Untamed seems to miss the mark of being squad viable.

[Lazze.9870]

On 10/24/2021 at 6:31 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

Removing boons / CCing people is meaningless when targets have stab and the boon removal priority isn't ignored

That depends entirely on numbers. Soulbeast+spellbreaker combo is already strong as it is right now.

Of course, people won't differentiate e between talking about guilds running organized with 20-25 people and huge zergs made up of randoms, half of which barely knowing why they run what they are running to begin with. Untamed is definetely useable on paper, good guilds with good rangers will utilize them. It doesn't reach the mark for busting into the large zerg meta, joining squads led by public tags, but organized groups can definetely use them. For those kind of groups, my guild included, Untamed is just about the only interseting spec out of all the new ones.

Not being able to re-stealth (not stealth, but re-stealth, granted you're in combat) because of the pet is not always such a big deal.

On 10/24/2021 at 6:31 PM, Infusion.7149 said:

Best cut your losses and run stanceshare soulbeast with sword+axe and greatsword in the interim.

Stanceshare soulbeast isn't a thing, it's just a bonus addition to the immobbeast or  longbow sniper builds.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Astralporing.1957]

On 10/23/2021 at 12:37 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

FWIW, it's the beta, I doubt any of the especs will remain unchanged between now and release.

Based on how the betas for the previous especs went, frankly i would be surprised if any changes at above cosmetic level will happen in-between now and the release.

[HotDelirium.7984]

I'd even go so far to have the pet invulnerable when they are unleashed that way there is some balance when whene use the healing skill and sap their health. If our pets die so quick it makes this elite unviable. Maybe we don't sap as much health though maybe 25% because we use it 4 times and now we have to swap pets.

Edited October 26, 2021 by HotDelirium.7984

[Puck.3697]

On 10/22/2021 at 11:37 PM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

FWIW, it's the beta, I doubt any of the especs will remain unchanged between now and release.

while true, Theres no way your going to make a Pet proffession good in Zergs. Druid was as close as they were gonna make it in a Zerg but it aint great, I dont think theres a Singel change u could make to Untamed without reworking it to make it viable in WvWvW.

Now i think untamed is great.. i think its gonna be a good SPVP Specc and it'll be great in PvE.. bujt yeah WvWvW aint happening

problem isnt so much that untamed specficially isnt a WvWvW specc, the problem is Ranger lacks a WvWvW option outside of the 1v1 builds they can run well, i think its fine that Speccs are built without nessercarily being great in 1 Aspect in the game to bring something really cool the proffession.. but yeah they need to make ranger in general stronger in WvWvW.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[RobinotX.1604]

On 10/23/2021 at 12:37 AM, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

FWIW, it's the beta, I doubt any of the especs will remain unchanged between now and release.

I wish more people would understand the meaning of a BETA. There is so much noise in the "feedback" that I feel rather good ideas are being buried because so many people just yell in the echo chamber.

[Lazze.9870]

1 hour ago, Daddy.8125 said:

while true, Theres no way your going to make a Pet proffession good in Zergs. Druid was as close as they were gonna make it in a Zerg but it aint great, I dont think theres a Singel change u could make to Untamed without reworking it to make it viable in WvWvW.

Now i think untamed is great.. i think its gonna be a good SPVP Specc and it'll be great in PvE.. bujt yeah WvWvW aint happening

problem isnt so much that untamed specficially isnt a WvWvW specc, the problem is Ranger lacks a WvWvW option outside of the 1v1 builds they can run well, i think its fine that Speccs are built without nessercarily being great in 1 Aspect in the game to bring something really cool the proffession.. but yeah they need to make ranger in general stronger in WvWvW.

 

A pet profession is weaker for large scale zerging, that much is obvious. The problem with statement like yours is that there is apparently nothing between those map sized blobs and 1v1s.

For organized guild groups of 15-30 people, Untamed is, on paper, definetely useable and probably very much viable. To say it "ain't happening in WvW" is naive at best. No, it won't challenge the locked FB, Scrapper, Herald Scourge meta for large, open, map-sized squads, none of the new specs will. However, organized guilds with good rangers will definetely utilize Untamed. The hammer and the vine skills are great additions to the already strong lockdown potential both druid and soulbeast have with their immob builds.

I badly wanted this spec to completely petless and really sement a solid large scale WvW spec for ranger, but there is still a lot of potential here.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Puck.3697]

24 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said:

 

A pet profession is weaker for large scale zerging, that much is obvious. The problem with statement like yours is that there is apparently nothing between those map sized blobs and 1v1s.

For organized guild groups of 15-30 people, Untamed is, on paper, definetely useable and probably very much viable. To say it "ain't happening in WvW" is naive at best. No, it won't challenge the locked FB, Scrapper, Herald Scourge meta for large, open, map-sized squads, none of the new specs will. However, organized guilds with good rangers will definetely utilize Untamed. The hammer and the vine skills are great additions to the already strong lockdown potential both druid and soulbeast have with their immob builds.

I badly wanted this spec to completely petless and really sement a solid large scale WvW spec for ranger, but there is still a lot of potential here.

Im aware theres more things in WvWvW then that.. but i ment in the context of the OPs Refferral which is to the much larger scales, its not something im too fussed with

I dont think every proffessino needs to be the best at everything. thats why playing multiple classes in this game is so easy realistically, u cant SPVP playing 1 proffession and climb.. u need to be able to switch.. same for PvE, u wont get into every group with 1 proffession. same applies to WvWvW

[Gorem.8104]

38 minutes ago, RobinotX.1604 said:

I wish more people would understand the meaning of a BETA. There is so much noise in the "feedback" that I feel rather good ideas are being buried because so many people just yell in the echo chamber.

Feedback is feedback regardless if its positive or negative, if anything you always should want negative feedback cause that means you still have room to improve 🙂

We are about to try it out in game, where we will see if our fears are met or not. Right now it looks like the worst E-Spec out of all nine that succeeds at nothing the Ranger could not already do, its kinda pointless if it doesn't add on. Kinda like how Thief specs are dps, dps, and dps. Glad they finally got something non-self related. 

From what we have seen, there is nothing special about Ranger. Hammer having CC just means it will be like Warrior Hammer, doing no damage to any target - making this spec the weakest dps wise spec possible the Ranger has. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by Gorem.8104

[RobinotX.1604]

10 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Feedback is feedback regardless if its positive or negative, if anything you always should want negative feedback cause that means you still have room to improve 🙂

We are about to try it out in game, where we will see if our fears are met or not. Right now it looks like the worst E-Spec out of all nine that succeeds at nothing the Ranger could not already do, its kinda pointless if it doesn't add on. Kinda like how Thief specs are dps, dps, and dps. Glad they finally got something non-self related. 

From what we have seen, there is nothing special about Ranger. Hammer having CC just means it will be like Warrior Hammer, doing no damage to any target - making this spec the weakest dps wise spec possible the Ranger has. 

 

It seems that they wanted to make Untamed to be more of a Bruiser. I see it more as what Scrapper is for Engineer. A better core Ranger. If you want to DPS you go Soulbeast, if you support you go Druid if you go Bruiser you go Untamed. That is how I see it now.

The idea that every Espec has to be better than the other Espec shouldnt be here. Especs stand next to each other and have clear advantages and disadvantages over their other Especs.

 

Anyway, I am not saying feedback is bad. But I feel that some of the yelling I have seen on the forum isn't feedback but feels more like whining. I am not pointing out anyone in this case. But yeah I wonder what we can see as improvements after playing it today!

[Lazze.9870]

41 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I dont think every proffessino needs to be the best at everything. thats why playing multiple classes in this game is so easy realistically, u cant SPVP playing 1 proffession and climb.. u need to be able to switch.. same for PvE, u wont get into every group with 1 proffession. same applies to WvWvW

 

No, it doesn't apply at all. Knowing different professions in PvP is first and foremost about knowing what you're fighting and having the options to swap for a better matchup, and less about the viability of your main.

Ranger (and thief for that matter) being shoved to the side from the entire large scale WvW meta while all the remaining professions have at least one elite spec that puts them among the meta options is not healthy for the game in any way.

Edited October 26, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[nerva.7940]

1 hour ago, RobinotX.1604 said:

some of the yelling I have seen on the forum isn't feedback but feels more like whining

You are being generous. All of the feedback here is basically whining by low tier players who have been on these forums for 8 years. You mostly hear their voices because they post on forums more than actually playing. They haven't even tried the spec. Untamed will be really good. Always room for improvement. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by nerva.7940

[LughLongArm.5460]

Not sure I agree with the OP statement.  
But regardless, each expansion we get like 4 new pets,  It is much cheaper to design a special propose pet that excel in specific scenarios than than to design a complete specialization that is well balanced for all possible scenarios.  This was also my feedback to all the design ideas that suggested to give druid's pets astral form. Much cheaper to give us one pets that is really tanky and good support pet(wisp or something). Same with zerg fights, we need one pet which balanced around zerg fights(perhaps the siege turtle will fill that niche) .

[RobinotX.1604]

1 minute ago, nerva.7940 said:

You are being generous. All of the feedback is basically whining, because they haven't even tried the spec. Untamed will be really good. Always room for improvement. 

 

Haha, yeah I am. I never used the forum really and I see why now. I see potential in every spec as long as it plays fun. I do think that some of the previous specs need some work on their traits but overall I think the idea behind them was fun. Numbers can change.

[HotDelirium.7984]

Just now, RobinotX.1604 said:

 

Haha, yeah I am. I never used the forum really and I see why now. I see potential in every spec as long as it plays fun. I do think that some of the previous specs need some work on their traits but overall I think the idea behind them was fun. Numbers can change.

We "whine" so much in the beginning because hundreds of thousands of eyes taking a look at a spec will outweigh the few devs that have worked on it. Peer review is a powerful thing. Years go by and then they  optimize the elite (or try to) but this doesn't need to be the case. Getting it right the first time does save on dev time over all.

[nerva.7940]

13 minutes ago, RobinotX.1604 said:

 

Haha, yeah I am. I never used the forum really and I see why now. I see potential in every spec as long as it plays fun. I do think that some of the previous specs need some work on their traits but overall I think the idea behind them was fun. Numbers can change.

I've been here a long time - it's the same 3-4 people whinging since the game was released lol. identify them and ignore them. I also know for a fact they're not good. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by nerva.7940

[Gorem.8104]

15 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

We "whine" so much in the beginning because hundreds of thousands of eyes taking a look at a spec will outweigh the few devs that have worked on it. Peer review is a powerful thing. Years go by and then they  optimize the elite (or try to) but this doesn't need to be the case. Getting it right the first time does save on dev time over all.

 

At this point I think its the same person talking to themselves here as they needed someone who agree'd with them to post. Best to ignore these whiners and actually hope for a good spec. 

[wolfyrik.2017]

On 10/26/2021 at 10:09 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

while true, Theres no way your going to make a Pet proffession good in Zergs. Druid was as close as they were gonna make it in a Zerg but it aint great, I dont think theres a Singel change u could make to Untamed without reworking it to make it viable in WvWvW.

Now i think untamed is great.. i think its gonna be a good SPVP Specc and it'll be great in PvE.. bujt yeah WvWvW aint happening

problem isnt so much that untamed specficially isnt a WvWvW specc, the problem is Ranger lacks a WvWvW option outside of the 1v1 builds they can run well, i think its fine that Speccs are built without nessercarily being great in 1 Aspect in the game to bring something really cool the proffession.. but yeah they need to make ranger in general stronger in WvWvW.

In many ways it's another example of how espec weapons should be full character unlocks. Hammer is missing something as is but even as it stands now, it could have advantages on Soulbeast in WvW. Couldn't hurt at the very least.

Edited October 27, 2021 by wolfyrik.2017

[Lazze.9870]

7 minutes ago, wolfyrik.2017 said:

In many ways it's another example of how espec weapons should be full character unlocks. Hammer is missing something as is but even as it stands now, it could have advantages on Soulbeast in WvW. Couldn't hurt at the very least.

Like I said before the beta.

Frankenstein untamed and soulbeast together and do a couple of adjustments, and ranger might have a decent zerg spec for wvw.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Lazze.9870

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

21 hours ago, nerva.7940 said:

You are being generous. All of the feedback here is basically whining by low tier players who have been on these forums for 8 years. You mostly hear their voices because they post on forums more than actually playing. They haven't even tried the spec. Untamed will be really good. Always room for improvement. 

Ya gotta stop repeating what you hear other people say, brah.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

21 hours ago, RobinotX.1604 said:

 

Haha, yeah I am. I never used the forum really and I see why now. I see potential in every spec as long as it plays fun. I do think that some of the previous specs need some work on their traits but overall I think the idea behind them was fun. Numbers can change.

Sure, numbers can change, but like you point out.... They don't.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

23 hours ago, RobinotX.1604 said:

 

It seems that they wanted to make Untamed to be more of a Bruiser. I see it more as what Scrapper is for Engineer. A better core Ranger. If you want to DPS you go Soulbeast, if you support you go Druid if you go Bruiser you go Untamed. That is how I see it now.

The idea that every Espec has to be better than the other Espec shouldnt be here. Especs stand next to each other and have clear advantages and disadvantages over their other Especs.

 

Anyway, I am not saying feedback is bad. But I feel that some of the yelling I have seen on the forum isn't feedback but feels more like whining. I am not pointing out anyone in this case. But yeah I wonder what we can see as improvements after playing it today!

I think the point people are trying to make is that an eSpec should be better at SOMETHING than the core spec.

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

6 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

 

At this point I think its the same person talking to themselves here as they needed someone who agree'd with them to post. Best to ignore these whiners and actually hope for a good spec. 

"Hope" is a pointless gesture that does nothing to improve anything. Constructive criticism or "whining" as you call it, on the other hand is the ONLY way to improve things.

Not bringing up solutions to problems is whining.

[wolfyrik.2017]

1 hour ago, Lazze.9870 said:

Like I said before the beta.

Frankenstein untamed and soulbeast together and do a couple of adjustments, and ranger might have a decent zerg spec for wvw.

And you're absolutely right imo. Here is exactly where I see the problem for ranger. Soulbeast and Untamed are both trying to fix core issues. The basic changes of each should be part of core class already, not especs. If this was the case, the new trait lines would exemplify and enhance what's already there eg Soulbeast would add in buffs/benefits to merging that weren't there before, at the expense of the pets swap. Maybe the core version of merge wouldnt refund stats or would only refund the missing stats to baseline of what has been removed in the damage split. This just makes more sense to me and I think Untamed pretty much proves this.

Druid not included because Druid is just bizarre.

[RobinotX.1604]

4 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

Sure, numbers can change, but like you point out.... They don't.

I was talking about the other Especs from EoD. Cause you get balance patches quite often from what I have seen.

 

4 hours ago, Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:

I think the point people are trying to make is that an eSpec should be better at SOMETHING than the core spec.

Well that is my point. In my opinion Untamed and Scrapper are better versions of their Core Spec.

[Nighthawk.2401]

Being unable to stow your pet when stealthing for GvG/WvW fights now feels really bad, also not being able to keybind the "come to me" and removing the "attack now" command feel bad. It's like the developers who made this never played at a high enough level to need to even think about microing their pets. But in WvW the only way to keep your pets alive is to micromanage their positioning back and forth with these two commands. You never want your pet in melee of the enemy, but you also rarely want it on top of you, both are hot zones where it will die fast, using both of these buttons you can micro your pet to stay somewhere in between (usually off to the side too if your group is moving), so that it won't die so easily. But now both commands are basically gone, the come to me doesn't even function like it used to - the pet re-engages in combat automatically after a couple of seconds, rather than staying by your side when commanded to.

 

Also, no new stunbreaks on any of the six untamed skills? The movement skill looks like it could've been a good fit for a stunbreak, as could have the elite skill. I saw thief didn't get a single stunbreak either, did the design team forget these exist, or do they want to force us to keep using the existing core utility skills to be competitive?

 

Not to mention, for an AoE CC ranger, it seems like there'd be very few niches where this isn't just worse than existing immobilize-spamming ranger builds in WvW instead. Stability not affecting immobilize like it does all of the other CC that untamed uses makes most of these interrupts useless in WvW squad fights. I loved the idea of untamed, but as going-on-two-years immob druid/SB main, this  feels to me like Anet really missed the mark and ranger is going to just continue with it's reputation as the worst class in organized play. I was very looking forwards to a ranger spec the broader community would actually not scoff at having to play alongside in WvW finally... I'll continue trying to justify my weird offmeta builds instead for now :c

Edited October 27, 2021 by Nighthawk.2401