Dragonhunter needs buffs - Arken's PoV

[Arken.3725]

AFTER the removal of Trapper Runes.

 

As many of you know me, I'm very reasonable on what I think makes Guardian strong/weak and in my humble opinion, DH is only strong due to Trapper runes.  If these were to be removed, DH wouldn't see the light of day as a viable specialization and many of you know this is true.  There's a reason I pretty much never play dh due to its toxic viability.

 

Let's have a reasonable discussion about this with an objective attitude.  

[Swagg.9236]

"GW2 'Trap' Utility Skills" are among the worst design paradigm for a cycle of abilities within video games.  The worst part about Guardian's overall state as a class, however, is the fact that Trap DH is really just the logical conclusion of the way (offensive/damage) Guardian has always played:  teleport at a guy and blast damage as fast as possible while relying on passive/instant blinds and blocks to sustain yourself before this sudden and twitchy trade of blows eventually swings in the opponent's favor.  Damage Guardian has always been "blue thief."  If you want an interesting, engaging or role-fulfilling Guardian build, you'll really have to rethink what sort of support that the class could potentially bring to the battlefield because, as it stands, Guardian is just one of many copies of the same class/playstyle; and the only reason is ever makes an appearance from time to time is because it has instant/passive access to perfect invisibility.

In summary, don't think about "buffing" anything.  Number adjustments will only continue what stealth trapper spawned.  You need to entirely re-make that shallow, boring class.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Swagg.9236

[Arken.3725]

The idea of it being rebuilt is never going to happen so that argument will never be had.  Guardian has NEVER been considered the "blue thief," it doesn't have NEARLY the mobility of thief nor the disengage potential(unless we're talking trapper runes).  

 

There's a reason that outside of support core, no other build is even considered in the MOTA, even Trapper DH.  It's a pub stomper, that's all.  It's a joke build vs other roamers.  I know that it's not viable at the absolute top-tier and I'm still calling for trapper runes to be removed.  

 

It needs buffs, this is a certain fact.  DH was never utilized prior to Trapper Rune utilization.

[Crab Fear.1624]

no it dont need buffs, crabs pov

3 hours ago, Arken.3725 said:

The idea of it being rebuilt is never going to happen so that argument will never be had.  Guardian has NEVER been considered the "blue thief," it doesn't have NEARLY the mobility of thief nor the disengage potential(unless we're talking trapper runes).  

 

There's a reason that outside of support core, no other build is even considered in the MOTA, even Trapper DH.  It's a pub stomper, that's all.  It's a joke build vs other roamers.  I know that it's not viable at the absolute top-tier and I'm still calling for trapper runes to be removed.  

 

It needs buffs, this is a certain fact.  DH was never utilized prior to Trapper Rune utilization.

Mobility they have, disengage not so much.

 

except trapper DH now, lol

Edited October 21, 2021 by Crab Fear.1624

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Give up there is no hope. Guard is forever stuck on support or fotm gimmicks. Also nerf ToF.

[Arken.3725]

I guess it was a mistake to have a civil discussion filled with objectivity.  Everything I stated within the OP was factual, nothing was pulled out of my behind.  And yet, all we see here are people still having no idea.  Here's it simplified.

 

- Trapper is the issue.

- DH has never been utilized in a mota with potential

- No one played DH until Trapper Runes became widely utilized

- Without Trapper Runes, do you guys honestly think this spec would ever be used?

[Bazsi.2734]

We kept complaining about trapper rune for years now. The argument I peddled mostly was "classes should have an identity, stealth and superspeed goes directly against what guardian class identity is".
Well guess what, EoD launches with a bunch of e-spec mechanics that sh*t on core class design, a-net doubles down on the "everyone can be anything" philosophy by turning classes into nothing more but a choice of color. Which some of you might like, I personally absolutely hate it.
 

And it's not just that I hate it, I have no idea how to argue against trapper runes now. It's just one of the assets of blue thief.

[Bewt.9258]

1 hour ago, Arken.3725 said:

I guess it was a mistake to have a civil discussion filled with objectivity.  Everything I stated within the OP was factual, nothing was pulled out of my behind.  And yet, all we see here are people still having no idea.  Here's it simplified.

 

- Trapper is the issue.

- DH has never been utilized in a mota with potential

- No one played DH until Trapper Runes became widely utilized

- Without Trapper Runes, do you guys honestly think this spec would ever be used?

 

They have never played or played against DH without trapper runes to see for themselves, Arkin. You're talking to ignorant players here. 

 

I totally agree with you. Anyone who has a shred of braincells on who/what to target will know that a dps DH is one of the easiest targets to focus down, second only to FB. I swear GW2 players have an irrational hatred of Guardian and want none of its specs to be played. They want every match to be revs holos and daredevils.

 

The fact is, without stealth/superspeed DH can not complete past Gold. That's a huge problem and I've only ever seen you or Math sane enough to bring it up to the community. 

[Crab Fear.1624]

2 hours ago, Arken.3725 said:

I guess it was a mistake to have a civil discussion filled with objectivity.  Everything I stated within the OP was factual, nothing was pulled out of my behind.  And yet, all we see here are people still having no idea.  Here's it simplified.

 

- Trapper is the issue.

- DH has never been utilized in a mota with potential

- No one played DH until Trapper Runes became widely utilized

- Without Trapper Runes, do you guys honestly think this spec would ever be used?

Yeah, guards should be pigeon holed into support roles.

Accept that as the way.

Just like thief is the decapper and +1.

Just the way it is, if you get out that lane, it gets hammered.

Move on.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

4 hours ago, Arken.3725 said:

I guess it was a mistake to have a civil discussion filled with objectivity.  Everything I stated within the OP was factual, nothing was pulled out of my behind.  And yet, all we see here are people still having no idea.  Here's it simplified.

 

- Trapper is the issue.

- DH has never been utilized in a mota with potential

- No one played DH until Trapper Runes became widely utilized

- Without Trapper Runes, do you guys honestly think this spec would ever be used?

Without trapper runes DH cant compete with rev, holo, thief, mirage as a roamer, so they are just an ok teamfighter/duelist. The problem is that the class isnt really meant to be a roamer, trapper runes just let it fill that role. If anything I would like to see guardian have a strong side noder build, but its hard to say what could get buffed without making guard overpowered in its current roles.

[Math.5123]

1 hour ago, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Without trapper runes DH cant compete with rev, holo, thief, mirage as a roamer, so they are just an ok teamfighter/duelist. The problem is that the class isnt really meant to be a roamer, trapper runes just let it fill that role. If anything I would like to see guardian have a strong side noder build, but its hard to say what could get buffed without making guard overpowered in its current roles.

How will dh be an okay duelist? Which other duelist does it reliably beat?

[anjo.6143]

Ppl want classes be immortal, high dmg, high mob, stealth, port, aoe condis, high heal, high defense, jeez dude, do u wanna play another role? Pick another kitten class, you cant have all stats. 

[Math.5123]

39 minutes ago, anjo.6143 said:

Ppl want classes be immortal, high dmg, high mob, stealth, port, aoe condis, high heal, high defense, jeez dude, do u wanna play another role? Pick another kitten class, you cant have all stats. 

This is just riddled with misinformation and bias. No guardian build has ever had high mobilty. Not even trapper runes DH. 

You're giving up all form of sustain to achieve high damage numbers, because if you can't 100-0 something. You won't kill it, because of your lack of mobilty. 

Aoe condis? Burn guard was nerfed by around 65% a couple months ago. It is literally unplayable. 

High defense, sure. If you build into sustain you'll have high defense. But that's every class. 

Immortal is the one that really gets me. Go through literally any mAT vod with support guard in them and they will die about as much as the rest of his team combined. 

 

I can see you have a dislike of guardians, but just spewing lies isn't going to lead to a constructive conversation. 

[Titansteel.8627]

It's crazy too because Guardian is actually really good. It has a crazy high skill cap that allows for creative gameplay and impressive combo plays. The problem is, is that GW2's power creep seems to really invalidate these types of toolkits. The whole Longbow 5 on yourself, trap dump and f1 to pull someone into your traps is basically roleplaying when you have people doing all of that by pressing one or two buttons. It is SO easy to shut that down and for some classes, will quite literally make a DH useless.

Disclaimer - I'm a mediocre guardian at best but that's kind of the problem. I do well in raids and WvW is its own thing but in terms of conquest, learning how to get good at a class with this type of paradigm is goofy when I can accomplish the same exact thing by rerolling professions or sitting in core guardian. Dragonhunter is just not fun in PvP at all. You absolutely do need trapper runes but at this point, EVERYONE is expecting it. Whenever I play against another DH I just feel like we're two children playing a game of "im not touching you!" and it makes it obvious where the build stands right now.

[Downstate.4697]

Trapper runes allow them to run zerker amulet much more safely. It allows for damage set up without showing animations. The build wouldnt be relevant without it. 

[Arken.3725]

10 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

no it dont need buffs, crabs pov

Mobility they have, disengage not so much.

 

except trapper DH now, lol

Funny you mention this because I agree!!!  Guardian has always had a way of getting to their target but it's always "I have to win or die."  

 

Here are the changes I'd make:

Nerfs:

- Remove Trapper runes OR remove the stealth aspect from it.

Buffs:

- Speed up deflecting shot to 1/2 second

- Completely fix tracking on the Auto-Attack(more of a bug fix than buff)

- Reduce CD of Fragments of Faith to 30 seconds

- Massively increase the revealed time and damage of Light's Judgement

- Put damage back on Dragon's Maw and reduce cd to 40 seconds

- Make Wings of Resolve an evade

- Reduce cast-time of Spear to 1/2 seconds

More than that needs to be done to EVEN compete with current roamers/duelists but it would be a start.

 

Edited October 21, 2021 by Arken.3725

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

  

20 hours ago, Arken.3725 said:

The idea of it being rebuilt is never going to happen so that argument will never be had.

 

Well that's always been the issue has it not. Changing numbers around, really does nothing to balance the game. The subject matter behind this is rather deep, and I think because you are a player with a voice to a larger community, You should listen closely to what is about to be said: 

 

In order to balance the game, requires a complete sacrifice to diversity of choices.

 

The above is a principle, meaning it is not up for debate on whether its true or not. The consequence of such a thing means that, changing numbers around (buffs and nerfs) is an absolutely futile operation that leads nowhere. You can read this comment where I prove the above principle, and there was also discussion where someone did a more formal proof that showed it to be isomorphic via bijection. I would also suggest doing similar exercises yourself.

 

So...buffing or nerfing numbers does nothing in an attempt to balance the game...and simply changing numbers, even in an attempt not to keep the game balance, is an aimless operation. So what then actually changes balance, that doesn't sacrifice diversity? because surely, the two exist together and it's possible to have both. The answer is that it's all  "mechanics" and their complexity.

 

Consider the following example:

 

Let's pretend for a moment that we have the option to change Trapper Runes Effect into either of the two following choices: 

Double-click to apply to a piece of armor.

(6): Gain 3 seconds of 🙈stealth and  🐆  Superspeed when using a Utility skill.

 

or

 

(6): Gain 1 seconds of 🙈 stealth and 🐆 Superspeed when using a Trap skill.

In the first choice, we've change the mechanic to effect all utility skills rather then just trap skills. In the second choice we've changed the numerical duration of stealth and superspeed. 

 

I want you to think really long about the key differences between why these two balance changes above are truly different from one another, and how they effect balance and diversity in the game given the above principle. 

 

To cut to the chase, the key difference between the two, is that the first choice increases the games complexity, while the other does not. Diversity is inextricably tied to complexity, and so the first operation...even though it is pretty ridiculous as a 3 second duration, will increase diversity across the game by a very significant margin. Why? Because it adds an incredibly huge dimension or possibility space to the game. All that really means is that, the number of states or configurations the game could be in increases. Simple math problem : There's only 10 trap utilities in the game, and there are maybe...300 utilities in total. So a change like this, increased the dimensionality of the game from a factor of x^10 to x^300 where x is the number of elements in the game.

 

So what does the second change do? Well, it does pretty much nothing, other then further push the duration closer to 0, and closer to homogenization. Since it contributes nothing to the complexity of the game, diversity largely remains unchanged, and the process which diversity goes through continues as per normal. This is really the issue that you are talking about...Guardian has no viable builds, this rune is the only thing that makes them viable, and changing this number further incentives players to not play this rune. Because you changed nothing about the complexity space of the game, it just means guardian gets 1 less build then it did before and diversity globally continues to drop as it always does. The same exact thing happens, but in reverse with buffs (rather than diverging into a set of infinitely useless builds with 0 damage, 0 duration etc... all builds converge to a single most useful build. both sets in this case are homogenous)

 

In summary, because now this post is getting too long... buffs and nerfs don't really do anything The only way to achieve meaningful change to the balance and diversity of the game and by proxy to the class of guardian is through altering mechanics and perhaps fundamental game design elements that INCREASE the possibility/complexity space. So it is a discussion that must be had...if not then there really is no point we can all just say nerf this buff that and basically go no-where for the next few years, which we've been kinda doing already.

 

Cheers,

Edited October 21, 2021 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[aelska.4609]

I really feel that DH is a failed attempt to create "a core guard, but stronger": F2 heals more and gives mobility, F3 blocks more, lb #2 is a ranged mighty blow, lb #5 is a ranged ring of warding, lb #3 is quite similar to zealot embrace. Traps give the same boons as shouts.

 

Problem is that current design lacks fluidity: cast time on virtues, traps, rooting longbow skills that have no interaction to other weapon skills and traits. A bit sad, given how fluid the 2012 guard is.

 

Imo, trapper runes bring DH closer to deadeye than core guard: mobility and stealth are used to snipe the target with insane modifiers on a true shot. I don't think it was supposed to be designed that way, but that's actually a reasonably fun build to play.

 

If anet wants to resurrect DH they will need to fix its clunkiness and give more deepness to the traps, so that they become tactical tools. I like the F1 pull as it gives more complexity to the class, but it could be instant (for the pull part). Longbow, for it's part, should be redesigned to support the melee weapons guard have : why not change lb 2 to a delayed shadowstep, that would combo well with lb 5 and GS or hammer 2 ?

[Lucentfir.7430]

What we really need is another patent CMC February Patch- 2022 edition.  Skills that inflict immobilize should be reduced to 10 damage. All the skills that apply soft cc need their damage to be reduced by 70%. Scaling on damage conditions are also kinda wacky so we should nerf the damage on bleed, burning, and torment by at least 33%. Regen is sort of a brainless boon so we should rework it so it heals you when you hit people, rather than per second, MUCH more interactive. Increase the cooldowns across the board by 33%. Remove reveal, but now if you are struck in stealth, stealth is removed, damaging conditions will reveal you, but only after a 1000 damage threshold. Also increase the cast times on a wide range of skills by 0.5s 🙂

Edited October 21, 2021 by Lucentfir.7430

[Swagg.9236]

19 hours ago, Arken.3725 said:

The idea of it being rebuilt is never going to happen so that argument will never be had.  Guardian has NEVER been considered the "blue thief," it doesn't have NEARLY the mobility of thief nor the disengage potential(unless we're talking trapper runes).  

 

There's a reason that outside of support core, no other build is even considered in the MOTA, even Trapper DH.  It's a pub stomper, that's all.  It's a joke build vs other roamers.  I know that it's not viable at the absolute top-tier and I'm still calling for trapper runes to be removed.  

 

It needs buffs, this is a certain fact.  DH was never utilized prior to Trapper Rune utilization.

The only thing you could buff, however, is arguably the most shallow playstyle in GW2 (and possibly video games in general).  It doesn't matter if Guardian doesn't have the spammable mobility buttons that Thief does; Guardian charges in and spams until it dies or kills something.  It bursts quick after engaging and then either dies immediately or prolongs its death with various skills that grant protracted damage/effect negation.  When you talk about "buffing" a no-trap-build Guardian, you're talking about working explicitly with this sort of kit--which means that you're basically going to have no choice but to make it deal so much damage so easily that it will successfully win fights despite being extremely low-effort and predictable.

Once again and no more:  you are going to have to entirely redesign what Guardian consistently brings to the table if you want to actually give it a worthwhile role; you can't just "buff" "things" to make Guardian "good" because you're only going to make it as oppressive and boring as something like sword/focus weaver.  You need to STOP MAKING CLONES of things that already exist in the game--GW2 is already homogenized and oversaturated with bloat.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

On 10/21/2021 at 10:47 AM, Arken.3725 said:

I guess it was a mistake to have a civil discussion filled with objectivity.  Everything I stated within the OP was factual, nothing was pulled out of my behind.  And yet, all we see here are people still having no idea.  Here's it simplified.

 

- Trapper is the issue.

- DH has never been utilized in a mota with potential

- No one played DH until Trapper Runes became widely utilized

- Without Trapper Runes, do you guys honestly think this spec would ever be used?

He's right. Everything DH brings (or used to bring) to the table in terms of teamfighting is absurdly outdone by necromancers and scourges. The projectile hate in this game is at an all-time high, with scrappers re-joining the mix.

Well, then how does DH fare on the sides? Pretty bad, as many have mentioned, their in-combat mobility is OKAY (and DH absolutely should have the re-positioning tools it has, maybe more), but the disengage capabilities are a far cry from ranger, warrior, elementalist and mesmer. Even support guardian is better at disengaging.

So, either you give DH enough damage and/or sustain where it can efficiently pressure in a high risk/reward (aka high commitment) -setting, or it's going to be trash forevermore. Currently, a capable +1 will demolish a DH (w/o Trapper Rune). 

Something needs to be done because the mobility creep is only getting worse with EoD, and DH's pseudo-selfish utility isn't capable of keeping it afloat anymore - even against pubs.

Edited October 22, 2021 by NorthernRedStar.3054

[Buran.3796]

20 hours ago, Arken.3725 said:

 

 

There's a reason that outside of support core, no other build is even considered in the MOTA, even Trapper DH.  It's a pub stomper, that's all.  It's a joke build vs other roamers.  I know that it's not viable at the absolute top-tier and I'm still calling for trapper runes to be removed.  

 

   So now that Firebrand has been deleted entirely from the PvP game mode for more than a year, and that burn DH have been nerfed to nothingless fror more than half a year you want the power DH trapper (which also has no place in high end PvP) to be replaced by a non-trapper DH (which probably won't work anyway)? And all of this while the next spec will bring Guardian players an absolute joke of yolo build with 0 chances at PvP...

   You (and a lot with you) moaned about symbols being passive gameplay and op and boring, so ANet destroyed both symbolic core Guardian and symbolic Firebrand, the same way that they deleted the radiant blade (retaliation x enhanced fury) and now you're asking again for the deletion of a build which at least is played/viable, granting nothingness instead...

   What the game needs is more viable builds, not erasing the current ones. An  changes based on balancing the skills, not in removing half of the amulets and runes we had on the past. And if people are running glass cannon DH trappers is because they made the meta so spongy in terms of damage that going full zerk and having some cc suddenly works.

[anjo.6143]

8 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

This is just riddled with misinformation and bias. No guardian build has ever had high mobilty. Not even trapper runes DH. 

You're giving up all form of sustain to achieve high damage numbers, because if you can't 100-0 something. You won't kill it, because of your lack of mobilty. 

Aoe condis? Burn guard was nerfed by around 65% a couple months ago. It is literally unplayable. 

High defense, sure. If you build into sustain you'll have high defense. But that's every class. 

Immortal is the one that really gets me. Go through literally any mAT vod with support guard in them and they will die about as much as the rest of his team combined. 

 

I can see you have a dislike of guardians, but just spewing lies isn't going to lead to a constructive conversation. 

 

Dh trap is super mob with rune and port. 

Immortal was a connotation. 

Burnguardian was stupid. 

 

Now you wanna DH get *buffs*?! Do you think it is weak? Jeez! 

 

What do you wanna add on DH? More damage? More speed? More defense? Even less CD? 

[Math.5123]

3 hours ago, anjo.6143 said:

 

Dh trap is super mob with rune and port. 

Immortal was a connotation. 

Burnguardian was stupid. 

 

Now you wanna DH get *buffs*?! Do you think it is weak? Jeez! 

 

What do you wanna add on DH? More damage? More speed? More defense? Even less CD? 

Off the top of my head.

Reduce trueshot dmg by 50% and reducing the cd to 4 seconds. Basically leaving the same dps, but half the dmg and cd.

 

Speed up deflecting shot to .5 seconds.

 

Speed up velocity of lb4. 

 

Make the AA cripple regardless if you hit one or two targets. OR make it bounce like thief shortbow, not just to targets behind yours. 

 

Reduce the dmg by test of faith, give the guard X seconds of prot when people cross test of faith. 

 

Add evade frame to F2, OR make it heal and cleanse on skill cast instead of at the end of it. Like withdraw works on thief. 

 

Make soaring devastation keep move Speed buff regardless if you use f2. This is the only 25% ms trait that works like this.

 

Remove lights judgement from the game. 

 

 

Once again, these are just of the top of my head. Also obviously remove trapper runes. 

 

 

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Why does everyone want to buff deflecting shot its already an aoe unblockable blind+cc+projectile block on a 10s cooldown and you can cast it behind you.