds their game off the bleeding edge players opinons. 

WoW would have died years ago if they did what mythic raiders wanted as a example here. 

When you take feedback you have to read between the lines and you have to know what's causing the problem. As a example: was spectre actually fun or did the fact it was overpowered make people have fun. Can you take all the positive feedback around it seriously as a proffession doing 51k DPS without hitting the target is going to be considered fun. When these things are tuned. Will they still enjoy it. 

You don't make changes based on pure feedback. And every group is important when it's feedback 

Remember this. They annoy bleeding edge players  they lose 20 player's 

They annoy casual players they lose hundreds of thousands. 

There's 100x more casual players then pro players. The casual players keep this game alive so u can't just ignore their feedback and make this game for the bleeding edge. The game doesn't have the audience to justify that. 

You are correct there is. If you it all there's lots of good posts. 

And hopefully 4th beta will show Anet has used some of that to improve the specc but I'm sure not everyone will be happy. 

Virt is effectively a glass cannon DPS. And yes its blade mechanics need to be better etc etc. But the likelyhood this is gonna be a successful PvP specc is soo unlikely. 

It may become a successful WvWvW specc providing dagger gets the changes it needs. Being ranged is a major advantage in WvWvW. And providing it does the DPS and gets some utility it will be a strong PvE candidate

But any spvper won't like that news. 

You're wrong. 

If you see anything by jazz you know she's pretty fair and had in the past advocate for mesmer nerfs. 

Plus she's probably the most knowledgeable person on mesmer out there. If you just ignore someone like her in detriment of a someone that doesn't even plays mesmer, and let's face it, most people who like Virt never touched mesmer before, you're shooting yourself on the foot. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

That is one of the biggest issue with Virtuoso, mixed reviews with people who never touched Mesmers and are finally touching it because its nothing like a Mesmer. 

Most people who do main Mesmer had always advocated for nerfs that will not completely destroy the class, for example instead of removing a dodge put ICD on IH or how about remove that ability to evade while CCed etc. There had been tons of advocate for nerfs and this has always been what Mesmer has, its always a negative tradeoff.

[Hallow.7368]

15 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure and I'm not disputing that. I'm talking about the quality of the feedback being given. Yes, Virtuoso isn't perfect, but it's not the trash that some people continue to believe it is either. For some reason, people think purely trashing on something makes the argument to change it more compelling. It doesn't. If anything, I bet that 'feedback' is just lost as noise. I mean, what does Anet realistically take from being told to simply trash the whole spec and start over? My bet: NOTHING.

Sure, but that doesn't change the fact that it's extremely subjective and biased or answer the question I asked you. Again, we are past concept stage ... if you are still hungup about how bad the concept is, then the quality and relevance of your feedback is pretty low. I have no doubt it's blades, bladesongs and all that ... if you want to really contribute to making it better, you accept that for what it is and work from there ... just like Anet is going to do. Either be part of the efforts ... or part of the noise. 

This is a class forum idk what you're expecting but I don't think there's a single class forum that isn't endlessly complaining about their class. Weaver is good right now for example, but if one were to read the elementalist forum they would only see endless threads of people saying it's not even a class at this point and that they're going to quit. Sometimes the forums have solid advice, but 9 times out of 10 it's just the vocal majority who like to pretend that they're good and everyone else is bad and that the people who like a class or espec that they deem complete garbage only play to erp or something. I think it's safe to assume that threads like this one go largely ignored by the devs.

[Salt Mode.3780]

5 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

This is a class forum idk what you're expecting but I don't think there's a single class forum that isn't endlessly complaining about their class. Weaver is good right now for example, but if one were to read the elementalist forum they would only see endless threads of people saying it's not even a class at this point and that they're going to quit. Sometimes the forums have solid advice, but 9 times out of 10 it's just the vocal majority who like to pretend that they're good and everyone else is bad and that the people who like a class or espec that they deem complete garbage only play to erp or something. I think it's safe to assume that threads like this one go largely ignored by the devs.

See people like you fail to actually read previous patch notes to see what damage was actually done and why players are frustrated with their class. Maybe before simply reading what people have to say probably should read what they have done to the class before jumping into the conclusion that people are complaining for the sake of it. No doubt there are sections where the complaints have no merits but generally over the past few years and extremely delayed balance patches it has been lackluster and detrimental to the class for no reason.

Then again its not hard to filter trolls in forums so there is that.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Raizel.1839]

On 10/16/2021 at 9:35 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Three possibilities:
1 - people who have 0 clue about mesmers.
2 - people who play only open world pve.
3 - people who dislike mesmer so they defend virt to get it to stay the kitten it is, so they can score ez kills.

4 - people who played mesmer (chrono and mirage) few times, didn't like it because it was too complex to play efficiently, and liked virtuoso instead because it seems easier at first approach.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Raizel.1839

[Salt Mode.3780]

Imagine people thinking mirage is complicated to play.....

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

1 hour ago, Raizel.1839 said:

4 - people who played mesmer (chrono and mirage) few times, didn't like it because it was too complex to play efficiently, and liked virtuoso instead because it seems easier at first approach.

So it fits point 1.

[Salt Mode.3780]

There is a difference between complexity and mechanics, in terms of complexity its harder to play Virtuoso then it is to play Mirage considering for Mirage most of your dps comes from leaving your clones alive whereas Virtuoso you actively want to generate 5 blades to deal the shatter damage. 

Again fact that the Shatters for Virtuoso is casted and is telegraphed instead of following target.....

Again people not know Mesmer and how it works making comment...its as clear as Day and Night...lol....

Edited November 7, 2021 by Salt Mode.3780

[Raizel.1839]

1 hour ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So it fits point 1.

No, 0 is someone who never played mesmer at all, point 4 maybe is 0.5 or whatever number.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Raizel.1839

[Levetty.1279]

2 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Imagine people thinking mirage is complicated to play.....

Dude there was like a clone and now my head hurts.

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

So it fits point 1.

Someone finding a class complex does NOT mean they have zero clue about it. In fact, being able to assess a class being complex (because it's a relative measure based on a comparison to other classes) suggests that player has a WIDE experience with most of the other classes in the game. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Hallow.7368]

7 hours ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

See people like you fail to actually read previous patch notes to see what damage was actually done and why players are frustrated with their class. Maybe before simply reading what people have to say probably should read what they have done to the class before jumping into the conclusion that people are complaining for the sake of it. No doubt there are sections where the complaints have no merits but generally over the past few years and extremely delayed balance patches it has been lackluster and detrimental to the class for no reason.

Then again its not hard to filter trolls in forums so there is that.

Then explain to me what purpose this post serves. 

They are complaining about the balance of a espec that is still in beta 4 months from release. I wouldn't think it needs to be said, but when something is in beta it is still highly susceptible to change. If you don't like the aesthetics thats whatever dude the game and espec isnt tailor made to you, but other people apparently do like how the class looks. He's also complaining about balance saying things like "open world enemies kill me" etc etc all that's useless noise because the tuning is likely to change.

[Xenash.1245]

14 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You're wrong. 

If you see anything by jazz you know she's pretty fair and had in the past advocate for mesmer nerfs. 

Plus she's probably the most knowledgeable person on mesmer out there. If you just ignore someone like her in detriment of a someone that doesn't even plays mesmer, and let's face it, most people who like Virt never touched mesmer before, you're shooting yourself on the foot. 

Yes it's good to not be dismissive about what someone else to say, but that should be something that's given to everyone including the people in question that like the new elite spec.

[Puck.3697]

14 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You're wrong. 

If you see anything by jazz you know she's pretty fair and had in the past advocate for mesmer nerfs. 

Plus she's probably the most knowledgeable person on mesmer out there. If you just ignore someone like her in detriment of a someone that doesn't even plays mesmer, and let's face it, most people who like Virt never touched mesmer before, you're shooting yourself on the foot. 

I didn't say ignore her. I said more then one type of player matters. 

Depends on who you are, some people want a simple to play flashy specc that puts out high DPS. 

I ain't saying I like virt either, I'm just simply saying some people will like it. 

Edited November 8, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Puck.3697]

On 11/6/2021 at 8:46 PM, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Everytime I say why I dislike it I say the reasons why it doesn't work. 

On the other hand you and people who like it never say the reasons why it does work, all I see is its fun to play, I like purple animations and ANet can't do no wrong they're gods. 

I'd actually like to state, some Have actually Said the reasons they like it.

- Simplicity compared to other mesmer builds this ones very straight forward and Easy to understand.

- Pure DPS with high numbers, weather u like it or not. Some people just like to have high Raw DPS... regardless to if it is or isnt that great. Some people love it, Casual Players rarely care whjere it falls on a totem pole realistically.

- No AI, Its a valid argument. to say you actually like the fact this thing as no AI, it makes Target swapping and More far easier to use, the blade stacks are also higher meaning that you'll cap less Regularly I.E Less Lost when saving em due to a mob almost being dead.

- No Clones. Some people fantasy wise Just dont like the clones.

Sure. Theres Negatives. Yes this Specc does Nothing in SPVP / WvWvW, Yes it adds another build to a Section of the game that mesmer has TONS already in and Does nothing for where its lacking, and those are valid Critics of the spec it fills no niche fot ehspecc.

Chronomancer already offered a Power DPS Option that does pretty much the same DPS as Virt. while having Several other builds to supply soo many other things... virt is Redundent because of that and thats a correct statement. the fact virt offers the Specc ANOTHER pure DPS Build that litterally almost Uses the exact same weapons with a Sluight DPS Increase.. isnt exciting new or adding any options.

In All honesty. Virt was Part of the reason i stopped being sure imma main a Mesmer in the next expansion... i personally dont like it and dont see a place for it. but im afraid to say theres No reasoning given by all players who say they like it is incorrect. the specc needs a Trait overhaul. they need to make the Traits affecting Clones Modal, So When using virt they have Purpose. It needs Some form of Access to some form of utility to give it a Solid place. Dagger Needs to be ALOT better then it was. Its blades Need New unique Effects. not carbon copies of shatters and thats only a few of the things this Elite needs to be changing on.

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Im pretty sure the Elite for Virtuoso needs a overhaul.

[Hallow.7368]

1 hour ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Im pretty sure the Elite for Virtuoso needs a overhaul.

According to what? People clearly liked it. Sorry not sorry that you don't like it? Again it wasn't tailor made for you. They can do what they want with their class design and considering other people's responses from outside this sulk fest it's enjoyable and they've done a fairly good job. I can't see a single reason for them to change anything thematically or gameplay wise for the vocal minority in a class forum that, once again, will find anything and everything to complain about. If they change it what about the people who DO enjoy it and the people that it'll bring to mesmer? The beta was out for what? A week? No one found the optimal way to play it anyways and like I've said tuning isn't final. If you don't end up liking it I hate to tell you, but no one's making you play it. It's not like WoW where every expansion forces the changes from the expansion down your throat. You can still play chrono or mirage or reroll into a different class. Acting like the world and anet's decisions should revolve around you is dumb and doesn't get you anywhere.

Edited November 8, 2021 by Hallow.7368