Should Alacrity and Quickness be Nerfed?

[Downstate.4697]

Don't they have too much of an impact in pve? If the viability of a support is based on whether or not they provide these boons isn't the solution to nerf them instead of adding them to new specializations? Seems like it is doing the opposite of "play how you want".

[mythical.6315]

13 minutes ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Don't they have too much of an impact in pve? If the viability of a support is based on whether or not they provide these boons isn't the solution to nerf them instead of adding them to new specializations? Seems like it is doing the opposite of "play how you want".

Wouldn't the viability of a support then just shift to other boons?

[Xanadrine.4352]

The whole must have x class kinda sucks if you are not x class. I get why they do it, because min/max will always exist no matter the game. Seems like the only way to avoid it is to give everything to everyone thereby negating the whole, must be x class. Difference is great until you dont have that different thing that people want, and you sit out.

[Linken.6345]

6 minutes ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

The whole must have x class kinda sucks if you are not x class. I get why they do it, because min/max will always exist no matter the game. Seems like the only way to avoid it is to give everything to everyone thereby negating the whole, must be x class. Difference is great until you dont have that different thing that people want, and you sit out.

Or you learn the new class.

[Xanadrine.4352]

1 minute ago, Linken.6345 said:

Or you learn the new class.

Well like I said thats part of the min max subgroup of players. For regular players that like the class they play and dont want to level a new class that dont work. I mean the majority of people that play just...play. They dont care about min/max, dps , boons , cc. They just want to run around the world exploring and killing things and getting rewards. 

[Infusion.7149]

Alacrity was already nerfed twice while quickness was only hit once in effectiveness. Given alacrity and the alacrity sources in this game are more or less non-existent in WVW/PVP for the most part I would say maybe quickness needs looking at. The issue with quickness being nerfed is every PVE encounter balanced around quickness will need to be reduced in that proportion of health. Quickness is a stronger boon because you can get more skills used in a certain time frame and thieves in particular are not as benefited by alacrity. That's why you see people ask for quickness before they ask for alacrity.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Alacrity

January 26, 2016 The effects of this buff have been reduced from 66% recharge reduction to 33% recharge reduction.

February 06, 2018 Alacrity is now a boon. The recharge-speed bonus has been reduced from 33% to 25%.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quickness

March 26, 2013   Reduced quickness from 100% attack speed to 50%.
January 26, 2016 Quickness and slow will no longer affect most defensive abilities.
April 19, 2016     Casting a skill with quickness and slow will now result in a 1.166x longer activation time, increased from 1.0x.

[Vidit.7108]

If you are saying they should be nerfed so much that people won't want them or need them, you're basically asking to have them removed from the game. As long as it increases dps people will want it, they also want full fury uptime and 25 stacks of might and not a bit less. 

Quickness and Alac were maybe not good ideas to put in the game to begin with but here we are. Anet seems to only be adding more sources of quickness with new specs so that's not the world we live in.

[Firebeard.1746]

@OP I agree with you: there's too much power gated behind simply stacking boons and class buffs. instead of nerfing, what I would personally do is restrict the number of offensive/defensive boons people can stack at once and have the devs make it so different types of builds scale better off of different types of boons. Maybe 1-2 offensive boons + 1 class shared offensive boon, tops. However, i don't see the devs doing this as it would require rebalancing all the encounters they've made that are over the top hard based on people stacking all this crap. It's a lot of work, but it would be healthy for the game IMO and open up new build and comp possibilities. You can have comps that focus on high damage CDs stacking alac, proccing effects of some sort off of quick, etc. It would also require redesigning almost everything XD, including traits weapons, etc, but I think it would have been WAY better. Sometimes the difference between a "skilled" group and a non-skilled one isn't even mechanic reaction times, etc. It's literally just boon stacking. 

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

No, the solution is to make all boons stack in intensity instead of duration. Alacrity, Quickness and other boons like Protection wouldn't be as overpowered if you needed multiple players to always keep them maxed, but currently just one player of a sufficient class can cover the entire group (some even in 10man).

 

It would also help boons like Regeneration be stronger and have more viability in group content.

 

This applies to few conditions as well, for example the healing malus on Agony and Poison should start out at a lower value and then stack to higher intensities, this way you don't have your healing completely ruined by just having a single, easy to deliver and maintain stack of one condition on you.

 

Flat rate boons and conditions aren't balanced for group content, and never will be.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Gorani.7205]

2 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Don't they have too much of an impact in pve? If the viability of a support is based on whether or not they provide these boons isn't the solution to nerf them instead of adding them to new specializations? Seems like it is doing the opposite of "play how you want".

Well, Alacrity & Quickness is what is asked most when you try to join a PUG for daily strikes and it happened regularly that e.g. my Tempest was kicked off groups, because I can't bring them (doesn't matter what I can bring to the table, as long it is not Alacrity).

Worth nerfing to make people not fixate on them? perhaps...

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Don't they have too much of an impact in pve? If the viability of a support is based on whether or not they provide these boons isn't the solution to nerf them instead of adding them to new specializations? Seems like it is doing the opposite of "play how you want".

I like the faster feel of quickness and alacrity, but either they need to spread the love around or otherwise address how important these boons are.  Another issue is aegis and stability.  For some strange reason the same classes that provide alacrity and quickness also provide stability and aegis!  Altogether these boons trivialize content and they're concentrated on just a few chosen classes.

Do I need to break out the dictionary definition of "Balance" here?  Cmon, ANet.  Do something about this already!

[Moradorin.6217]

1 hour ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

The whole must have x class kinda sucks if you are not x class. I get why they do it, because min/max will always exist no matter the game. Seems like the only way to avoid it is to give everything to everyone thereby negating the whole, must be x class. Difference is great until you dont have that different thing that people want, and you sit out.

This point of view kinda overlooks the people who buy extra character slots and take the time to develop one of each class or at least most of them and enough to fill any of the main support or dps roles, etc.

 

I think its arguably a way to reward people who spend the extra time and gold/gems to have the toons and gear to fill a bunch of roles. If the playing field was made flat no one would need more than one toon to cover all content and roles which sounds boring and also less profitable for Anet, which sounds like a lose lose situation.

 

I think it would be better to have things like they are now but maybe with a few classes getting tweaks that allow them to more compedatively fill said roles when compared to the other classes otherwise used in that role. Like ele I guess could use some work to perform better on small hitbox(? I dont rly play ele) - like what ever little things bring them enough into balance that more can fill general dps roles or more equally fill the support role the meta option has but without flattening everything to the point that we have no reason to make more than one or two toons to fill all roles cause that sounds boring af.

[Downstate.4697]

Great inputs from everyone and I can see how the problem is not as simple as the boons being too valuable. I think that overall, boons as a dps increase may be too valuable. My overall premise for this post is how can we move away from being enslaved to benchmarks and boon checks. Maybe the solution really is to give it to especs.

[Xanadrine.4352]

1 hour ago, Moradorin.6217 said:

This point of view kinda overlooks the people who buy extra character slots and take the time to develop one of each class or at least most of them and enough to fill any of the main support or dps roles, etc.

Well tbf im talking about raiders pvp fractals thats where you will see the bring x class or go home issue. And yes people who do that on a regular basis most likely dont have a static class they play. personally metas are not my thing I want to play what I love to play. I think the op's point was metas and must haves are anthesis to play how you want. I personally would love to see more variety in comps that are all viable.  

Edited October 19, 2021 by Zuldari.3940

[Omega.6801]

4 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Don't they have too much of an impact in pve? If the viability of a support is based on whether or not they provide these boons isn't the solution to nerf them instead of adding them to new specializations? Seems like it is doing the opposite of "play how you want".

Viability, or even necessity of support is only a thing in raids, high level fraks and maybe strikes. Everywhere else you're free to "play how you want".

[Downstate.4697]

Except that the high end pve meta dictates the rest of the games balance. Number tweaks are fine in pvp and wvw but they can only change how traits and utilities work if its vetted by the design team.  Benchmarks gate professions from getting any meaningful changes cuz anet is too scared to change it.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

4 hours ago, lokh.2695 said:

Viability, or even necessity of support is only a thing in raids, high level fraks and maybe strikes. Everywhere else you're free to "play how you want".

While this is sometimes true, alot of content like DRMs and world bosses such as Drakkar are far less efficient without meta classes and builds and can even fail despite all the powercreep.

 

If you're talking about generic open-world events, sure. But there's plenty of content outside of Fractals , raids and Strike Missions which greatly benefits from not only having a support but by having meta builds in general, and I'd even go so far as to say if players didn't bring meta to many encounters they'd likely fail alot more than you see happening.

 

The players who do follow meta give the illusion of content being easy and trivial, when in reality we used to all struggle with it before all the most efficient ways of tackling the content were discovered.

 

I even remember meta being very important in the far past, e.g the Battle for Lion's Arch in LWS1.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Svarty.8019]

9 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Don't they have too much of an impact in pve? If the viability of a support is based on whether or not they provide these boons isn't the solution to nerf them instead of adding them to new specializations? Seems like it is doing the opposite of "play how you want".

It's a combination of power creep and people simply having geared up alts to provide the boons that the content needs. The "efficient"/elitist PvE mentality comes from raiding.

[Linken.6345]

3 minutes ago, Svarty.8019 said:

It's a combination of power creep and people simply having geared up alts to provide the boons that the content needs. The "efficient"/elitist PvE mentality comes from raiding.

It do not come from raids, it was there at the release with speedrunning dungeons and even later in early days of fractals ( when you had to do 3+ a boss) if you wanted to go high level in them.

Just happened to be that the content was easy enough that everyone could do it just took way longer.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

Why care about what effect boons have on PvE?  There will always be selection criteria for groups doing harder PvE content.  Nerfing those two boons will just shift the criteria to something else.

 

As to the thought about making every profession have everything.  That would be boring.  Oh, by the way, at that point there would still be selection criteria for harder PvE content.  Absent differences between professions, the criteria would be based more on execution.

 

Truth be told, what the game needs is greater opportunity costs.  It's way too possible to put together builds that have sustain, high damage, high mobility and CC.  Greater opportunity costs would force players to choose which one(s) to give up to have the other(s).

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

1 hour ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

Why care about what effect boons have on PvE?  There will always be selection criteria for groups doing harder PvE content.  Nerfing those two boons will just shift the criteria to something else.

This is a very common misconception.  The reason why it is that group quickness/alacrity get preferential treatment is because their presence increases total group DPS more than a pure DPS or other group boons would.  If Quickness and Alacrity were removed, there isn't some other just-as-crucial role that will supplant them.  Instead, the requirements would shift to including more generic DPS players.  

[Svarty.8019]

7 hours ago, Linken.6345 said:

It do not come from raids, it was there at the release with speedrunning dungeons and even later in early days of fractals ( when you had to do 3+ a boss) if you wanted to go high level in them.

Just happened to be that the content was easy enough that everyone could do it just took way longer.

 Sorry, I wasn't clear - I mean raids as in a game-mode that exists in the MMO genre, not specifically raids in Guild Wars2. A lot of newer GW2 players have come from WoW and since then I've noticed a marked improvement in the way PvE content is completed.

 

5 hours ago, IndigoSundown.5419 said:

Why care about what effect boons have on PvE?  

Sure, I get it, but once all the game's PvE content is "on farm", people get fed up and quit.

 

Through player optimisation, a side-effect of raiding as mentioned above, a lot of formerly difficult content is now trivial. It's in the dev's interest to nerf abilities until content is difficult again. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Svarty.8019

[Jin.8501]

Nerfed? Nope. 

Removed from the game? Yes! 

[Astralporing.1957]

23 hours ago, FrownyClown.8402 said:

Don't they have too much of an impact in pve? If the viability of a support is based on whether or not they provide these boons isn't the solution to nerf them instead of adding them to new specializations? Seems like it is doing the opposite of "play how you want".

Well, you're right and wrong at the same time.

Sure, Alacrity and Quickness (and maybe Might) may indeed be a bit too strong and in need of further "downsizing" (or perhaps even more than downsizing, in case of the first two - see my comments on it further down), but that's nto a solution to a problem you raise, and never will be. Why? Because some people do like to play support.

And here's the kicker - it's probably next to impossible to balance a boon around the level where taking support class giving it or slotting pure dps in this place will be about equally beneficial. It will practically always be a situation where either the boon is worth taking over a pure dps slot (in which case it must be taken), or is not worth sacrificing a dps slot for it, in which case any support based around that boon is suddenly out of commision.

Preferably, you'd want a situation where boons offer an advantage, but that advantage is not too big. Having a boon should help you, but not having it should not significantly change the way you play.

Which brings us back to Alacrity and Quickness and the real issue behind them. It's not about how much dps increase they offer - it's about quite binary impact they cause on other stuff. In short, your dps rotation (well, non-dps ones as well) is based around cooldowns and skill activation times. As such, it is quite binary about those boons - the rotations people create assume certain specific upkeep of quickness and alacrity (generally - 100%), and if that assumptions are not met, the whole rotation changes because skill cooldowns no longer line up as well as they originally did. In some cases it might cause only a minor impact, but in others it has been known to be a huge issue.

As such, those two boons will always be either wanted for 100% upkeep, or (if we nerf them enough) not wanted at all (because even an incidental boon generation might cause issues then). Basically, as those boons work now, if we ever nerf them to the level where they become optional, it would probably be better to flat out remove them from the game.

[Jski.6180]

Well you cant blast for alacrity and quickness like you can blast for might so these boons are on an different level of limitation of use but the classes who can use them get nearly perms effect of them both support and self.

My suggestion would be to at the very least make them wepon skill use only they should not effect utility or class skills. At least then you get away from most of the looping effects of the boon them self effecting the means of generating the boon.

I for one do not like how the game both pve and pvp have shifted into all boons must be pema its bad balancing for the game and makes the gw2 game into something that was not made for benchmark build and classes for content. IF the game wants to move in this way going forward they need to let every Hero become any class (more of an ff14 class system where you level up different classes on the same hero to let you swap between these classes to fill different rolls as needed.) This game has a lot going agned the ideal of needing an alt hero and its a bit late in the game of balancing for anet to require this for content.