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My take on what Bladesworn's Pistol is needed in order to make it function better


Lan Deathrider.5910

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@Cal Cohen.2358, @Raymond Lukes.6305, @Josh Davis.7865. I'm including you all in this discussion for completeness.

If you've read through all the feed back you'll see that there is a large amount of discontent in Dragon Trigger and OH Pistol. There has already been a lot of great feedback on Dragon Trigger on how to make it function better in competitive play, please listen and take action.

In regards to pistol, I'll quote Cal from the live stream, "Warrior off hand weapons is a crowded design space." So why add another OH weapon in the first place? I'm okay with not get dual pistols, but this thing should have been a main hand weapon.

 

I'm going to throw some suggestions at you. They are not heavy lifts, and they keep the design intent of the weapon intact while also make it vastly more functional. Each of the core Offhand weapons would function well with this weapon if it were a MH weapon, the same cannot be said for it as an OH weapon.

 

First, make it a mainhand weapon. Just move Gunstinger to slot 3 and Dragon's Roar to slot 2. This will also allow the combo between these two skills to flow better, 2-3-2 is more natural to execute than 5-4-5 along with slot 2 traditionally being a lower CD damage skill, which Dragon's Roar is. Pistol auto attacks are all the same generic animation, so there is no real changes there to make. No boons are needed, no condis of any sort are needed. Just let it do respectable damage, even in PvP/WvW. something like 1/4s cast with a 0.5 scaling in PvE, and 0.4 scaling in PvP/WvW. Again, no other purpose other than to apply sustain pressure from 900 range, no boons and no condis.

Second, You'll have to increase the ranges on Gunstinger and Dragon's Roar to 600-900 range. They will still function best in melee, but this allows the weapon to function at range.

Third, since you've introduce a Shadowstep into the spec with Flickerstep, change the leap on Gunstinger to a shadowstep.

What this does, is it gives Bladesworn a fast means of getting to an enemy, to either support an ally, harry a foe,  or quickly assist in taking down a target. You can use Gunstinger along with Tremor/shield bash to stop a stomp and follow up with Dragon's Roar, you can use Impale -> GunStinger -> Rip for an easy combo, you can use Gunstinger -> Dual Strike/Whirling Axe to pressure an enemy/spike them. You can even use Gunstinger to get to an ally in combat more quickly to use any of the warhorn skills or traited Shouts to support them.

Reworking Pistol into a MH weapon in this way would make it into a switch hitting weapon that complements all of the OH weapons we can use. 

 

Naturally this is all my opinion, and both you and others are free to disagree. Regardless I felt you guys should hear this idea, and felt that it was worthy of it's own thread for people to discuss it without adding to an already long feedback thread.

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34 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

First, make it a mainhand weapon. Just move Gunstinger to slot 3 and Dragon's Roar to slot 2. This will also allow the combo between these two skills to flow better, 2-3-2 is more natural to execute than 5-4-5 along with slot 2 traditionally being a lower CD damage skill, which Dragon's Roar is.

Wholeheartedly agree. Mainhand pistol would allow a lot more play with the various offhand weapons simply because we have more offhands. Additionally, as the Bladesworn traits currently stand, Axe is the only mainhand weapon that synergizes with any aspect of the Elite Spec.

  • Axe 1: Power damage. (Mace too slow, sword hamstrung by its hybrid design)
  • Axe 2: Ammo, synergizes with traits
  • Axe 3: Fury generation to promote Dragon Trigger Crits

I feel Pistol 1 could have the 900 range, but keep Dragon's Roar as is. Ultimately this is a melee focused spec and I can see keeping the Dragon's Roar as melee range. That said, Gunstinger should be 2 Ammo to allow you to use it as an engager & reloader.

Unfortunately, due to the trailer itself saying "offhand pistols to maintain their flow" it's highly HIGHLY unlikely they'll swap it to Mainhand. It's possible they're add Mainhand pistol in addition to offhand, but since their promotional material is already posted stating offhand it's unlikely they'll change it.

But I'm with you, really want this change.

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10 minutes ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

Wholeheartedly agree. Mainhand pistol would allow a lot more play with the various offhand weapons simply because we have more offhands. Additionally, as the Bladesworn traits currently stand, Axe is the only mainhand weapon that synergizes with any aspect of the Elite Spec.

  • Axe 1: Power damage. (Mace too slow, sword hamstrung by its hybrid design)
  • Axe 2: Ammo, synergizes with traits
  • Axe 3: Fury generation to promote Dragon Trigger Crits

I feel Pistol 1 could have the 900 range, but keep Dragon's Roar as is. Ultimately this is a melee focused spec and I can see keeping the Dragon's Roar as melee range. That said, Gunstinger should be 2 Ammo to allow you to use it as an engager & reloader.

Unfortunately, due to the trailer itself saying "offhand pistols to maintain their flow" it's highly HIGHLY unlikely they'll swap it to Mainhand. It's possible they're add Mainhand pistol in addition to offhand, but since their promotional material is already posted stating offhand it's unlikely they'll change it.

But I'm with you, really want this change.

Design can change based on feedback. See Scrapper and Gyros. One of the consistent feedbacks in the main feedback thread was that OH pistol is bad. It is bad because it is OH and is not constructed to function well with all of the MH weapons, and it is bad because despite being a ranged weapon only functions in melee range.

Edited by Lan Deathrider.5910
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It could even work as off hand as a pseudo Mainhand weapon if it had more range on the skills , 600 900 is fine, more damage in melee range revers ranger longbow basically, you take the trait that reduces the CDs with some cd  adjustments on dragon roar(just a little bit to not be clunky) and you get the 5 skill working as a basic attack and a hard hitting skill on full charge at the same time, the push back need some work and the gap closer should probably get a dodge, since the main hands do not have good defense options to support it, or even work in pair with it at all. It seems to be dead on arrival for PVP since shield is just simple and good and Bladesworn has one weapon set to chose from, so you will always pick the safest option, it is pigeon hold here,  for PVE you will pick axe it is again simple and good and it brings what you need for power damage. Also if I see some dumb kitten nerfs on something that works just to make way for the new spec like the whole shitshow with Spellbreaker I will be pissed.        

Edited by Vancho.8750
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13 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

It could even work as off hand as a pseudo Mainhand weapon if it had more range on the skills , 600 900 is fine, more damage in melee range revers ranger longbow basically, you take the trait that reduces the CDs with some cd  adjustments on dragon roar(just a little bit to not be clunky) and you get the 5 skill working as a basic attack and a hard hitting skill on full charge at the same time, the push back need some work and the gap closer should probably get a dodge, since the main hands do not have good defense options to support it, or even work in pair with it at all. It seems to be dead on arrival for PVP since shield is just simple and good and Bladesworn has one weapon set to chose from, so you will always pick the safest option, it is pigeon hold here,  for PVE you will pick axe it is again simple and good and it brings what you need for power damage. Also if I see some dumb kitten nerfs on something that works just to make way for the new spec like the whole shitshow with Spellbreaker I will be pissed.        

Preach. Want to keep it an Off-hand? Want to make it unique? Give it the one thing only pistol can do as an OH. Range. No role clashing with any other OH there. But I suppose asking for non-melee pistol is too much. Sorry I must control myself more.

Edited by Grand Marshal.4098
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3 minutes ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Preach. Want to keep it an Off-hand? Want to make it unique? Give it the one thing only pistol can do as an OH. Range. No role clashing with any other OH there. But I suppose asking for non-melee pistol is too much. Sorry I must control myself more.

Arenanet making crappy stuff just so they are unique just remind me of this meme.

https://imgur.com/gallery/pSpbBXG

I still do not get how they manage to make a weapon that makes no one happy, it has to be on purpose.

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4 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

Arenanet making crappy stuff just so they are unique just remind me of this meme.

https://imgur.com/gallery/pSpbBXG

I still do not get how they manage to make a weapon that makes no one happy, it has to be on purpose.

I remember when we knew we were getting pistol but before bladesworn had come out, and someone had said "just watch it will be a melee pistol." And I thought, "Lol that's ridiculous. There's no way ANet would troll us like that."

 

And then it happened.

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4 minutes ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I remember when we knew we were getting pistol but before bladesworn had come out, and someone had said "just watch it will be a melee pistol." And I thought, "Lol that's ridiculous. There's no way ANet would troll us like that."

 

And then it happened.

yep , I remenber being happy before the trailer.
Like"Oh boy war is gonna have a new distance option" then we saw.

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14 minutes ago, DemonCrypto.6792 said:

this is beyond tha ask of this discussions

But i really wanted a burst skill with pistol.
Having a warrior hip shooting, fanning the hammer of a gun would be so cool to see.

What did you say heretic? 👹 You want bursts?! New/old weapon bursts and unique ways of managing adrenaline outside a stupid kit? 🙊

TO THE GUILLOTINE! ☠️

(jk)

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57 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Design can change based on feedback.

We've never seen a weapon change to the extent of going from offhand-to-mainhand in the lifecycle of GW2. They've revamped utilities (Gyro, Banners, Conjure Weapons, Shouts, Spirits) or altered/removed them wholesale (Guardian Elite Tomes, Thief Traps, Ranger Spirits), and even revamped existing weapons (Ranger Sword, Engineer Rifle).

It's possible they'll try to revamp it before Beta 4/release but excruciatingly unlikely. Once ANet decides on a weapon I've never seen them change it after the announcement. That includes adding a main/offhand version of it (see suggestions of Weaver Offhand Sword, Mirage Offhand Axe, Revenant Offhand Mace/Mainhand Axe, Firebrand Offhand Axe, etc prior to release).

This part is completely meant as a (painful) joke: "design based on feedback" hasn't gone so well with the Warrior omnibus, haha

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9 minutes ago, Geoff Fey.1035 said:

 

This part is completely meant as a (painful) joke: "design based on feedback" hasn't gone so well with the Warrior omnibus, haha

It's just so tragic because ANet really seems to be out of touch with their game in terms of balance as well as what individual professions need to be successful and what a new especs should being to the table.  They also seem to have an unfortunate "if we didn't think of it, we're not interested" attitude when it comes to feedback. Sure, they'll make changes if enough people complain, but the changes they make seem to be alternatives to what people were asking for (e.g., "minion mancer is OP; need to nerf the condi transfer"; ANet nerfs Minion HP. Or " warrior sword and mace need reworks"; ANet reworks rifle in the clumsiest way possible.). In my experience, this sort of approach to feedback is always toxic and does not lead to long term success.

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Spellbreaker gained 2 daggers. No reason the profession with mastery of weapons can't gain 2 pistols , instead of doing some jank of reworking an offhand pistol into mainhand. If it's given range it can use the harbinger and virtuoso balancing mechanism of fanning out (i.e. melee range is max damage).

Currently if you use offhand pistol you have sword/axe/mace mainhands...

Most builds I've seen on Bladesword are using offhand warhorn for burst damage if they are not using greatsword for mobility (sword+shield or similar would function in this fashion to an extent as well) or rifle for range pressure.

That's all I have to say.

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8 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Spellbreaker gained 2 daggers. No reason the profession with mastery of weapons can't gain 2 pistols , instead of doing some jank of reworking an offhand pistol into mainhand. If it's given range it can use the harbinger and virtuoso balancing mechanism of fanning out (i.e. melee range is max damage).

Currently if you use offhand pistol you have sword/axe/mace mainhands...

Most builds I've seen on Bladesword are using offhand warhorn for burst damage if they are not using greatsword for mobility (sword+shield or similar would function in this fashion to an extent as well) or rifle for range pressure.

That's all I have to say.

It was more of what would be the least amount of effort for them to create a MH pistol with what is currently there.

 

I certainly would not say now to dual wielding pistols with the current OH as it is and a proper ranged MH Pistol with some utility on Pistol 2 and Pistol 3, like an enhanced Flickerstep.

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I already said on the feedback thread that Pistol needs to be MH just because Warrior in general has some seriously good OH weapons. Honestly, Gunstinger > Whirling Axe alone justifies how good MH Pistol would have been, and that's only covering one OH for Warrior. 

Feels like they just whacked on OH or Two Handed weapons for most E-Specs just because they didn't feel like trying with the weapons provided for the upcoming E-Specs

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34 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Spellbreaker gained 2 daggers

Yes, but Spellbreaker was announced/designed with 2 daggers in mind.

I agree, they should have 2 pistols, but that apparently was not in the baseline design which is the main problem. When ANet doesn't have something in the design then it almost never gets changed/added.

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Any functionality change to more range is not happening, since imo the spec is 90% designed around melee combat. The gimmick charge or projectile which you can jump over or sidestep point blank are hardly worth noting (the bright effect before the attack starts is way too obvious).

I envy your effort to try to open their eyes to this "failure" though. I gave up on it. Its more likely that vindicator (a slightly bigger failure) will end up good on release while bladesworn will remain clunky. The dragon trigger is not gw2 design. No amount of damage will change this.

Edited by anbujackson.9564
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1 hour ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Any functionality change to more range is not happening, since imo the spec is 90% designed around melee combat.

90% designed to melee. No, a blasworn need to go melee ok.
But flow generation is started when you enter combat.
closing the gap is more time comsumming compared to starting the combat at distance with a distance weapon and building up flow at the same time then closing the gap, and entering melee range with a good flow already. Or not closing the gap pressuring the adversery to close it and welcomming him with a good charge dragon trigger.

gun is good for Bladesworn, it almost fit perfectly with the gameplay(i'm not saying that the gameplay isn't broken as well) but it open more tactic to build up flow. this is why main hand pistol would have been the best for this spec

 

Edited by DemonCrypto.6792
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I very much have a less-fire view of the gun saber and dragon trigger kit. While I view it as only needing tweaks to be a strong set in competitive modes that let’s warrior play very differently than it currently does, I have not commented much on pistol. This is in part because I don’t know what to say about it.

I think what you outlined is exactly correct; no main hand weapons work with it properly. However, I can definitely see the off hand weapons working well with it. 
As far as the changes suggested, I think increasing to the 450-600 range is sufficient. 900 is unnecessary. As for a port, I’m not personally a fan. It would limit the mobility provided by the kit to requiring a target, and reduce its ability to separate and kite. However, this is personal preference, since a port does have its place and there are benefits to it. 
 

5 hours ago, anbujackson.9564 said:

Any functionality change to more range is not happening, since imo the spec is 90% designed around melee combat.

That’s funny because the beta version operated best as a mid range spec.
On a more serious note; half the damaging skills on the gun saber are ranged, and it’s melee pressure is abysmal. Dragon Trigger is min 300 range, which is technically beyond melee. I would argue that it’s not designed around 90% melee, but an even split between melee and mid range. In that case, making pistol MH and adding a 900 range auto would better balance the spec around the “high flexibility” idea that CMC directly stated in the stream. Just my thoughts though, you are free to disagree 🙂 

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5 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

900 range on the CDs may or may not be too much, but an AA would need to be 900 and I did not want it to end up like engineer rifle with mix matched ranges.

I guess we have different views. I think the focus they have for the spec is to give it healthy flexibility since you are locked into gun saber. Having a variety of ranges on the pistol would help it blend better with this philosophy and blend better with some of the off hand weapons. Just my take though.

But yea, a 900 range is pretty much necessary. You’re thoughts have really cemented the conclusion in my mind that main hand pistol is really the only way to “fix” pistol (because the version used in beta felt like a handicap compared to shield or axe).

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