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The Mechanist - new engineer EoD elite spec


Jijimuge.4675

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6 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

You speak like you'e losing all core Utilities and Kits which is not the case at all.¬†ūüėČūüėČ

You think you are joking, but actually you are not far from the truth.
Almost all elixirs are good because they have Toss abilities. Without them they are pretty lackluster and do not fulfill their supportive nature.
Almost all Kits's toolbelt skills (with exception of, maybe, flamethrower) contain a huge part of power of those Kits.
Literally ALL Gadgets are lackluster by themselves, only a few of them are redeemable only when they are in a package with a toolbelt skill.
All turrets, with exception of healing turret, are trash. Only Riffle Turret is usable, but only because of toolbelt skills and only in one particular Static Discharge build. And Thumper Turret theoretically could be redeemed because its toolbelt skills is a stun break.

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28 minutes ago, Xaylin.1860 said:

You speak like you'e losing all core Utilities and Kits which is not the case at all.¬†ūüėČūüėČ

Nah ONLY 24 (27 if you count elite) toolbelt skills  in exchange for these mech commands (mostly damage orientated skills, easy to avoid and lacking in survivability utility) all of which will disappear entirely when the mech in dead/unsummoned (from 10 to 100 seconds).

Edited by santenal.1054
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1 hour ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

You think you are joking, but actually you are not far from the truth.
Almost all elixirs are good because they have Toss abilities. Without them they are pretty lackluster and do not fulfill their supportive nature.
Almost all Kits's toolbelt skills (with exception of, maybe, flamethrower) contain a huge part of power of those Kits.
Literally ALL Gadgets are lackluster by themselves, only a few of them are redeemable only when they are in a package with a toolbelt skill.
All turrets, with exception of healing turret, are trash. Only Riffle Turret is usable, but only because of toolbelt skills and only in one particular Static Discharge build. And Thumper Turret theoretically could be redeemed because its toolbelt skills is a stun break.

Surprise Shot isn't just used with static discharge builds, but comes up often in power DPS builds in general. But that just proves the point - it's taken for the toolbelt skill.

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Having noticed many people are worried about the lack of toolbelt skills while the Jade Mech is out, there could be a redeeming feature: If the mech uses the toolbelt skills to perform special attacks, what happens to the toolbelt when the mech's not out?

Maybe that's when the toolbelt skills of old return.

So if you want your old toolbelt skills (or the new Signets' abilities), you can put away the mech, and if you want to command your mech to do things, you'll have to deal with altered toolbelt skills.

Additionally, I noticed that the wiki entry doesn't touch F5, which means that maybe it's always active. With all the other specs eating up the Elite toolbelt skill, having something that doesn't could spice things up. Or- going into the extreme here- maybe F5 allows you to toggle between your toolbelt skills and the Mech while it's active, being replaced with your normal Elite toolbelt skill if the Mech isn't summoned.

Personally, my first character was an Engineer, and after reading the trailer and wiki entry for this new spec, I've fallen deeply in love with the idea. I guess we'll have to wait until the beta test comes out to have all our hopes fulfilled.

Edited by david r.3947
New idea came up for F5.
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1 minute ago, david r.3947 said:

Having noticed many people are worried about the lack of toolbelt skills while the Jade Mech is out, there could be a redeeming feature: If the mech uses the toolbelt skills to perform special attacks, what happens to the toolbelt when the mech's not out?

Maybe that's when the toolbelt skills of old return.

So if you want your old toolbelt skills (or the new Signets' abilities), you can put away the mech, and if you want to command your mech to do things, you'll have to deal with altered toolbelt skills.

Additionally, I noticed that the wiki entry doesn't touch F5, which means that maybe it's always active. With all the other specs eating up the Elite Toolbelt skill, having something that doesn't could spice things up.

Personally, my first character was an Engineer, and after reading the trailer and wiki entry for this new spec, I've fallen deeply in love with the idea. I guess we'll have to wait until the beta test comes out to have all our hopes fulfilled.

You should watch showcase stream instead of relying on wiki.
There is no toolbelt at all. Never.
There is no F5 at all. Never.
Signets don't even have toolbelt skills.
Pet completely replaces toolbelt.
Even if pet is dead or dismissed, toolbelt is still unavailable.

Still love it?

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5 hours ago, Bomboed.5697 said:

There is no toolbelt at all. Never.
There is no F5 at all. Never.
Signets don't even have toolbelt skills.
Pet completely replaces toolbelt.
Even if pet is dead or dismissed, toolbelt is still unavailable.

Still love it?

Having now watched the stream, I'm actually liking the Mech even more. It's a bummer to not see the toolbelt skills, but this is a beta test. This could be changed at the official release. Additionally, with the Mech's ridiculously high HP and stat inheritance, possible traiting for ranged attacks, and two skills to summon it, there's very little mech downtime in my opinion. It's basically turning the Engineer into a Ranger, and I have no problems with that if the mech is so tanky and I have so much control over its skills.

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Can we please talk about the personal sustain of the e spec?

Even holo has more sustain. It has healing based on heat sink and a bit barrier.

On this spec we have no dmg reduction, no healing or whatever in traits. All traits are wasted for mech skills. We even got no confusion duration what we actually should get since the spec is so pumped with confusion.
In fractals or whatever we will die like a fly.

The toolbelt stuff and the traits need a full rework. Wasting all traits for mech skills is not good. Considering the mech is not even perm this is even worse.

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I don't like it. I don't like it at all. There was another thread talking about it 'being a whole new class'.  Being a whole new class is the entire problem. Holosmith is the same way. Most other elite specs add something interesting or reinvigorate the base class mechanics. Dragonhunter still does virtues, Weaver still does attunements. Berserker still does adrenaline, Necro does shroud, and so on. 

All three Engineer elite specs try their absolute hardest to forget about Engineer. All three of them are designed to be 'not Engineer.' Scrapper and Holosmith give you a slightly more busy  Warrior gameplay experience, and Mechanist gives you Ranger. You follow me? I suspect this is why Engineer is the least played. Why would I play gadget Warrior, when I could just get the full flavored Warrior?

Why are Tools, Alchemy, and Invention trait lines useless? Why isn't there a real condition spec that isn't just adding burning damage to Holo skills? Why are both Pistol and Rifle so bad? (I know, some Holo builds occasionally press Rifle buttons.) Why do none of the Scrapper traits effect conditions?  Why isn't there a worthwile auto attack that isn't tied to an elite spec? Why are turrets so bad? Why is Elixir, Tool, Med, Mortar, and Bomb kit largely useless? Why weren't those aspects of the class ever expanded upon? 

Every time I play my Engineer, I feel thrust into the situation of which other class do I want to imitate. Which other class do I want to rent. Which flavor of another class do I want to borrow on my Engineer. This problem has went unaddressed for the better part of a decade now. Every time Arena Net has had the option to revitalize Engineer, they have instead chosen to forget about it. 

And Mechanist is just more of that. You don't even have to look very far to see it. None of the traits affect anything besides the mech. It's designed entirely insular.  It addresses none of the issues while, once again, stapling a different class on top of Engineer.

Edited by nucklepuckk.1805
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There's damage reduction, it's just not as obvious.
Rectifier Signet has passive healing.
Barrier Signet is -10% damage reduction at all times especially when you have J-Drive which lets you keep signet passives.

Explosives traitline is still accessible to Mechanist as well , however conditions are more likely to be run so you would use Shrapnel instead of Big Boomer.

Mace auto has barrier production , but the primary issue with it is confusion has zero synergy with engineer as a class. There's no confusion improving trait or a bleeding application on confusion application. In addition, in fractals or even in openworld vs exposed breakbars it is a net DPS loss when you have confusion instead of burning, torment (unlikely to be applied by engineers), poison, or bleeding.

If you opt for Barrier Engine trait it's going to pump out barrier passively as well. The issue with that trait is it does nothing when the mech is not present. It ought to double barrier output on mace if your mech is "away for repairs".

The spec overall seems designed for openworld unless you can have aggro lock onto the golem in a fractal/raid scenario. Anywhere there are mobs that don't die near instantly or have breakbars it doesn't seem well equipped to deal with it overall.

One of the things I think ought to be looked at is a ranged mech build, i.e. power with Jade Cannons, J-Drive and force signet using rifle + grenades as opposed to rifle+bomb kit. However, I'm not optimistic about that archetype since you lose grenade barrage and Variable Mass Distributor is merely 50% stat conversion.

Edited by Infusion.7149
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18 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

There's damage reduction, it's just not as obvious.
Rectifier Signet has passive healing.
Barrier Signet is -10% damage reduction at all times especially when you have J-Drive which lets you keep signet passives.

Mace auto has barrier production , but the primary issue with it is confusion has zero synergy with engineer as a class. There's no confusion improving trait or a bleeding application on confusion application. In addition, in fractals or even in openworld vs exposed breakbars it is a net DPS loss when you have confusion instead of burning, torment (unlikely to be applied by engineers), poison, or bleeding.

If you opt for Barrier Engine trait it's going to pump out barrier passively as well. The issue with that trait is it does nothing when the mech is not present. It ought to double barrier output on mace if your mech is "away for repairs".

The spec overall seems designed for openworld unless you can have aggro lock onto the golem in a fractal/raid scenario. Anywhere there are mobs that don't die near instantly or have breakbars it doesn't seem well equipped to deal with it overall.
 

Well the healing signet is not counting imo since its a heal skill. Every e spec and class has a heal skill. 

What i basically meant is something thats already in your dps build. In fractals or raids you wont sacrifice ur dps to get less damage. Especially not taking the dmg reduction instead of a Kit. 

Something in your minor traits would be nice. Like holo has. Thats why i also hate it that our traits are wasted for mech skills. 

Confusion is surely worse than other condis in most pve parts and for dps u ll also use pistol instead of mace if we look how mace is atm, so u also dont get the barrier of mace. 

And in fractals we will use 111 or 113 in mechanist anyway, so no barrier. 

The nearly all classes have dmg reductions or something like that in minor traits. In dps builds. Those that dont, have 19k base hp or/And heavy armor or/And healing on minor traits.

Edited by SeTect.5918
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29 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Can we please talk about the personal sustain of the e spec?

Even holo has more sustain. It has healing based on heat sink and a bit barrier.

On this spec we have no dmg reduction, no healing or whatever in traits. All traits are wasted for mech skills. We even got no confusion duration what we actually should get since the spec is so pumped with confusion.
In fractals or whatever we will die like a fly.

The toolbelt stuff and the traits need a full rework. Wasting all traits for mech skills is not good. Considering the mech is not even perm this is even worse.

Its actually really good sustain theoretically. Only issue is if our mech can deal the damage to account for it. Otherwise we kill  nothing with this build lol.

Inventions - 1 3 1

Alchemy - 2 1 2

Mech - X 2 2/3

Weapons: X / Shield

Util Skills: Barrier or Shift Signet, Force Signet, Elixir Gun

Heal: Anything but Med Kit. AED and Rectifier are BiS.

Elite: Overclock Signet  

Stats: Celestial

Rune: Defenders

Sigils: Cleansing and Hydro

Reasoning: 40% Prot uptime Perm. Applying weakness Perm. Constant Heal from Sig. 5% heals on blocks. Perm Alacrity. High amts of barrier application.

 

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2 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Well the healing signet is not counting imo since its a heal skill. Every e spec and clasd has a heal skill. 

What i basically meant is something thats already in your dps build. In fractals or raids you wont sacrifice ur dps to get less damage. Especially not taking the dmg reduction instead of a Kit. 

Something in your minor traits would be nice. Like holo has. Thats why i also hate it that our traits are wasted for mech skills. 

Confusion is surely worse than other condis in most pve parts and for dps u ll also use pistol instead of mace if we look how mace is atm, so u also dont get the barrier of mace. 

And in fractals we will use 111 or 113 in mechanist anyway, so no barrier. 

The nearly all classes have dmg reductions or something like that in minor traits. In dps builds. Those that dont, have 19k base hp or/And heavy armor or/And healing on minor traits.

There's no power damage improvement beyond the force signet and it's a condi meta in fractals right now. You would not run mechanist in fractals for DPS because there is more or less no burst at all since you lose grenade barrage, Solar Focusing Lens, as well as Photon Blitz.

  • Rolling Smash is the toolbelt replacement if you run Mechanist 1-1-1 or 1-1-3 and it applies 8 stacks of bleeding, one of the lowest damage conditions considering engineers' Serrated Steel is a duration increase and not a damage increase as on Soulbeast.¬†
  • Discharge Array is going to be more or less useless in most fractal scenarios, it has 2 stacks of confusion per pulse which is less than your mace auto chain or static shot (pistol 3). I feel as though it will just be a side effect of having to use Conductive Alloys trait for any condi build.
  • Jade Mortar is 3 stacks of burning so it is mediocre, you're more likely to use it for the daze CC and it isn't a strong replacement for Flamethrower's Incendiary Ammo which isn't mech reliant.
  • Superconducting signet pulses confusion but it has a passive +180 condition damage.


Running Renegade rune is +7% condition damage output and bursting sigil is +5% condition damage which doesn't remotely match something akin to Amplified Wrath (+15% burning damage), Demonic Lore (+25% torment damage + added burning) , Potent Poison (+33% Poison Damage) , Poison Master (+25% Poison Damage), Hidden Barbs (+33% Bleeding damage), Heartpiercer or Deadly Ambush (+25% bleeding damage), or even Larcenous Torment (+20% torment damage) on the new specter spec.

See Condi holo with holo traitline removed http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAoqjJYaGn1hj1SOA-zRJYmRD/Z0hCIEJgcPIBxG4tw7NA-e
With +180 condition damage from Superconducting signet,  i.e. 1943 condition damage stat

  • Burning --- ~100% duration on condi holo gear¬† , (0.155 * Condition Damage) + 131 = 432 before rune/sigils
    ---> means Jade Mortar can only do ~ 1.5K cDPS since it is 3 stacks
    ---> pistol 4 / Blowtorch is 4 stacks ~1.8K cDPS
    ---> Rocket Fist Protype is 1 stack of burning for 5s
    ---> fire bomb is 4 pulses of burning
    ---> flame blast (flame thrower) is up to 3 stacks of burning
    ---> Napalm (flame thrower) has a 8s long burning field that can hit 9 times , 3s burning per strike
    ---> Prime Light Beam on holo has a 10s long burning field, 3s base burning per strike
    ---> Throw Napalm (toolbelt skill you don't have access to , only if you run flame turret instead of flamethrower) has 4 pulses of burning
  • Torment (non-existent on build) --- (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22 = 139 minimum, (0.09 * Condition Damage) + 31.8 = 206 before rune/sigil and traits
  • Bleeding¬† --- ~100% duration on condi holo gear ,¬† (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 22 = 139 before rune/sigils
    ---> means Rolling Smash is ~1.2K cDPS since it is 8 stacks of bleeding
    ---> pistols put out a stack of 16s bleeding every ~1.2s which is ~2.3K damage
    ---> shrapnel grenade is 3 stacks of bleeding before traits if all 3 grenades hit
  • Poison --- (0.06 * Condition Damage) + 33.5 = 150 before rune/sigils
    ---> poison dart volley (pistol 2) is 5 stacks <1K cDPS but with gear it is around 20s duration
    ---> poison grenade is 9 stacks of poison if all 3 grenades hit
  • Confusion --- (0.03 * Condition Damage + 11) = 69 before rune/sigils , ~239 per skill activation
    ---> 2 stacks of confusion is at most ~600 damage but against exposed breakbars it is around 300 damage which doesn't compare to burning especially since you won't cap the duration and have ~67% duration instead
    ---> Concussion bomb is 6 stacks of confusion

     

Because it's Mechanist and not alchemist it makes sense to have mace do bleeding especially since it's melee. The only exception would probably be W5 Soulless Horror where it doesn't jump around far (will mech not get run over by walls?) unlike W6 Twin Largos ; W2 Matthias isn't insanely strong for confusion.

What cDPS Mechanist needed to compete in fractals is something that stacks of bleeding/burning in a 5 second exposed window order to compete with something akin to Firebrand/Renegade/Scourge since it has a severe condition damage modifier deficiency. Rolling Smash isn't too bad but nothing remotely compares even to Photon Blitz on holo (1s base duration , 8 stacks of burning with an additional 2 stacks from Solar Focusing Lens) nor the toolbelt skills you lose such as Throw Napalm or Incendiary Ammo. If it's to be an easier to play condi spec, Discharge Array should have never been confusion-based (which requires timing your confusion) and  instead apply 4+ burning or 6+ bleeding pulses since it does no CC.


P.S. is Tool Kit going to repair Mechs?

Edited by Infusion.7149
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3 hours ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

Its actually really good sustain theoretically. Only issue is if our mech can deal the damage to account for it. Otherwise we kill  nothing with this build lol.

Inventions - 1 3 1

Alchemy - 2 1 2

Mech - X 2 2/3

Weapons: X / Shield

Util Skills: Barrier or Shift Signet, Force Signet, Elixir Gun

Heal: Anything but Med Kit. AED and Rectifier are BiS.

Elite: Overclock Signet  

Stats: Celestial

Rune: Defenders

Sigils: Cleansing and Hydro

Reasoning: 40% Prot uptime Perm. Applying weakness Perm. Constant Heal from Sig. 5% heals on blocks. Perm Alacrity. High amts of barrier application.

 

Well yes, but i basically meant included in your dps build already. 

Like i said here:

3 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Well the healing signet is not counting imo since its a heal skill. Every e spec and class has a heal skill. 

What i basically meant is something thats already in your dps build. In fractals or raids you wont sacrifice ur dps to get less damage. Especially not taking the dmg reduction instead of a Kit. 

Something in your minor traits would be nice. Like holo has. Thats why i also hate it that our traits are wasted for mech skills. 

Confusion is surely worse than other condis in most pve parts and for dps u ll also use pistol instead of mace if we look how mace is atm, so u also dont get the barrier of mace. 

And in fractals we will use 111 or 113 in mechanist anyway, so no barrier. 

The nearly all classes have dmg reductions or something like that in minor traits. In dps builds. Those that dont, have 19k base hp or/And heavy armor or/And healing on minor traits.

 

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I like the idea of this spec, however, I do agree with the general sentiment that no tool belt when the mech is offline is an awful idea.

All of the core utility skills are designed with the tool belt in mind, without the tool belt some utility skills become straight garbage (Med Kit being the worst offender).

You're going to lose your mech in combat, which is already a downside on itself, you don't need to be punished more, so yeah the tool belt skills should absolutely be there when the mech is offline.

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On 10/23/2021 at 4:01 PM, Bomboed.5697 said:

Mechanist design simply limits the choice of 6-10 buttons skills. It looks like a "5 signet Engi" joke is not a joke at all, because signets are the only skills designed and balanced without toolbelt.

The irony is that Mechanist presented as highly customizable jack of all trades, but in reality is will be the less customizable spec, because Mech customization costs the entire trait line and also limits all other form of customization due to removal of toolbelt.

 

There are more trait lines you can use. You can still use Firearms, Explosions in two or three different ways if not more. I see possibility with the Inventions trait line for a more tanky option. I see options within the Alchemy trait line, I also see options with the Tools trait line.

 

Signets
Rectifier Signet looks good and will be a great passive healing and on demand healing. Not too different from other healing skills. Cooldown seems to be similar to Elixer, A.E.D and Turret. Med Kit seems to be useless from how it is currently implemented.

 

Barrier Signet seems great on the more tanky builds and support builds if you want. But I can see it also being used to just be another use for being a bit more tanky. Works on you as well as your mech.

 

Force Signet great on power specs and works on you and your mech

 

Shift Signet 1200 range shadowstep seems good imo and can see the use you want and you also shadowstep yourself.

 

Superconducting Signet great for the Condi build works both on your mech and you.

 

Overclock Signet I can see it as a great way of getting more use out of your mech. Plus you get your signets to 24 seconds.

 

I for one think there is a lot going on and depending on the interaction with some utilities I can see a great builds popping up. Overall I can see use of taking several signets but I can also see it only be done with a few. I definitely do not think they are mandatory.

 

 

https://i.redd.it/l1875es4l3v71.png

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I just realized that testing the mech is going to amplify my problems significantly.  At the current rate I'm not going to have full legendary in medium armor anytime soon, and the medium armor category is the one where I have the least amount of gear diversity.  That... is going to be a problem, since I'll need to find out the DPS that the mech does while wearing the following:

Vipers with traits 1/1/1

Berserkers with traits 3/3/1

Diviner/Berserker mix to 50% boon duration with traits 2/2/2

I'll also have to find out how much damage the mace/shield or mace/pistol do for each of them alone.  

 

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12 hours ago, RobinotX.1604 said:

 

There are more trait lines you can use. You can still use Firearms, Explosions in two or three different ways if not more. I see possibility with the Inventions trait line for a more tanky option. I see options within the Alchemy trait line, I also see options with the Tools trait line.

 

Signets
Rectifier Signet looks good and will be a great passive healing and on demand healing. Not too different from other healing skills. Cooldown seems to be similar to Elixer, A.E.D and Turret. Med Kit seems to be useless from how it is currently implemented.

 

Barrier Signet seems great on the more tanky builds and support builds if you want. But I can see it also being used to just be another use for being a bit more tanky. Works on you as well as your mech.

 

Force Signet great on power specs and works on you and your mech

 

Shift Signet 1200 range shadowstep seems good imo and can see the use you want and you also shadowstep yourself.

 

Superconducting Signet great for the Condi build works both on your mech and you.

 

Overclock Signet I can see it as a great way of getting more use out of your mech. Plus you get your signets to 24 seconds.

 

I for one think there is a lot going on and depending on the interaction with some utilities I can see a great builds popping up. Overall I can see use of taking several signets but I can also see it only be done with a few. I definitely do not think they are mandatory.

 

 

https://i.redd.it/l1875es4l3v71.png

 

Pretty much agree with both the quoted post and yours To be honest.

 

I don't think 5 signet will be mandatory but it may be optimal.  The signets are also going to cooldown very very fast at this rate if traited that way so will probably be used a bit more actively than we think. 

 

I'm personally not super against a 5 signet build even though it stops some current identity.  The signet seem quite strong and varied with the only one to really swap out being either the power or condi signet depending on if you're running a power / condi build.  For hybrid may take both and give up the shadow step.

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