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Remove condi dmg and nerf sustain?


Beast Sos.1457

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When gw2 was first being released the general idea behind the combat was that I wouldn't need to watch my UI. Instead I would watch what the other player is doing and play based off that. Condi dmg literally destroys that concept. One of the big reasons why spvp is in the state that it is, imo, is bc of condi dmg. It ruins the amazing combat system that Anet did a fantastic job creating. Which is one of the main reasons I always come back to gw2. 

 

Do you guys think condi dmg is a issue? I personally hate it. It takes not skill and ruins what made gw2 amazing. The combat. At this point, with the amount of sustain and condi, the dodge bar isnt nearly as important as it once was. Theres way more spam and way less skill involved.

 

Maybe I'm completely wrong and condi dmg isn't that bad, but currently its been making me dislike spvp as a whole. When you can get rooted for over 10 seconds and when you take 50k burn dmg in a few seconds bc someone spammed there skills, theres a issue. The combat was based off visuals which is no longer the case. Also, if condi gets removed, there wouldn't be a need for so much sustain.

 

PS: Soft CC condi skills should stay, such as blind and immob. The only issue with immob is when there is a high condi duration. This is purely for spvp. Condi is fine in pve. 

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28 minutes ago, Morwath.9817 said:

Condi damage is exacly same as power damage. It's applied by abilities that you can block, dodge or evade. It's effect is just delayed instead of being spiky.

With power builds there more telegraphs, not so much with condi. Making power builds more clear to deal with. With condi builds you just need a ton of access to cleanse skills, no skill required. Also, from what I noticed, power builds have more downtime between the dmg they can do compared to condi.

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35 minutes ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

With power builds there more telegraphs, not so much with condi. Making power builds more clear to deal with. With condi builds you just need a ton of access to cleanse skills, no skill required. Also, from what I noticed, power builds have more downtime between the dmg they can do compared to condi.

I don't know about more telegraphed man.
Have you ever been true shot for 8k out of stealth by a DH?
Has a thief come out of stealth and stealth attack and then spam 22222 for millions of damage out of nowhere? (Also with stealth culling you often get hit a few times before you see)
Have you ever suddenly run into an FA ele that Deletes you in 2 seconds before you can dodge?
Have you been kill shot by a warrior for your entire hp bar through smoke screen?
Have you ever been suddenly exploded by mesmer powerblock f3 into f1?
God kitten One shot rangers!!?

Cause i have and man you have no idea what the hell you are talking about go play some pvp come back here and then give your opinion.

Edited by Genesis.5169
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1 hour ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

When gw2 was first being released the general idea behind the combat was that I wouldn't need to watch my UI. Instead I would watch what the other player is doing and play based off that. Condi dmg literally destroys that concept. One of the big reasons why spvp is in the state that it is, imo, is bc of condi dmg. It ruins the amazing combat system that Anet did a fantastic job creating. Which is one of the main reasons I always come back to gw2. 

 

Do you guys think condi dmg is a issue? I personally hate it. It takes not skill and ruins what made gw2 amazing. The combat. At this point, with the amount of sustain and condi, the dodge bar isnt nearly as important as it once was. Theres way more spam and way less skill involved.

 

Maybe I'm completely wrong and condi dmg isn't that bad, but currently its been making me dislike spvp as a whole. When you can get rooted for over 10 seconds and when you take 50k burn dmg in a few seconds bc someone spammed there skills, theres a issue. The combat was based off visuals which is no longer the case. Also, if condi gets removed, there wouldn't be a need for so much sustain.

 

PS: Soft CC condi skills should stay, such as blind and immob. The only issue with immob is when there is a high condi duration. This is purely for spvp. Condi is fine in pve. 

I personally hate how we just nonstop fight. Target practice golems, mobs, raid bosses, or even other players. It has to stop. Violence is not the answer. "Remove condi damage" is a very nice sentiment but the phrase has one too many words in it.

Just "remove damage" full stop. Learn to solve your problems some other way guys.

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15 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

I don't know about more telegraphed man.
Have you ever been true shot for 8k out of stealth by a DH?
Has a thief come out of stealth and stealth attack and then spam 22222 for millions of damage out of nowhere? (Also with stealth culling you often get hit a few times before you see)
Have you ever suddenly run into an FA ele that Deletes you in 2 seconds before you can dodge?
Have you been kill shot by a warrior for your entire hp bar through smoke screen?
Have you ever been suddenly exploded by mesmer powerblock f3 into f1?
God kitten One shot rangers!!?

Cause i have and man you have no idea what the hell you are talking about go play some pvp come back here and then give your opinion.

You haven't learned to LoS yet have you? Or to use terrain/distance to your advantage? Instead of telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, it would be best if you actually learn how to play. Everything you mentioned is easily dealt with. Bad positioning will get you in bad situations. Pretty straight forward. 

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17 minutes ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

You haven't learned to LoS yet have you? Or to use terrain/distance to your advantage? Instead of telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, it would be best if you actually learn how to play. Everything you mentioned is easily dealt with. Bad positioning will get you in bad situations. Pretty straight forward. 

Wait are telling me that those things dont work against condition damage?
Also i thought you said the issue was things being telegraphed?
So what exactly are you complaining about?

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8 minutes ago, Genesis.5169 said:

Wait are telling me that those things dont work against condition damage?
Also i thought you said the issue was things being telegraphed?
So what exactly are you complaining about?

Exceptions don't make the rule. Power builds do have more telegraphs. Of course if someone is invis its going to be hard to catch what theyre doing, no matter what build theyre running lol. Condi builds also has more dmg uptime than power. 

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2 hours ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

When gw2 was first being released the general idea behind the combat was that I wouldn't need to watch my UI. Instead I would watch what the other player is doing and play based off that. Condi dmg literally destroys that concept. One of the big reasons why spvp is in the state that it is, imo, is bc of condi dmg. It ruins the amazing combat system that Anet did a fantastic job creating. Which is one of the main reasons I always come back to gw2. 

 

Do you guys think condi dmg is a issue? I personally hate it. It takes not skill and ruins what made gw2 amazing. The combat. At this point, with the amount of sustain and condi, the dodge bar isnt nearly as important as it once was. Theres way more spam and way less skill involved.

 

Maybe I'm completely wrong and condi dmg isn't that bad, but currently its been making me dislike spvp as a whole. When you can get rooted for over 10 seconds and when you take 50k burn dmg in a few seconds bc someone spammed there skills, theres a issue. The combat was based off visuals which is no longer the case. Also, if condi gets removed, there wouldn't be a need for so much sustain.

 

PS: Soft CC condi skills should stay, such as blind and immob. The only issue with immob is when there is a high condi duration. This is purely for spvp. Condi is fine in pve. 

TLDR:Nerf what I don't like, Buff what I do like, everything else can stay the same.

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2 minutes ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

TLDR:Nerf what I don't like, Buff what I do like, everything else can stay the same.

Nope...Where did I say buff anything? If they were to get rid of condi and nerf sustain, I also think that they should  slightly nerf power dmg too.

 

Can you name me a good pvp game that has condi dmg on the lvl of gw2? You'll see soft and hard CC but no heavy condi dmg. Theres a reason for that. 

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13 hours ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

Nope...Where did I say buff anything? If they were to get rid of condi and nerf sustain, I also think that they should  slightly nerf power dmg too.

 

Can you name me a good pvp game that has condi dmg on the lvl of gw2? You'll see soft and hard CC but no heavy condi dmg. Theres a reason for that. 

WoW, Aion (when it ran) FF14 Summoners, Diablo 2 and 3, skyforge, yea even tera sorcs could do tons of dot damage. Dot damage is a thing in every MMO how ever only in GW2 does every class have away to remove them in those games you'd have to have a healer beside you to dispel it or heal you through it.

Sometimes i think people like to make up things for no reason because it makes them feel good i think your one of those people.

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5 hours ago, Genesis.5169 said:

WoW, Aion (when it ran) FF14 Summoners, Diablo 2 and 3, skyforge, yea even tera sorcs could do tons of dot damage. Dot damage is a thing in every MMO how ever only in GW2 does every class have away to remove them in those games you'd have to have a healer beside you to dispel it or heal you through it.

Sometimes i think people like to make up things for no reason because it makes them feel good i think your one of those people.

All those games have kitten pvp. Point proven. Thanks.

 

I think you're just a bad player. You suck at the game so you're perspective is skewed. Get good then talk. Instead of insulting others.  

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12 hours ago, Lacdanon.1483 said:

All classes have access to cleanse and if you are decent you can negate almost all of their damage.

There are even skills that literally turn condis into boons.

Playing with Aussie 300ping makes power classes much harder to deal with than condi classes.

Ping shouldn't be the a factor in balancing the game imo. The output of condi dmg is much more than power. Power has its spike dmg but has more downtime in between the dmg that can be done. I can have 13 stacks of burn  cleanse it and then 3 seconds later ill have another 10 stacks already up from the same individual. It takes much less skill to play a condi than power build. Its very clear. Just look at new players. They can get carried by a condi build. The same wont happen on a power build. 

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1 hour ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

Ping shouldn't be the a factor in balancing the game imo. The output of condi dmg is much more than power. Power has its spike dmg but has more downtime in between the dmg that can be done. I can have 13 stacks of burn  cleanse it and then 3 seconds later ill have another 10 stacks already up from the same individual. It takes much less skill to play a condi than power build. Its very clear. Just look at new players. They can get carried by a condi build. The same wont happen on a power build. 

But can veteran players win over them on power builds?

If you answer yes, your entire point is moot. If you answer no, well maybe you just need a condi build.

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27 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But can veteran players win over them on power builds?

If you answer yes, your entire point is moot. If you answer no, well maybe you just need a condi build.

If they are both vets then the condi build wins. Condi dmg takes responsive gameplay to play against while power requires reactive gameplay. The fact that condi is responsive makes it so that its not your mechanical skills that matters but the actual skills (cleanse) you bring on your tool bar. Reactive gameplay makes it so that you see what is happening and avoid it by reacting in time. 

 

A vet can stand still and beat a new player. That doesn't mean anything. If you take 2 new players, give one condi and give the other a power build. The condi build will win 90+% of the time, if not 100%. 

Edited by Beast Sos.1457
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12 minutes ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

If they are both vets then the condi build wins.

But you just said new players are carried. You distinctly separated who was being carried. If both are veterans and condi still get carried, that become a condradiction. Then condi carries the best too. Veterans use whats effective. That means there cant be veterans running power builds. Its not possible.

I havent played sPvP in a while, is it that far gone now? I mean I'll buy that everyone do run condi but then it was pretty redundant to say new players was being carried since its the only effective meta to play.

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7 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But you just said new players are carried. You distinctly separated who was being carried. If both are veterans and condi still get carried, that become a condradiction. Then condi carries the best too. Veterans use whats effective. That means there cant be veterans running power builds. Its not possible.

I havent played sPvP in a while, is it that far gone now? I mean I'll buy that everyone do run condi but then it was pretty redundant to say new players was being carried since its the only effective meta to play.

 I said look at new players as a example bc thats where its most noticeable. The whole point of this post was that condi is bad for spvp as a whole. 

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I partially agree. Condition damage doesn't match the condition cleanse. You can pretty much spam most conditions as you please but you can't clean conditions fast enough, so unless you are an ele or a engineer spamming barrier you can't do much apart from trying to kill the enemy before he kills you.

Also I don't think looking at the UI is a bad thing.

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8 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I partially agree. Condition damage doesn't match the condition cleanse. You can pretty much spam most conditions as you please but you can't clean conditions fast enough, so unless you are an ele or a engineer spamming barrier you can't do much apart from trying to kill the enemy before he kills you.

Also I don't think looking at the UI is a bad thing.

Defense should never match offense. Players are supposed to die eventually ...

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15 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I partially agree. Condition damage doesn't match the condition cleanse. You can pretty much spam most conditions as you please but you can't clean conditions fast enough, so unless you are an ele or a engineer spamming barrier you can't do much apart from trying to kill the enemy before he kills you.

Also I don't think looking at the UI is a bad thing.

 

Good post!  I think it gets to the core of the matter.

 

I think the core of a good PvP game is always counterplay.  There always need to be something adequate enough to counter something else.  I see this as a common theme in really any discussion on this forum : counterplay for motion/movement, counterplay for stealth/reveal, counterplay for condition/condition removal, counterplay for burst damage/defense.

 

I think if the balance team took that mindset into their discussions, it would help clear up many of the balance issues seen in PvP.

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13 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Defense should never match offense. Players are supposed to die eventually ...

The issue is in this situation defense isn't even close to offense. Unless you are the one abusing conditions while having enough defense (core necro, ele, thief, ranger) to survive your enemy while it dies.

And that's only PvP. Imagine WvW with Trailblazer stats.

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1 hour ago, Telgum.6071 said:

The issue is in this situation defense isn't even close to offense. Unless you are the one abusing conditions while having enough defense (core necro, ele, thief, ranger) to survive your enemy while it dies.

And that's only PvP. Imagine WvW with Trailblazer stats.

The only condi build that is very common in sPvP right now at both competitive as well as ranked lvls is condi core necro. But there are just as much power reapers arround. Overall power builds are still equally as or more prevalent than condi builds in PvP tournaments, ranked PvP and WvW. This alleged "condi meta" does not exist (as usual ...).

And in WvW it is all about cele, zerk and minstrel. Trailblazer is outdated.

Edited by UmbraNoctis.1907
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8 hours ago, Beast Sos.1457 said:

All those games have kitten pvp. Point proven. Thanks.

 

I think you're just a bad player. You suck at the game so you're perspective is skewed. Get good then talk. Instead of insulting others.  

So, first it was there's no tell and unlike power i post power builds you say those don't count.
Then you say you can't LoS conditions, Protip you can but you ignore that anways.
Then you say no other games can Dot damage kill you i post 5.
You say those don't count cause they are bad games in pvp.

For the record if this isn't a case study on what not smart people do idk what is. Now im not saying you are i'm just pointing out what has happened so far.

Edited by Genesis.5169
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