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Did these people play the same spec as we did?


Lethion.8745

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1 hour ago, Hallow.7368 said:

According to what? People clearly liked it. Sorry not sorry that you don't like it? Again it wasn't tailor made for you. They can do what they want with their class design and considering other people's responses from outside this sulk fest it's enjoyable and they've done a fairly good job. I can't see a single reason for them to change anything thematically or gameplay wise for the vocal minority in a class forum that, once again, will find anything and everything to complain about. If they change it what about the people who DO enjoy it and the people that it'll bring to mesmer? The beta was out for what? A week? No one found the optimal way to play it anyways and like I've said tuning isn't final. If you don't end up liking it I hate to tell you, but no one's making you play it. It's not like WoW where every expansion forces the changes from the expansion down your throat. You can still play chrono or mirage or reroll into a different class. Acting like the world and anet's decisions should revolve around you is dumb and doesn't get you anywhere.

This rant is baseless and pointless, the elite on virtuoso is clunky and full of problems, for one it doesnt hit the target if the target is even slightly elevated.

2nd it could be easily side step

3rd for the damage it does it provides nothing else but just that with the long cooldown it comes with

So before you start your mindless rant please understand how the elite works and the many bugs it has.

I've played the game since release and by now know how the beta work based on previous past 2 expansions, only difference is they have one person making the decisions for balance while many of the previous devs that worked on class base balanced is no longer there. Fact that there are serious issues with how close the release is for EoD and based on simple balance changes in-between balance updates no one is speaking out of their kitten.

Don't need another non Mesmer player coming here telling me that everything is based on my own opinions when I have stated nothing but facts. If you want to troll go to another class thread.

You can continue to rant but I'll end what I need to say here at least towards you.

 

Edited by Salt Mode.3780
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7 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

This rant is baseless and pointless, the elite on virtuoso is clunky and full of problems, for one it doesnt hit the target if the target is even slightly elevated.

2nd it could be easily side step

3rd for the damage it does it provides nothing else but just that with the long cooldown it comes with

So before you start your mindless rant please understand how the elite works and the many bugs it has.

Don't need another non Mesmer player coming here telling me that everything is based on my own opinions when I have stated nothing but facts. If you want to troll go to another class thread.

You can continue to rant but I'll end what I need to say here at least towards you.

 

Rant? What rant? I'm telling you why your crying is pointless and just annoying at this point, lol.

 

And AGAIN it is a BETA. Why are you so butt hurt about bugs in a BETA? You understand what this term means, right? It means THEY ARE NOT READY. If they were they'd be live right now. Your "facts" are based on a week of testing 4-5 months before release when nothing has even been through QA. They gave everyone the privilege of having a glimpse at the upcoming especs and here you are moaning about bugs in a very very early beta build of the espec and claiming that this is grounds for reworking the skills and espec entirely. You either have no idea how development works and don't read anything anyone says unless it's someone else with your perspective or you're just flat out ignorant and the last thing you should be doing is calling what other people are telling you baseless, but you're right it is pointless because you refuse to view it any other way than "woe is me my class sucks and the devs don't listen to me."  

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8 hours ago, Xenash.1245 said:

Yes it's good to not be dismissive about what someone else to say, but that should be something that's given to everyone including the people in question that like the new elite spec.

Again most people who like Virt have no mesmer experience, so they don't know a term of comparison.

That's the equivalent of people demanding nerfs right and left of a profession they don't play, BTW that's how mesmer became an overnerfed profession. 

So yeah, I stand by what I said, ANet should listen to those who main the profession, not those who think Virt is cool and never played mesmer before. 

It's obvious to every mesmer player that Virt will have no place in anything competitive due to how it is built. 

It might be good at pve, but everything is. 

 

@Daddy.8125 it is simpler than mesmer yeah but staying as it is, it will be abandoned in a few weeks because if even mesmers mains can't do good with it, non mesmers will have it much harder.

Pure dps with high numbers, in PvE sure. 

In pvp the damage is pathetic. 

I and plenty others mesmers wanted a cloneless spec, but not this way, this is just a rebranding.

Look at SB that's how you do it, just imagine if they said "rangers don't like pets so we'll just remove them", nothing given to compensate, that's what they did to mesmer.

I mean I already said it - GS2, scepter and staff autos don't work without clones, that's how clueless ANet was while designing virt. 

Edited by Lincolnbeard.1735
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3 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Again most people who like Virt have no mesmer experience, so they don't know a term of comparison.

 

No, you don't know this. It's just something you invented to invalidate other people's opinions you don't agree with while validating your own heavily biased opinion. Somehow you think that's an effective tactic ... except Anet is part of the group of people's opinions you don't agree with. Again, your persistent lack of quality feedback means that if you DID have some valid concerns, they are just going to get ignored. 

And no, not everything is good at PVE just like not everything is good at PVP or WvW, so it's completely reasonable that PVE-focused players find value in Virt where you obviously don't find it. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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51 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, you don't know this. It's just something you invented to invalidate other people's opinions you don't agree with while validating your own heavily biased opinion. Somehow you think that's an effective tactic ... except Anet is part of the group of people's opinions you don't agree with. Again, your persistent lack of quality feedback means that if you DID have some valid concerns, they are just going to get ignored. 

And no, not everything is good at PVE just like not everything is good at PVP or WvW, so it's completely reasonable that PVE-focused players find value in Virt where you obviously don't find it. 

The most common thing is people both here and reddit saying "I never liked mesmer but I like Virt", "I don't know how to play mesmer but Virt is straightforward" and kitten like that. So no, it's not something I invented. 

In the last page I provide once again how to solve Virt. In fact I say everytime reasons why Virt is garbage. 

On the other hand I never read a word on why it is good on people like you, heck did you even provide feedback at all? All I read everytime you post something is you licking ANets boots. 

And yes, everything works on pve, even a naked char with level one weapons. 

You can't judge a profession by what it does against a kittening npc especially taking into account the split damage. 

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35 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

The most common thing is people both here and reddit saying "I never liked mesmer but I like Virt", "I don't know how to play mesmer but Virt is straightforward" and kitten like that. So no, it's not something I invented. 

No, you have concluded everyone that likes Virt has no clue about Mesmer ... from some posts on the forums. That conclusion is DEFINITELY a creation of your making . You have no idea how statistically relevant those posts are to make that conclusion. I also love that you simply dismiss those people when you haven't even considered the design of Virtuoso is Anet's intended way to make Mesmer more attractive to the people that don't play it. 

35 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

You can't judge a profession by what it does against a kittening npc especially taking into account the split damage. 

Actually, you absolutely CAN do that, EVEN with the splits because despite your dismissive ideas, PVE performance matters and I'm willing to bet PVE performance matters to ALOT more people than PVP/WvW. I mean, it's not like PVE performance as the primary consideration of an espec would be new or exceptional, so that conclusion makes no sense to begin with. You simply have a strong bias to non-PVE content and will say anything to support your narrative. 

35 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

And yes, everything works on pve, even a naked char with level one weapons. 

Then the same is for PVP/WVW ... Obviously you are being ridiculous here. I get it, you already know Anet isn't going to deliver what you want, so you got nothing to lose with your dismissive approach, trashing on everything and contributing to the noise. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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4 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

it is simpler than mesmer yeah but staying as it is, it will be abandoned in a few weeks because if even mesmers mains can't do good with it, non mesmers will have it much harder.

im mainly talking about its likely PvE Mesmers that like the specc.. remember, ur Casual PvE Playerbase is now the games Largest audience..

SPVP is pretty low popularity.. rly high competitive PvE is also pretty low in popularity, Their Casual PvE Audience is realistically the core focus now. because this game wotn survive on us only, we're MASSIVELY outnumbered im afraid.. this specc was obviously designed as a "PvE DPS", u can see it in every part of its design.

Like they;ve said, they have no problem releasing a Specc that is good in Some content and bad in others.. virts exactly that. its a good PvE DPS. but its terrible in SPVP, Im not holding out on it being bad in PvP gonna encourage a rework in all honesty.

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7 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

Rant? What rant? I'm telling you why your crying is pointless and just annoying at this point, lol.

Feel free to go back to your reddit hugbox if you don't want to see anything but unearned praise. The people who actually play the game aren't happy about these elite specs.

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14 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

PvE Mesmer here, Virtuoso is kitten and I am not buying the expansion.

And I don't blame you as I said twice, virt was enough to make me change main. 

But that's kinda the target of the elites, elites add one new option, they effectively are made to create reasons for new players to start playing the proffessions and old to change mains. 

That's the only way the game can encourage you to recycle content, same as other games launching new classes/proffessions to get players to make a new character where they replay old content etc etc. 

All we can really hope is the 4th beta shows some serious changes based on feedback across the board, but tbh prior early showings of elites have always brought negative reactions.. 

The version of these speccs we saw are likely from months and months ago and were actually behind where the developers side versions were.

So it's not abnormal for them to be soo janky realistically. 

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2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

But that's kinda the target of the elites, elites add one new option, they effectively are made to create reasons for new players to start playing the proffessions and old to change mains. 

No it isn't.

2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

The version of these speccs we saw are likely from months and months ago and were actually behind where the developers side versions were.

What would be the point of the Beta then?

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3 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Feel free to go back to your reddit hugbox if you don't want to see anything but unearned praise. The people who actually play the game aren't happy about these elite specs.

You play the game? Crazy. The people who tried virt didn't though? Weird. Pretty sure you had to be logged in to do that. How are you playing the game and they aren't? The fans want to know.

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No-one is trying to argue that virt is a terrible concept or what the purpose of elite specs is, but what is the point in acting like virt is implemented as well as it could be. Just the fact they thematically tried to mash together 3 difference concept that could easily be their own specs shows they weren't really sure how to go about virtuoso and realistically beta is enough time to go over the numbers and some of the talents, not the entire spec. According to some statistics available online mesmer already is the 5th popular spec, in this case maybe its worth to go over for whom this spec really is for, since it looks that the class is already popular with casual audiences and somehow i doubt it will truly be easier than gs power mirage.

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6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, you have concluded everyone that likes Virt has no clue about Mesmer ... from some posts on the forums. That conclusion is DEFINITELY a creation of your making . You have no idea how statistically relevant those posts are to make that conclusion. I also love that you simply dismiss those people when you haven't even considered the design of Virtuoso is Anet's intended way to make Mesmer more attractive to the people that don't play it. 

Actually, you absolutely CAN do that, EVEN with the splits because despite your dismissive ideas, PVE performance matters and I'm willing to bet PVE performance matters to ALOT more people than PVP/WvW. I mean, it's not like PVE performance as the primary consideration of an espec would be new or exceptional, so that conclusion makes no sense to begin with. You simply have a strong bias to non-PVE content and will say anything to support your narrative. 

Then the same is for PVP/WVW ... Obviously you are being ridiculous here. I get it, you already know Anet isn't going to deliver what you want, so you got nothing to lose with your dismissive approach, trashing on everything and contributing to the noise. 

I said in the first page people that like virt are either clueless about mesmer, play only open world pve or are anti-mesmers trying to get it to stay the garbage it currently is. 

There are three alternatives not only people who don't play mesmer. 

Now, everyone that plays competitively knows Virt is absolute garbage and is dead on arrival. 

Virt has nothing attractive beyond the purple shining fx. Mechanicaly there is nothing there, heck, even lb rangers require more braincells. 

Gl with the naked char and level one weapon on wvw and naked and no amulet on pvp.  In PvE it works because AI sucks balls. 

I'm still awaiting for your feedback, till now its zero. 

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6 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

No it isn't.

What would be the point of the Beta then?

Uh.. Yes it is? It's to add completely different gameplay to attract other types of players to a class. It's like in WoW you can dislike 2 specs from the class, but the third can be your favorite in the entire game. Except with you and other people on this forum it's "I only tolerate ur trash for MY class so how DARE you not listen to me and do what I want this class to be devs"

 

The point of the beta was to give you a taste of what is to come as an apology for the fact that EoD was delayed like 3 months. It was a privilege. I honestly can't help but feel like the massive increase of endless incessant bitching from this hyper vocal minority of the player base  makes them regret putting out a public beta of the classes 4 months prior to release.

Edited by Hallow.7368
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4 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Gl with the naked char and level one weapon on wvw and naked and no amulet on pvp.  In PvE it works because AI sucks balls. 

I'm still awaiting for your feedback, till now its zero. 

Again, this statement makes no sense ... you are going to fail just as hard with 'naked' builds in PVE as you are in WVW and PVP. It's not even relevant to the discussion anyways because dismissing PVE performance as 'not important' because of your nonsensical ideas about playing it naked isn't going to be a compelling reason for ANYONE including Anet to listen to you about Virtuoso PVP/WVW performance. It's not a zero-sum game here, so crapping on PVE isn't a valid strategy to improve Virtuoso for PVP/WvW. Not sure what feedback you are looking for from me. I don't recall you asking me for anything ... but if you want to know ... every post here is feedback for you to improve your approach to give your own feedback. 

Bottomline is that it's not a problem if Virtuoso isn't the new awesome thing for PVP/WvW. Dismissing PVE as valid content for Virtuoso to be measured in isn't going to improve it for PVP/WvW either. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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56 minutes ago, Hallow.7368 said:

The point of the beta was to give you a taste of what is to come as an apology for the fact that EoD was delayed like 3 months. It was a privilege. I honestly can't help but feel like the massive increase from endless incessant bitching from this hyper vocal minority of the player base  makes them regret putting out a public beta of the classes 4 months prior to release.

As much as I like the sneak peak, it was inevitable it would draw the worst haters out from the their holes. The saving grace here is that it's very easy for Anet to ignore the sensational threads and posts they make. They serve themselves and the class they are passionate about very poorly with their narrowminded approach to how the game should cater to their own ideas. 

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20 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

As much as I like the sneak peak, it was inevitable it would draw the worst haters out from the their holes. The saving grace here is that it's very easy for Anet to ignore the sensational threads and posts they make. They serve themselves and the class they are passionate about very poorly with their narrowminded approach to how the game should cater to their own ideas. 

Yea I mean there are games where the devs literally DO ignore the player base, but this does not seem to be one of them. Are there bad things they do or change that maybe shouldn't of been done? Sure. But at the end of the day this company DOES appear to be actively trying to improve the game. The reasons these forums and probably most of the other forums feel like Anet doesn't listen to them is because for every player trying to give constructive criticism there are 30 people like Salt Mode who want them to rework the class in it's entirety because the elite skill has bugs in early beta tests. There's probably like 50 other people on here like the guys in this thread who only specifically do pvp and for whatever reason they feel like virt should be made for them and not the player base at large or what Anet's own vision for the espec is. Tuning could change, some traits could change or some skills could change, but even if they don't not every class needs to be god tier at all content. For instance I like ranger and druid, but I don't like soulbeast. Druid is not good in pvp or fractals, but if I want to PLAY druid in that content nothings stopping me. At worst I find a pve guild for fractals that doesn't care and for pvp I can just solo queue into stuff or just run around in WvW and have fun. These people are confusing something optimal with being it being useable. All specs in this game can do any content.

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1 hour ago, Hallow.7368 said:

Yea I mean there are games where the devs literally DO ignore the player base, but this does not seem to be one of them. Are there bad things they do or change that maybe shouldn't of been done? Sure. But at the end of the day this company DOES appear to be actively trying to improve the game. The reasons these forums and probably most of the other forums feel like Anet doesn't listen to them is because for every player trying to give constructive criticism there are 30 people like Salt Mode who want them to rework the class in it's entirety because the elite skill has bugs in early beta tests. There's probably like 50 other people on here like the guys in this thread who only specifically do pvp and for whatever reason they feel like virt should be made for them and not the player base at large or what Anet's own vision for the espec is. Tuning could change, some traits could change or some skills could change, but even if they don't not every class needs to be god tier at all content. For instance I like ranger and druid, but I don't like soulbeast. Druid is not good in pvp or fractals, but if I want to PLAY druid in that content nothings stopping me. At worst I find a pve guild for fractals that doesn't care and for pvp I can just solo queue into stuff or just run around in WvW and have fun. These people are confusing something optimal with being it being useable. All specs in this game can do any content.

 

Anerf has ignored wvw for most of it's nine years....

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12 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

 

Anerf has ignored wvw for most of it's nine years....

... and that should be a really strong hint as to why Virtuoso is designed the way it is.  I know people are loathe to admit it, but ... it's very likely the bread and butter of this game is funded on the presence of a strong PVE playerbase. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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58 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

... and that should be a really strong hint as to why Virtuoso is designed the way it is.  I know people are loathe to admit it, but ... it's very likely the bread and butter of this game is funded on the presence of a strong PVE playerbase. 

One of the reasons why I quit posting here is because the guys responding to me said to completely ignore PVE.  What point is there in talking to someone who just dismisses the majority of the playerbase?  "I'm right, if you ignore all the ways I'm wrong," has never been a productive discussion.

 

--------

 

To give perspective of somebody who doesn't main mesmer in any mode (though its my go-to for pug raids), the chronomancer and the mirage are brutal to play at competitive damage.  I spent upwards of 3 hours trying to get the chronoburst rotation right, only to never succeed at it.  Think about that for a moment: I would set up a golem with minimal health, try the initial chrono burst, read the first DPS log, then reset... over and over again every 2 minutes or so for 3 hours.  This was back when Continuum Split was used in the middle of casting Signet of the Ether, which was a far harder rotation than the ones we have now.  No matter how hard I tried, I was always 10k damage off for some reason.

The mirage was even worse.  The mirage did around 33k DPS on the golem, and the most I could pull was 22k.  Doesn't matter how many videos I watched, how many logs I read, or how many times I tried.  I put about 8 hours into getting the axe mirage right, but with so many hidden variables to keep track of it was impossible for me to get enough close.  My highest numbers came when I abandoned the meta strategy and just auto attacked with clones up, meaning that I spent an entire day making no progress whatsoever.  There was no way to get better, because I couldn't figure out what was going wrong.  These were the kinds of numbers where the commander of a raid would halt everything just to kick you.  I have tremors and bad pain in my hands, so my performance very much has a low peak that cannot be transcended.

This... is the steep learning curve that prospective mesmer players have to climb up for high end PVE.  Granted, it has been made easier over time to play this profession, but it still remains one of the more difficult ones to actually be good with.  DPS/STM Chrono still requires split second timing, and axe mirage is still resource-management hell.  That is why I say there is some wisdom in the Virtuoso's design.  By that I mean I'm glad I won't have to bloody my knuckles for hours on the training golem just to function at a basic level.  A simpler spec is good for newcomers, as is the ability to do damage at a good distance.  Virtuoso is far from perfect, and could use a lot of tweaks on its skills and traits, but I can't deny that Virtuoso is minimally competent.  

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6 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, this statement makes no sense ... you are going to fail just as hard with 'naked' builds in PVE as you are in WVW and PVP. It's not even relevant to the discussion anyways because dismissing PVE performance as 'not important' because of your nonsensical ideas about playing it naked isn't going to be a compelling reason for ANYONE including Anet to listen to you about Virtuoso PVP/WVW performance. It's not a zero-sum game here, so crapping on PVE isn't a valid strategy to improve Virtuoso for PVP/WvW. Not sure what feedback you are looking for from me. I don't recall you asking me for anything ... but if you want to know ... every post here is feedback for you to improve your approach to give your own feedback. 

Bottomline is that it's not a problem if Virtuoso isn't the new awesome thing for PVP/WvW. Dismissing PVE as valid content for Virtuoso to be measured in isn't going to improve it for PVP/WvW either. 

Again my feedback is good the way it is. 

I said Virt is garbage because x y z to fix it you should a b c.  Curiously the post was ignored by you, when you were the one who asked for it. 

Most simply say I like Virt, Virt is simple and simple is good. Is that even feedback? No. It is not, it doesn't contribute to make Virt better. 

Also I don't give a rats kitten if ANet reads or dismisses my posts or ideas, confounding suggestions stun just on f3 came from me and I don't go around saying it, everytime I mentioned it I say it came from the mesmer community.

So yeah I post giving my opinions on what I think is the best for mesmer players and not because I look for ANets praise. 

Do I think it would be better for the game if they read feedback from actual mesmer players such as Mort, Leonidrex, Curunen, Teison, Jazz, etc instead of people who are setting foot on the mesmer forums for the first time? Absolutely.

And once again I ask where the heck is your feedback regarding Virt? All I see is whiteknighting ANet, ideas - 0 Virt problems - 0 solutions - 0 

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On 11/8/2021 at 8:40 AM, Hallow.7368 said:

Rant? What rant? I'm telling you why your crying is pointless and just annoying at this point, lol.

 

And AGAIN it is a BETA. Why are you so butt hurt about bugs in a BETA? You understand what this term means, right? It means THEY ARE NOT READY. If they were they'd be live right now. Your "facts" are based on a week of testing 4-5 months before release when nothing has even been through QA. They gave everyone the privilege of having a glimpse at the upcoming especs

Objectively incorrect. They ran beta events before previous expansions too, so no, it is not because of the delay. And no, it is not "a privilege" for the player. A privilege for ArenaNet, yes, because they get people to playtest and report bugs for free.

Quote

and here you are moaning about bugs in a very very early beta build of the espec and claiming that this is grounds for reworking the skills and espec entirely.

Trash logic. It is exactly in early beta where you SHOULD rework skills/the whole thing entirely, if at all. Doing it later (which you are implying) would mean more work down the drain.

Quote

You either have no idea how development works and don't read anything anyone says unless it's someone else with your perspective or you're just flat out ignorant and the last thing you should be doing is calling what other people are telling you baseless, but you're right it is pointless because you refuse to view it any other way than "woe is me my class sucks and the devs don't listen to me."  

Zzz, boring drivel.

Edited by agrippastrilemma.8741
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18 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No, you have concluded everyone that likes Virt has no clue about Mesmer ... from some posts on the forums. That conclusion is DEFINITELY a creation of your making . You have no idea how statistically relevant those posts are to make that conclusion. I also love that you simply dismiss those people when you haven't even considered the design of Virtuoso is Anet's intended way to make Mesmer more attractive to the people that don't play it. 

Actually, you absolutely CAN do that, EVEN with the splits because despite your dismissive ideas, PVE performance matters and I'm willing to bet PVE performance matters to ALOT more people than PVP/WvW

Please refer to a peer-reviewed study to support this claim.

18 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I mean, it's not like PVE performance as the primary consideration of an espec would be new or exceptional, so that conclusion makes no sense to begin with. You simply have a strong bias to non-PVE content

No, it is incredibly, ridiculously easy to make something perform in PvP. You can literally just boost the numbers until people start playing it. That is why it is way, way smarter to design things for PvP/WvW and then change numbers to make it work in PvE.

18 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

and will say anything to support your narrative. 

Exactly what you do in every single post.

18 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Then the same is for PVP/WVW ... Obviously you are being ridiculous here.

No, in casual PvE (the game mode that has the most players) anything can be played just fine, you just need an attractive class fantasy. It's not like PvP, or raids, where people might buy an expansion just to get a competitive advantage. It's not the same.

18 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I get it, you already know Anet isn't going to deliver what you want,

And you don't even want anything, except to simp for ANet at all costs, and pay them like a good little paypig.

18 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

so you got nothing to lose with your dismissive approach, trashing on everything and contributing to the noise. 

"Dismissive approach" describes yourself to a T, "contributing to the noise" even more so. Stop projecting.

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8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

... and that should be a really strong hint as to why Virtuoso is designed the way it is.  I know people are loathe to admit it, but ... it's very likely the bread and butter of this game is funded on the presence of a strong PVE playerbase. 

Chronomancer has been meta and popular in PvE for years and years, while also being critically acclaimed by pretty much every PvP player, so this is a nonsensical and meaningless statement.

Edited by agrippastrilemma.8741
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