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So… med kit is junk on Mechanist?


Dracomet.3648

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43 minutes ago, Random Wax Orc.7695 said:

Telling people they should abstain from feedback because others, like you, know better is not the purpose of this forum.

No one is telling people to abstain from feedback. You want to give the best feedback? I believe that ... but it's not based on obvious facts that Anet would have already been aware of when they make replaced regular toolbelt with Jade Golem Commands. 

The truth is that toolbelt isn't removed. It's replaced. Also, there is no loss of 'choice' for toolbelt skills, they are just connected to trait choices instead of skillbar choices. The majority of complaints are based on things that aren't true. That's no way to make a good feedback.

Medkit is 'junk' because no F1? That's not feedback ... and that's obviously intended based on how Mechanist is developed. Like somehow Anet didn't notice they replaced toolbelt with Jade Golem commands? Pretty sure they did. Want changes? DO BETTER.

 

 

 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So you think telling Anet they "removed toolbelt" is good feedback? Why? You think they didn't know they did that? You didn't think they anticipated the backlash from some people? 

Sure, give feedback, but make it count. Don't complain about the obvious impacts and think it's a compelling reason for Anet to reconsider the design. 


It's feedback to say that you do not like that they removed toolbelt and how it will impact the gameplay of the profession. 
Sure Anet knows they have removed, they do not know how the community reacts to it; In the end they want a happy playerbase.

Same reason when they were showing untamed and people learnt only hammer had swap skill and no of the other weapons, they went; Please give feedback on how that feels, cause it were something we discussed. 

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7 minutes ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

 


It's feedback to say that you do not like that they removed toolbelt and how it will impact the gameplay of the profession. 
Sure Anet knows they have removed, they do not know how the community reacts to it; In the end they want a happy playerbase.
 

Right, and the REAL measure of how it affects the gameplay is how much people play the spec in various game modes.  Complaining it's bad without even having access to play the spec and pretending Anet isn't aware they replaced Toolbelt with Jade Golem Commands doesn't seem very relevant here.  

There is no argument that this impacts gameplay negatively until people play it. What's more interesting to me is that the (real) complaint that we lost 2 toolbelt skills will likely be massively overshadowed by some other known pet issues if Golem code shares that with existing Ranger Pets. We will see when it gets played. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Right, and that's done by Anet measuring how many people are playing the spec ... not complaining it's bad without even having access to play the spec and pretending Anet isn't aware they replaced Toolbelt with Jade Golem Commands.  

There is no argument that this impacts gameplay negatively until people play it. 


Sorry what? Are you really arguing that player feedback should not be written on the offical forums for the game? Where we know the devs read and follow the conversation the playerbase have?
Because if that's really what you saying, then what are you even doing here on the forums?


I see very little complaining from my fellow engineers, but a lot of well tought out critical discussion about what we already have been shown. Many of us, myself included are gonna play a lot of Mechanist in the beta, even while I don't like it. Because I wanna give even more feedback beside the stuff I already can give.
Whatever it's well designed or good is not a matter about how many play it??

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8 minutes ago, Amadeus.5687 said:


Sorry what? Are you really arguing that player feedback should not be written on the offical forums for the game?

Nothing I said should give you that impression. I'm commenting on the quality of the feedback given. 

Quote

Whatever it's well designed or good is not a matter about how many play it??

So you think 'well designed' is more a measure of the BIASED opinions of unhappy forum posters as opposed to measurements of mechanist being played in the game? That's interesting. I disagree based on how patches notes imply that how much a spec gets played is INDEED how Anet decides to make some class changes. 

As far as Mechanist goes ... seems to me that Anet pretty much nailed the concept they wanted to achieve while maintaining the core theme of the engineer class. Until we can play it, theme adherence is probably the most significant basis for a rational argument anyone can make for changing the spec at this point. Certainly, performance isn't. 

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3 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nothing I said should give you that impression. I'm commenting on the quality of the feedback given. 

 

The edit you made to your post make it more clear what you meant, so I get it.

I disagree with you on your evaluation on the quality of the feedback given.

Toolbelt being removed or replace is just playing with words, in the end we lost aces to all the toolbelt skills that our utility skills are balanced on. 
There is a very real loss of choices; both from the toolbelt ability's lost, but also the way the mechanist trainline work, but also because the Mech command skills a very limited in functionality.
If you compare Mechanist to our two other Elite spec it becomes quite clear how much loss of choice we get, compared to the two other elite specs

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2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Nothing I said should give you that impression. I'm commenting on the quality of the feedback given. 

I didn't vote for you as feedback quality moderator.  Did the Lady of the Lake throw a sword at you or something, poobah?  If you think the feedback is poor then outshine it with better feedback or steelman it, don't critique it without offering anything substantive yourself.  This is the Engineer sub-forum not a Dunning-Kruger forum.

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Just now, Amadeus.5687 said:

 

Toolbelt being removed or replace is just playing with words, in the end we lost aces to all the toolbelt skills that our utility skills are balanced on. 
There is a very real loss of choices; both from the toolbelt ability's lost, but also the way the mechanist trainline work, but also because the Mech command skills a very limited in functionality.
If you compare Mechanist to our two other Elite spec it becomes quite clear how much loss of choice we get, compared to the two other elite specs

That complaint doesn't make sense though because you still got that choice for what access you have for toolbelt skills.

In non-mechanist, you have ONE opportunity to choose a toolbelt skill through the skillbar, In mechanist, you have ONE opportunity to choose a toolbelt skill through traits. 

You choose the 'group' of accessible toolbelt skills by mechanist or not. 

The only loss here is that mechanist only has 3 toolbelt skills and non-mechanist is 5. 

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8 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

So you think 'well designed' is more a measure of the BIASED opinions of unhappy forum posters as opposed to measurements of mechanist being played in the game? That's interesting. I disagree based on how patches notes imply that how much a spec gets played is INDEED how Anet decides to make some class changes.


Can't keep up with your edits.

I'm not sure what you are trying to claim here, because there really ain't a true trend in how Anet balance stuff based on how many play it? I'm sure there is a trend on Anet trying to rework stuff that very few people play, like Scrapper gotten reworked into a quickness support spec. But no one plays turrets and they haven't gotten reworked, so no universal trend there.

They will often be nerf big outliners in like PvP, if a skill hits to much or too little. But River Drake Tail Swipe have been dodging a nerf for a while now, even while that's the most played ranger pet in PvP right now.
Like we could keep going with examples, but it doesn't make a lot of sense.

If something is Well designed is the sum of more then one thing, not just how many people play it or if it's meta or if people hate or love it on the forums. 
 

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13 minutes ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

 

The edit you made to your post make it more clear what you meant, so I get it.

I disagree with you on your evaluation on the quality of the feedback given.

Toolbelt being removed or replace is just playing with words, in the end we lost aces to all the toolbelt skills that our utility skills are balanced on. 
There is a very real loss of choices; both from the toolbelt ability's lost, but also the way the mechanist trainline work, but also because the Mech command skills a very limited in functionality.
If you compare Mechanist to our two other Elite spec it becomes quite clear how much loss of choice we get, compared to the two other elite specs

Not only this, all of your traits are largely dependent on your pet being active and alive on the battlefield. The second you need to recall your pet, you lose all mechanist traits AND the "toolbelt replacement" skills. You become SEVERELY handicapped and by the picture stills, it seems like you will have to wait longer than 10 seconds to resummon your golem (since the recharge is apparently dependent on the golem's remaining health). You basically beccome a class with only two specialization rows which is hilariously awful.

Toolbelt skills don't have this restriction- you not only lose a large percentage of useful utility skills, you also downright lose their "replacements" when your golem is dead or recalled. You don't need to play the spec to know that that's already going to be an issue so I agree 100%.

Edited by KinkyPotato.4219
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Just now, Obtena.7952 said:

That complaint doesn't make sense though because you still got that choice for what access you have for toolbelt skills.

In non-mechanist, you have ONE opportunity to choose a toolbelt skill through the skillbar, In mechanist, you have ONE opportunity to choose a toolbelt skill through traits. 

You choose the 'group' of accessible toolbelt skills by mechanist or not. 

The only loss here is that mechanist only has 3 toolbelt skills and non-mechanist is 5. 

 

I have 9 mech commands to pick from, I have 27 toolbelt to pick from:
My toolbelt skills can give me;
Stun break,
CC
Healing
Condi cleanse
Dmg
and everything in between.

Mech commands have;
CC

dmg
Alacrity.

Furthermore, the issue with how I pick the Mech command is they are linked to the traitline; 
If I wanna do condition dmg with my mech I MUST pick top row 2, because that trait makes my pet scale with my condition dmg and expertise, even when I might have wanted  mid or bot 2 mech skill. That is a lack of choice   

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6 minutes ago, KinkyPotato.4219 said:

Not only this, all of your traits are largely dependent on your pet being active and alive on the battlefield. The second you need to recall your pet, you lose all mechanist traits AND the "toolbelt replacement" skills. You become SEVERELY handicapped and by the picture stills, it seems like you will have to wait longer than 10 seconds to resummon your golem (since the recharge is apparently dependent on the golem's remaining health). You basically beccome a class with only two specialization rows which is hilariously awful.

You don't need to play the spec to know that that's already going to be an issue so I agree 100%.

THIS is the most valid issue so far ... we have experience with how deficient these kinds of modal specs are to play because Berserker also suffers from this (though less so than mechanist does because a handful of it's traits are not Berserker-mode only). 

I'm going to speculate that a Mechanist without a Jade Golem is severely deficient in BOTH design and performance. It remains to be see how significant that is based on playing experience. 

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7 minutes ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

 

I have 9 mech commands to pick from, I have 27 toolbelt to pick from:
My toolbelt skills can give me;
Stun break,
CC
Healing
Condi cleanse
Dmg
and everything in between.

Mech commands have;
CC

dmg
Alacrity.

Furthermore, the issue with how I pick the Mech command is they are linked to the traitline; 
If I wanna do condition dmg with my mech I MUST pick top row 2, because that trait makes my pet scale with my condition dmg and expertise, even when I might have wanted  mid or bot 2 mech skill. That is a lack of choice   

Yup, it's less choice and the payback for that choice reduction is ... Jade Golem access (and that's ALSO a choice players get to make mind you). The choice isn't the issue here. Lots of espec's affect number and focus of choices for players. No reason for Mechanist to be design-constrained because of some 'equivalent choices' argument. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Yup, it's less choice and the payback for that choice reduction is ... Jade Golem. 


Beside the choice reduction I also pay an entire trait tree just to make the Jade Golem function.
Compare it to Holosmith where I keep my toolbelt, get a very powerfull trait tree AND Photon Forge with 5 skills.
Keep in mind I still have no weapon swap and limited weaker weapons, cause that's the Engineer tax.

Heck compare it to the new Untamed; It gives controll over their pets 3 skills + 3 new skills to the pet.
They get a great trait tree to buff themselves and their pet + 10 new weapon skills.
And they pay nothing for it; 0

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9 minutes ago, KinkyPotato.4219 said:

Not only this, all of your traits are largely dependent on your pet being active and alive on the battlefield. The second you need to recall your pet, you lose all mechanist traits AND the "toolbelt replacement" skills. You become SEVERELY handicapped and by the picture stills, it seems like you will have to wait longer than 10 seconds to resummon your golem (since the recharge is apparently dependent on the golem's remaining health). You basically beccome a class with only two specialization rows which is hilariously awful.

You don't need to play the spec to know that that's already going to be an issue so I agree 100%.

The funny thing is that many classes have this issue lol.

Beastmaster Rangers -> Pet dies? 2 Traitlines left.

Virtue Guardians -> Long cooldowns. 2 traitlines left.

Berserkers not in Berserk -> 2 traitlines left. 

Elementalist not in fire -> 2 traitlines left.

You get the idea. This is no different really.

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9 minutes ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

The funny thing is that many classes have this issue lol.

Beastmaster Rangers -> Pet dies? 2 Traitlines left.

Virtue Guardians -> Long cooldowns. 2 traitlines left.

Berserkers not in Berserk -> 2 traitlines left. 

Elementalist not in fire -> 2 traitlines left.

You get the idea. This is no different really.

But this is definitely different.

Beastmaster rangers -> There are a plethora of traits in this line that benefit both you and the pet. Furthermore, you have access to a swap pet mechanic whereas the engineer doesn't. Also, the cooldown for your pet dying is not 100 seconds.

Virtue guardians -> What? No. There are several builds for guardian that don't use Virtues...not speccing into Virtues doesn't make your Virtues useless.

Elementalists and fire -> Not speccing into fire doesn't make the other attunements useless. Not speccing into fire doesn't prevent you from swapping attunements.

So no, I don't get the idea because this is radically different.

Edited by KinkyPotato.4219
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19 minutes ago, Amadeus.5687 said:


Beside the choice reduction I also pay an entire trait tree just to make the Jade Golem function.

Well, yes, that's characteristic of the problem I'm talking about that exists with Berserker and other 'modal' specs; traits are either on or off and don't typically benefit both modes. Mechanist in it's current state appears to be a very significant offender. It remains to be seen if this affects people's adoption of the spec though. 

The fact is that people are complaining about the wrong thing ... because game history shows Anet is very tolerant to these design imbalance's in modal specs. Seems to me the strategy should be to illustrate the deficiency and minimize it's impact. Fortunately for Mechanist, Anet seems to have already taken this into consideration with Golem recall and voluntary dismiss/recall. 

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32 minutes ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

The funny thing is that many classes have this issue lol.

Beastmaster Rangers -> Pet dies? 2 Traitlines left.

Virtue Guardians -> Long cooldowns. 2 traitlines left.

Berserkers not in Berserk -> 2 traitlines left. 

Elementalist not in fire -> 2 traitlines left.

You get the idea. This is no different really.

Exactly ... as much as 'modal' specs feel inbalanced between modes, it still doesn't appear that it changes Anet's desire to use them in the game. In otherwords, it seems that Anet is very tolerant to this inbalance as long as players are tolerant enough to them to adopt those specs for play. As we have seen (on berserker for instance), these imbalances are typically addressed with performance changes if players don't adopt them to preserve the themes of the classes. 

Specifically in this case, it's unlikely we get the traditional toolbelt skills returning when Golem is in recharge, though I would be an advocate of having toolbelt skills available when Golem is in recharge that are fixed to some mechanist-themed skills (for example ... converting your outgoing DPS or incoming healing to Golem CD reductions). Until we get beta access, it's unknown how to proceed with a performance change to address this modal imbalance. 

 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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17 minutes ago, KinkyPotato.4219 said:

But this is definitely different.

Beastmaster rangers -> There are a plethora of traits in this line that benefit both you and the pet. Furthermore, you have access to a swap pet mechanic whereas the engineer doesn't. Also, the cooldown for your pet dying is not 100 seconds.

Virtue guardians -> What? No. There are several builds for guardian that don't use Virtues...not speccing into Virtues doesn't make your Virtues useless.

Elementalists and fire -> Not speccing into fire doesn't make the other attunements useless. Not speccing into fire doesn't prevent you from swapping attunements.

So no, I don't get the idea because this is radically different.

Its actually very similar.

Beastmasters. Take a look at its minors, if the pet dies those all are useless. Same with our golem. But we also have a few traits we can tack on that are used even if the golem is dead. Also, they have said it already, 100 seconds is not final! Our elite signet also brings our mech back.

Virtue guardians. Same as above just not as heavily impacted. When those virtues are used that traitline is practically gone. Doesnt really matter if other builds can go without the traitline its function is to work with virtues, the guardians main mechanic. 

Eles. Speccing into fire and not being in fire attunement makes its traitline useless. Its effects are powerful but most of them are activated when in that attunement.  

Adding in MinionMancers. Kill there pets, while they may hold on to a bit of the carapace bonus, the traitline itself is basically down till they get them all back up.

Mechanist is in a similar position as the rest, whether it is more heavily punished or less punished. A lot of builds and classes give up a traitline when they aren't being actively used. And we still do not know the full potential of our mech to decide if it will last long in combat or not.  

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8 minutes ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

Its actually very similar.

Beastmasters. Take a look at its minors, if the pet dies those all are useless. Same with our golem. But we also have a few traits we can tack on that are used even if the golem is dead. Also, they have said it already, 100 seconds is not final! Our elite signet also brings our mech back.

Virtue guardians. Same as above just not as heavily impacted. When those virtues are used that traitline is practically gone. Doesnt really matter if other builds can go without the traitline its function is to work with virtues, the guardians main mechanic. 

Eles. Speccing into fire and not being in fire attunement makes its traitline useless. Its effects are powerful but most of them are activated when in that attunement.  

Adding in MinionMancers. Kill there pets, while they may hold on to a bit of the carapace bonus, the traitline itself is basically down till they get them all back up.

Mechanist is in a similar position as the rest, whether it is more heavily punished or less punished. A lot of builds and classes give up a traitline when they aren't being actively used. And we still do not know the full potential of our mech to decide if it will last long in combat or not.  

 

Even if it were similar, which it's really not; No other traitline is as hyper focused around just one thing as Mechanist and none come close to how impactful it is.
But even if; It's not just the traitline, it's also the core profession class mechanic that's removed, on top of the traitline and how it's built
 

Edited by Amadeus.5687
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43 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

 

The fact is that people are complaining about the wrong thing ... 


We will just have to disagree here, I feel people very have been discussing and criticizing what we have been shown so far; There is more then one thing wrong in the picture that's Mechanist 

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1 hour ago, iKeostuKen.2738 said:

Its actually very similar.

Beastmasters. Take a look at its minors, if the pet dies those all are useless. Same with our golem. But we also have a few traits we can tack on that are used even if the golem is dead. Also, they have said it already, 100 seconds is not final! Our elite signet also brings our mech back.

Virtue guardians. Same as above just not as heavily impacted. When those virtues are used that traitline is practically gone. Doesnt really matter if other builds can go without the traitline its function is to work with virtues, the guardians main mechanic. 

Eles. Speccing into fire and not being in fire attunement makes its traitline useless. Its effects are powerful but most of them are activated when in that attunement.  

Adding in MinionMancers. Kill there pets, while they may hold on to a bit of the carapace bonus, the traitline itself is basically down till they get them all back up.

Mechanist is in a similar position as the rest, whether it is more heavily punished or less punished. A lot of builds and classes give up a traitline when they aren't being actively used. And we still do not know the full potential of our mech to decide if it will last long in combat or not.  

Beastmasters -> still ignoring that there are two pets that you can have active vs the single pet that the engineer has. Yes, if a pet dies, you lose the pet-specific traits (this still doesn't prevent you from taking traits like Zephyr's Speed, Honed Axes, Two Handed Training, Resounding Timbre) but the cooldown is 60 seconds if a pet dies and you have access to a second pet which is a lot more forgiving. As such, you will almost always have a pet active vs the mechanist who gains a recharge increase when he recalls the pet.

Virtues--> with your example, the same can be said about every single utility trait in the game then. Once you "use" them, their effects are gone. This is a pretty weak argument with Virtues again having multiple traits that don't ONLY buff Virtues.

Eles--> same as Guardian really, the difference here is that Eles don't lose their attunement swap which is a core mechanic. Engineers however do lose their core mechanic which is toolbelt skills. BIG difference here. 

Minionmancers--> Sure minion traits becomes worthless if you kill them but Minions are not the only way to play Death Magic and Necros still have access to Shroud which is their core mechanic. The equivalent comparison here would be the necromancer losing Shroud to gain minions, AND having all death magic traits minion traits.

So as you can see, the mechanist is NOT in a similar position as the rest as it is incredibly punished. 

Edited by KinkyPotato.4219
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48 minutes ago, KinkyPotato.4219 said:

Beastmasters -> still ignoring that there are two pets that you can have active vs the single pet that the engineer has. Yes, if a pet dies, you lose the pet-specific traits (this still doesn't prevent you from taking traits like Zephyr's Speed, Honed Axes, Two Handed Training, Resounding Timbre) but the cooldown is 60 seconds if a pet dies and you have access to a second pet which is a lot more forgiving. As such, you will almost always have a pet active vs the mechanist who gains a recharge increase when he recalls the pet.

Virtues--> with your example, the same can be said about every single utility trait in the game then. Once you "use" them, their effects are gone. This is a pretty weak argument with Virtues again having multiple traits that don't ONLY buff Virtues.

Eles--> same as Guardian really, the difference here is that Eles don't lose their attunement swap which is a core mechanic. Engineers however do lose their core mechanic which is toolbelt skills. BIG difference here. 

Minionmancers--> Sure minion traits becomes worthless if you kill them but Minions are not the only way to play Death Magic and Necros still have access to Shroud which is their core mechanic. The equivalent comparison here would be the necromancer losing Shroud to gain minions, AND having all death magic traits minion traits.

So as you can see, the mechanist is NOT in a similar position as the rest as it is incredibly punished. 

Beastmasters... Still ignoring that our elite skill brings back our mech. We also dont know how durable it actually is but from the stream is it a lot more versatile, has a break bar ontop of inheriting our stats in addition of what it already does have. Ranger pets aren't as durable and as a soulbeast they only have 1 pet. We also have traits that we can take that are still useful if our golem is down and we have skills that swap their focus to us if our golem is not active. Rangers have complete traits and skills that dont work if the pet is dead(command skills). 

Virtues traitline heavily focuses on virtues. Which we are in the same boat, we have traits as a mechanic that still work even if the golem is not active. 

Eles dont lose their attunement swap, but they lose an entire traitline. SImilar to mechanists. We still gain use from some specific traits in our line.

Minionmancers, how else would you play minionmancer without death magic without severely gimping your build? They still gain access to shroud but like the current theme of this post, they basically lose their entire traitline which let me remind you, was what you had a issue with in your post.

So as you can see, the mechanist is in a similar position as the rest as its similarly punished. Reread mech traits and you will see we have some functionality even if our golem is dead. Let me also add that our golems abilities seem to be our toolbelt skills as it was shown that its skills were proccing static discharge. So it may not seem like we dont have a toolbelt at all but infact it could have just been merged with our golem that is doing spectacular passive damage for us to me thats better then just having a toolbelt when our goal should be not letting the golem die in the first place.

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4 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:


We will just have to disagree here, I feel people very have been discussing and criticizing what we have been shown so far; There is more then one thing wrong in the picture that's Mechanist 

I'm not disagreeing that people have been discussing and criticizing what we have been shown so far. My point is that not having access to the regular Engi Toolbelt skills is low value feedback because the Mechanist theme replaces them with Jade Golem Commands that is clearly intended. I mean ... what is the solution to that? Anet just give everyone back the regular toolbelt on TOP of the Jade Golem Commands? That's highly unlikely to change, especially based on a complete LACK of playtime. 

If people want to focus their energies on raising the noise level on Mechanist with this feedback ... that's OK, no one can stop them. I just see little to no value in complaining about decisions made about the class design inline with the concept of the class prior to playing them. 

Edited by Obtena.7952
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