Did these people play the same spec as we did?

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

7 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

As much as I like the sneak peak, it was inevitable it would draw the worst haters out from the their holes. The saving grace here is that it's very easy for Anet to ignore the sensational threads and posts they make. They serve themselves and the class they are passionate about very poorly with their narrowminded approach to how the game should cater to their own ideas. 

I wrote a long and detailed feedback and bug list, you are free to respond to it if you want, but you won't because you don't have anything interesting to say, as it turns out.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

8 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Again, this statement makes no sense ... you are going to fail just as hard with 'naked' builds in PVE as you are in WVW and PVP.

No you are absolutely not, unless maybe if we are talking about raids/high-level PvE, but we obviously aren't because then the "more people care about PvE than PvP" line goes goes out the window.

Quote

Not sure what feedback you are looking for from me. I don't recall you asking me for anything ... but if you want to know ... every post here is feedback for you to improve your approach to give your own feedback.

Hahahaha, what a copout, can't provide anything of substance himself so all he can do is complain at how others do it.

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

And once again I ask where the heck is your feedback regarding Virt?

My feedback is that it's fine as it is. Anything that needs to be done is just some numbers adjustments as far as I'm concerned. Again, stop assuming everyone is on the hate train and is asking Anet to scrap their work. 

Bottomline here is that as you continue to trash the PVE performance of the spec and the appreciation of it by players you suspect know nothing, those things are actually relevant here. VERY relevant.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

13 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

 

The point of the beta was to give you a taste of what is to come as an apology for the fact that EoD was delayed like 3 months. It was a privilege. I honestly can't help but feel like the massive increase of endless incessant bitching from this hyper vocal minority of the player base  makes them regret putting out a public beta of the classes 4 months prior to release.

You are whats wrong with modern video games.

[Levetty.1279]

23 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

im mainly talking about its likely PvE Mesmers that like the specc.. remember, ur Casual PvE Playerbase is now the games Largest audience..

SPVP is pretty low popularity.. rly high competitive PvE is also pretty low in popularity, Their Casual PvE Audience is realistically the core focus now. because this game wotn survive on us only, we're MASSIVELY outnumbered im afraid.. this specc was obviously designed as a "PvE DPS", u can see it in every part of its design.

Like they;ve said, they have no problem releasing a Specc that is good in Some content and bad in others.. virts exactly that. its a good PvE DPS. but its terrible in SPVP, Im not holding out on it being bad in PvP gonna encourage a rework in all honesty.

Mirage and Chrono are much better in casual PvE then Virt. Virt is literally only good for high dps in ideal raid scenarios. 

[Obtena.7952]

54 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Mirage and Chrono are much better in casual PvE then Virt. Virt is literally only good for high dps in ideal raid scenarios. 

That depends on the player and how they want to play. How do you mean 'better'?  Because I can assure you from a complexity perspective, that's untrue and as a casual player, I can assure you that the complexity of playing a class is WAY more important consideration to them than the performance will ever be. 

Anet has given Mesmer player a way to not care about the mechanics to build up the resources needed to use the class mechanic in an reliable, consistent way. That's literally GOLD for a casual player. 

See, posts like yours are the problem because there is NO WAY you are going to be able to talk about what needs to be improved if you can't recognize what is good about the spec for who it's good for. Again, this dismissive approach is a dead end and the result is that your voice is lost in the noise, with all the other people that just think they have the answer when they don't know the question. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Hallow.7368]

33 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

You are whats wrong with modern video games.

What? Telling you that your kitten where you act entitled to dictating how the class gets developed is a fallacy? I mean it's not like I'm wrong you just refuse to view any other way than your own. Sorry bud.

[Certero.2594]

Since everyone seems to be focusing on PvE, I'd like to give my feedback as a player who mostly plays mesmer on PvE in open world and raids in comparison to other mesmer specs.

 

Chronomancer gives you some very nice things to play with, particularly with the chronophantasma trait, that has some very nice synergy with Persistence of Memory from Illusions.

Combined with firework/pack runes and Bountiful Blades trait allows you to reach 25 might and keep permanent quickness on yourself just by spamming phantasms. You can reach 25 might with GS4 alone. You can also go full glass and still manage to kill hard hitting mobs because the clones take the aggro off of you and it offers very nice damage + QoL with full Quickness+alacrity+25might uptime on yourself provided you got a decent amount concentration.

 

Double Staff Mirage has a bit less burst, but compensates with insane sustain. A celestial mirage is basically unkillable in Open World as long as you're not dozing off too much, great for soloing the hardest mobs in open world and even some meta bosses.

 

Virtuoso is more similar to chrono, but with some drawbacks:

• · No clones to take the aggro off of you
• · No nice synergy from chronophantasma
• · No easy to access alacrity on shatter
• · Projectiles

 

Virtuoso has a similar thing to chronophantasma with phantasmal blades trait, but without the cool trait interactions from chrono, quiet intensity will allow you to take less assassin and more marauder which will boost survivability, but there's nothing much to play with here. Aegis on dodge/block is nowhere near as good as clones take the aggro off of you.

Dagger is also not a good weapon, GS is more effective for damage and clone/blade generation, and sword offers movement on virtuoso, so I don't really see what can dagger bring in open world really. Except projectiles.

One of the things I like about mesmer is that you could fight chaks and jades and other mobs that have reflect on ranged without worry about killing yourself, unlike other builds I use like shortbow rev. Just careful with mobs focusing you and careful with reflects.

 

Despite all these drawbacks, the daggers on your head offer no passive whatsoever, they just sit on your head doing nothing. And nothing on your traits or mechanics interacts with how many you have on your head (except for 1 healing skill), which seems like a missed opportunity considering how many interactions holosmith had bundled with its heat mechanic. Except when you shatter, as far as the game is concerned, it matters not whether you have 0 or 5 blades on you, which classes with all the passives and benefits (and some drawbacks as well) clones have.

 

In regards to them dying in open world, mobs do reduced damage to clones even if they focus them, so they can pull the aggro for a solid 6-10 seconds before needing to be replaced, and you're likely going to end up replacing them before they die anyway just by pressing your skills.

 

And in comparison to mirage... the bloodsong line has nothing on mirage, who not only adds lots of condi damage with ambushes, but also adds sustain instead of taking it away, and it has 2 dodges.

 

Virtuoso utilities are also nothing significant. The rain of swords utilities are similar to chrono wells, but with the difference of the enemy not standing still hitting your clones to actually get hit by the full skill, the immobilize one is useless for open world where everything dies in less than 3 seconds.

 

And let me tell you, as someone who played DPS mesmer in raids for a long time, your amazing DPS benchmarks and your desirability in groups are just one balance patch away from oblivion.

 

You might see some resurgence in fractals, since mesmer has been almost completely kicked out of the meta there. But if the only endgame content I can see myself playing this thing is on low end fractals (as CMs still favor a condi setup) then that's really a disappointing outlook for the elite spec.

 

As far as I see it Virtuoso offers nothing really substantial to set it apart and gain its own place in PvE other than an alternative DH in some endgame content. I will still be recommending chrono to new players and then mirage if they want something stronger. As those are easier to play, offer more QoL and are better for solo play/offer something else than pure DPS in group content, whereas virtuoso while still good for solo play will struggle when the game starts to push back against them.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Certero.2594

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Mirage and Chrono are much better in casual PvE then Virt. Virt is literally only good for high dps in ideal raid scenarios. 

While I agree. I was talking about casual raiders / fractal players wanting a easier to play specc then chrono and mirage. 

Virt is easier to play so a far easier learning tool to use in casual groups. 

But yes this specc is rubbish for open world content as it's so squishy and loss of clones generally is a survivability loss. 

[Puck.3697]

15 hours ago, Hallow.7368 said:

Uh.. Yes it is? It's to add completely different gameplay to attract other types of players to a class. It's like in WoW you can dislike 2 specs from the class, but the third can be your favorite in the entire game. Except with you and other people on this forum it's "I only tolerate ur trash for MY class so how DARE you not listen to me and do what I want this class to be devs"

 

The point of the beta was to give you a taste of what is to come as an apology for the fact that EoD was delayed like 3 months. It was a privilege. I honestly can't help but feel like the massive increase of endless incessant bitching from this hyper vocal minority of the player base  makes them regret putting out a public beta of the classes 4 months prior to release.

Yeeaaaah. Because betas have always shown the gaming companies to listen to feedback and more. 

SL didn't come out as bad as it looked in beta. 

BFA didn't come out as bad as it looked. 

ESOs necromancer didn't get come out as weak as it aZ beta tested. 

New world didn't launch with the same bugs shown in beta testing. 

List goes on. 

When will people like you that in 9/10 times they fix nothing highlighted in the beta testing by players and generally go live almost the exact same as they were shown in "beta" 

Never beleive the "beta status" never ever listen to its "only beta" and never fall back on "relying" that the company will fix the problems data highlight. 

If you do this they will make 0 fixs why would they use money to fix problems your not complaining about, when they can simply not fix em and have a higher profit. 

Either screech or watch a company completely ignore you, it doesn't bother Anet if these speccs are balanced.. they only care you buy the expansion. 

I.e once launched they have no garunteed profit line from you. So make your demands before you pay for a expansion. 

Why would you not be vocal about a game you want to succeed. It's not called "making them regret" it's called having a investment and passion for a game you want to see improve. 

The beta isnt a apology. Anet have always done beta's they are normally closed. They stated they are trying to do things differently to see if this is more successful. 

Nothing to do with EoD delay lol

Edited November 9, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

My feedback is that it's fine as it is. Anything that needs to be done is just some numbers adjustments as far as I'm concerned. Again, stop assuming everyone is on the hate train and is asking Anet to scrap their work. 

Bottomline here is that as you continue to trash the PVE performance of the spec and the appreciation of it by players you suspect know nothing, those things are actually relevant here. VERY relevant.

That feedback of only numbers change is all I needed to know you don't have a clue regarding mesmers. 

 

[Levetty.1279]

1 hour ago, Hallow.7368 said:

What? Telling you that your kitten where you act entitled to dictating how the class gets developed is a fallacy? I mean it's not like I'm wrong you just refuse to view any other way than your own. Sorry bud.

Turning betas into demos.

Throwing a tantrum when people criticize a dev you like.

Saying people should blindly worship devs.

Saying that devs letting you play their game is a privilege. 

 

You are a hyper consumer who thinks the customers owe big businesses something for selling us a product.

[Obtena.7952]

15 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

That feedback of only numbers change is all I needed to know you don't have a clue regarding mesmers. 

 

That's ironic because based on your lack of understanding why this spec appeals to PVE players and your dismissal of the importance of the spec's PVE performance ... it would be very easy for someone to make the same claim about you. 

 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

5 minutes ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

That feedback of only numbers change is all I needed to know you don't have a clue regarding mesmers. 

 

I don't even know why you bother reading his posts. Though if you want a laugh dig up the thread on the ranger forums where in one thread he goes from 'Pets don't have pathing issues' to 'Untamed will fix pets pathing issues' to 'everybody except me is wrong because we have no idea if untamed will fix pathing issues'.

[Obtena.7952]

Nah ... we can stick to the topic here. What I said here is not changed: You can't ignore how the spec performs in PVE to justify the changes you want to it. If you do, you're just another noisemaker and your messaging will be confused. 

Virtuoso appeals to people and not just because they 'don't know' the class. There are valid reasons for this appeal and ignoring them will do nothing to aid your efforts to get changes. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Levetty.1279]

You did and you are right, it was nonsense.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That depends on the player and how they want to play. How do you mean 'better'?  Because I can assure you from a complexity perspective, that's untrue and as a casual player, I can assure you that the complexity of playing a class is WAY more important consideration to them than the performance will ever be. 

Anet has given Mesmer player a way to not care about the mechanics to build up the resources needed to use the class mechanic in an reliable, consistent way. That's literally GOLD for a casual player. 

See, posts like yours are the problem because there is NO WAY you are going to be able to talk about what needs to be improved if you can't recognize what is good about the spec for who it's good for. Again, this dismissive approach is a dead end and the result is that your voice is lost in the noise, with all the other people that just think they have the answer when they don't know the question. 

Staff Mirage is insanely easy in PvE. Also, keep in mind that virtuoso loses the aggro-taking that clones provide so in some ways Virtuoso is less easy in open-world. Virtuoso also has less sustain.

Edited November 9, 2021 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Obtena.7952]

2 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Mirage and Chrono are much better in casual PvE then Virt. Virt is literally only good for high dps in ideal raid scenarios. 

I'm still interested in what you mean by 'better' here if your intention isn't just to dismiss PVE performance. I mean, you accusing me of not contributing and giving feedback ... but then you throw a statement like THIS which is a great example of ENSURING certain people can't contribute to the thread and give feedback. Apparently, whatever the feedback is, it needs to be supporting your narrative on your terms. 

Edited November 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Tseison.4659]

So I'm not too sure what this thread is becoming at this point because it seems to be going absolutely no where and a lot of people are feeding into the obvious troll in here and causing it to further descend into nothing. 

November 30 will be here before we know it and I'm pretty sure they'll give us more info on not only the siege turtle but what changes they've made SO FAR on the elite specs come November 26.

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

a great example of ENSURING certain people can't contribute to the thread and give feedback. 

No it isn't. It doesn't do that. Stop lying.

[Entropo.1524]

bro i cant believe this is still going , i dont even know what are people arguying about , whether or not its okay to enjoy virtuoso ? 

 

[Senqu.8054]

lmao this dude is the personalization of the problem this game has since release. 

 

ESpecs should be designed around PvP and then make it work for PvE, not the other way around. Mechanical wise it doesn’t make any sense to design it for PvE and make it work for PvP but noo „lowest common denominator“ and stuff like that… what a joke!
 

My hairy kitten, I can’t believe I (we) have (had) to give up this game to such people. Unbelievable. After all this time and money. The goal was so clearly defined and designed to be pvp-oriented. How in the name of holy Lyssa, how could that go wrong? What happened between GS/staff power core mesmer and now?? THINK ABOUT IT GS/STAFF POWER MESMER 

 

P.S. I really try to be objective: The later errors are recognized and removed, the more expensive it is to eliminate these errors. Developing game content just to delete it later after hours and hours of balancing is like double and triple the work FOR NOTHING. So, i personally can’t imagine ANet puts that much resources into balancing after release. They don’t have the resources and experience as developers anymore. They came to the conclusion that they are not capable of fixing these errors later on and Virtuoso just shows that. And this mirrors in the reactions of long time customers whos only new game content is ESpecs, for some even only 1/9 of that. And these customers have been willed to pay up to 100 bucks just for that because it was everything they wanted. It’s indeed Art to lose a customer base like that.
 

P.P.S. ANet you are the most incompetent company I have ever met . God kitten! 
 

 

[agrippastrilemma.8741]

8 minutes ago, Senqu.8054 said:

lmao this dude is the personalization of the problem this game has since release. 

 

ESpecs should be designed around PvP and then make it work for PvE, not the other way around. Mechanical wise it doesn’t make any sense to design it for PvE and make it work for PvP but noo „lowest common denominator“ and stuff like that… what a joke!

Yup. It reduces work for the devs too, they have had to rebalance stuff like Scourge and Kalla renegade so many times because they are not healthy in a capture-point based mode. It is easier to buff a more PvP-centered spec like, say, Willbender, to be good in PvE, than to balance a PvE-oriented spec in WvW/PvP. Because in PvE, there are fewer elements to consider - you don't have to consider how it feels to play versus it (frustration and so on).

Quote

P.S. I really try to be objective: The later errors are recognized and removed, the more expensive it is to eliminate these errors. Developing game content just to delete it later after hours and hours of balancing is like double and triple the work FOR NOTHING. So, i personally can’t imagine ANet puts that much resources into balancing after release. They don’t have the resources and experience as developers anymore. They came to the conclusion that they are not capable of fixing these errors later on and Virtuoso just shows that. And this mirrors in the reactions of long time customers whos only new game content is ESpecs, for some even only 1/9 of that. And these customers have been willed to pay up to 100 bucks just for that because it was everything they wanted. It’s indeed Art to lose a customer base like that.

Exactly. this is why people who say things akin to "calm down it's just a beta and you are already complaining" are missing the point. It is exactly during a beta where things can change. Revenant got a weapon swap due to beta feedback.

Edited November 9, 2021 by agrippastrilemma.8741

[Levetty.1279]

 

2 hours ago, Certero.2594 said:

Since everyone seems to be focusing on PvE, I'd like to give my feedback as a player who mostly plays mesmer on PvE in open world and raids in comparison to other mesmer specs.

 

Chronomancer gives you some very nice things to play with, particularly with the chronophantasma trait, that has some very nice synergy with Persistence of Memory from Illusions.

Combined with firework/pack runes and Bountiful Blades trait allows you to reach 25 might and keep permanent quickness on yourself just by spamming phantasms. You can reach 25 might with GS4 alone. You can also go full glass and still manage to kill hard hitting mobs because the clones take the aggro off of you and it offers very nice damage + QoL with full Quickness+alacrity+25might uptime on yourself provided you got a decent amount concentration.

 

Double Staff Mirage has a bit less burst, but compensates with insane sustain. A celestial mirage is basically unkillable in Open World as long as you're not dozing off too much, great for soloing the hardest mobs in open world and even some meta bosses.

 

Virtuoso is more similar to chrono, but with some drawbacks:

• · No clones to take the aggro off of you
• · No nice synergy from chronophantasma
• · No easy to access alacrity on shatter
• · Projectiles

 

Virtuoso has a similar thing to chronophantasma with phantasmal blades trait, but without the cool trait interactions from chrono, quiet intensity will allow you to take less assassin and more marauder which will boost survivability, but there's nothing much to play with here. Aegis on dodge/block is nowhere near as good as clones take the aggro off of you.

Dagger is also not a good weapon, GS is more effective for damage and clone/blade generation, and sword offers movement on virtuoso, so I don't really see what can dagger bring in open world really. Except projectiles.

One of the things I like about mesmer is that you could fight chaks and jades and other mobs that have reflect on ranged without worry about killing yourself, unlike other builds I use like shortbow rev. Just careful with mobs focusing you and careful with reflects.

 

Despite all these drawbacks, the daggers on your head offer no passive whatsoever, they just sit on your head doing nothing. And nothing on your traits or mechanics interacts with how many you have on your head (except for 1 healing skill), which seems like a missed opportunity considering how many interactions holosmith had bundled with its heat mechanic. Except when you shatter, as far as the game is concerned, it matters not whether you have 0 or 5 blades on you, which classes with all the passives and benefits (and some drawbacks as well) clones have.

 

In regards to them dying in open world, mobs do reduced damage to clones even if they focus them, so they can pull the aggro for a solid 6-10 seconds before needing to be replaced, and you're likely going to end up replacing them before they die anyway just by pressing your skills.

 

And in comparison to mirage... the bloodsong line has nothing on mirage, who not only adds lots of condi damage with ambushes, but also adds sustain instead of taking it away, and it has 2 dodges.

 

Virtuoso utilities are also nothing significant. The rain of swords utilities are similar to chrono wells, but with the difference of the enemy not standing still hitting your clones to actually get hit by the full skill, the immobilize one is useless for open world where everything dies in less than 3 seconds.

 

And let me tell you, as someone who played DPS mesmer in raids for a long time, your amazing DPS benchmarks and your desirability in groups are just one balance patch away from oblivion.

 

You might see some resurgence in fractals, since mesmer has been almost completely kicked out of the meta there. But if the only endgame content I can see myself playing this thing is on low end fractals (as CMs still favor a condi setup) then that's really a disappointing outlook for the elite spec.

 

As far as I see it Virtuoso offers nothing really substantial to set it apart and gain its own place in PvE other than an alternative DH in some endgame content. I will still be recommending chrono to new players and then mirage if they want something stronger. As those are easier to play, offer more QoL and are better for solo play/offer something else than pure DPS in group content, whereas virtuoso while still good for solo play will struggle when the game starts to push back against them.

For non trolls who want to know why people are saying Chronomancer and Mirage are better then Virt in casual PvE, this is a very good post. It should probably even be put in the Virtuoso feedback thread (for whatever that is worth).

[Obtena.7952]

22 minutes ago, Levetty.1279 said:

 

For people who want to know why people are saying Chronomancer and Mirage are better then Virt in casual PvE, this is a very good post. It should probably even be put in the Virtuoso feedback thread (for whatever that is worth).

Again, that's better from a PERFORMANCE perspective. If you took some care to read my response to you when you FIRST made that comment ... 

From a COMPLEXITY perspective, it's untrue that Mirage and Chrono are better than Virtuoso. Also, as a casual player, I can assure you that the complexity of playing a class is WAY more important consideration to for casual player than the performance will ever be. 

Anet has given Mesmer player a way to not care about the mechanics to build up the resources needed to use the class mechanic in an reliable, consistent way. That's literally GOLD for a casual player. There ARE  VALID REASONS that Virtuoso appeals to people and dismissing those reasons with ideas like Mirage/Chrono are better are nonsense. Ironically, one could use the EXACT SAME Mirage/Chrono are better argument to completely dismiss the reasons you DON'T like Virtuoso for competitive modes ... so give a minute of thought to how disingenuous that response actually is. 

So again, stop ignoring what people are telling you that is relevant to the discussion if you are honestly interested in the overall performance of Virtuoso because the dismissive strategy simply is not going to work. You are NOT going to get improvements to Virtuoso in competitive modes with arguments like who cares about Virtuoso PVE performance because Mirage/Chrono are better for the scrubs that don't know anything. about the class.

Edited November 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952