Mesmer rework rumor?

[Veprovina.4876]

3 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

To add to that, instead of making phantasms more powerful since they don't persist anymore, they nerfed them.

Yes, that was a massive headscratcher. Usually they nerf something because something elsse got buffed so "compensation" or whetever this community calls that, but that time, it was straight up double nerf.

[Veprovina.4876]

16 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

I don't play mesmer but it frankly always seems like it needs a rework and then gets nerfed instead. It's been this way for 7 or 8 years where i read the patch notes and just go "kitten that sounds like it sucks". Like I think it was the May 11th patch where they said Chronomancer was overperforming in damage, I went from seeing one or two power chronos a month in fractals to seeing one or two power chronos since May 11th.

My favorite part of the next few patches was when they nerfed mantras.

 

The "blurb" said thusly:

 

"We are so excited that everyone is enjoying Staff mirage so here's a nerf to alacrity applied and there's now even less alacrity and might in WvW".

 

Meanwhile in Engiland:

 

"We are so excited that everyone is enjoying playing Scrapper so here's another source of permanent quickness".

 

Like, delete the class already Anet, stop abusing us. 🙄

[Vidit.7108]

@Veprovina.4876I remember that because they said in the thief patch notes something like "Since Engy has quickness now we've nerfed detonate plasma, that one steal item in some raids, because otherwise that's too much quickness in the game". Like they have some ulterior reasons they don't feel like sharing so they make something up.

[OriOri.8724]

On 10/23/2021 at 2:49 PM, Skyroar.2974 said:

Mesmer was one of the few (or the only?) core classes that got a massive rework.

Do you want yet another rework? Wait in the line. Elementalists, revenants, among others, have been waiting for a long time.

Core mesmer got the rework because it was far and away the class with the worst mechanic and implementation. And its still more or less near the bottom. Just because its already been reworked doesn't mean its perfect and shouldn't be touched again

[zealex.9410]

On 10/24/2021 at 4:15 AM, Veprovina.4876 said:

Probably because a CHRONOmancer is probably the worst source of time based boons in the game.

Gives perma quickness no? Afaiu all quickness stackers give perma to 5 ppl and chrono does that as well.

[Veprovina.4876]

10 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Gives perma quickness no? Afaiu all quickness stackers give perma to 5 ppl and chrono does that as well.

But it can't do Alacrity. Something that was Chrono's elite ability. Then they made it a boon because Mesmer's can't have nice things and then they gave it to everyone else, and everyone who has it can do it better than Chrono. Hell, even Mirage can do it better, but thankfully, Mirage needed that boost so i'm not complaining. 

 

If you need Alacrity in your group, you take Alacren.

 

So between the 2 elites, Chrono lost all its identity, it's not an elite anymore, just Mesmer+, and Mirage lost a core ability that literally everyone has and the entire game is balanced around (dodge).

 

Not to mention countless nerfs without any explanation or compensation while everyone else gets buffed or left alone. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

Just dont touch Mesmer i rather it be left in this state then whatever they are planning to come up with. Just look at the new E-Specs. Mesmers might actually get reworked to oblivion and in a worse and dire state then it is now.

[Jables.4659]

On 10/30/2021 at 9:08 AM, Veprovina.4876 said:

Hell, even Mirage can do it better, but thankfully, Mirage needed that boost

Did it really?  The absurd damage that Staff/Staff initially dealt was always an aberration waiting to be rectified.  As you alluded to, Mirage was never going to over-take Alacregade which pretty much fills every gap in Firebrand's support kit on top of the unique offensive buffs, boon-strip, and CC.  I guess I just don't really see what that change accomplished.  One-Dodge-Mirage is still wanting in competitive modes and Firebrand/Scourge/whatever still puts its DPS to shame in the vast majority of PVE encounters.  

I don't think a Staff/Staff Mirage build that function by spamming dodges and pressing 1 is beneficial to the game, so I'm a little biased.   

[Levetty.1279]

19 hours ago, Jables.4659 said:

The absurd damage that Staff/Staff initially dealt was always an aberration waiting to be rectified.

Damage was fine till they replaced burning due to their strange obsession of confusion being the only condition Mesmer can apply.

 

19 hours ago, Jables.4659 said:

I don't think a Staff/Staff Mirage build that function by spamming dodges and pressing 1 is beneficial to the game, so I'm a little biased.   

Just admit you hate Mesmer having good builds.

[Levetty.1279]

Changing Alacrity to a group buff that they now balance classes around was one of the biggest mistakes they have made in this game. It should have remained a self buff for Chronos only.

[otto.5684]

Highly unlikely that any rework is coming anytime soon. Beside that devs are focused on new elites, condi mesmer had a tiny rework with staff and chaos buff. Chrono had a few reworks in the last 2 years, leading it where it is today (for better or worse). From PvE standpoint, which is what drives majority of the balance, the class performs well. It is not stellar, however, good enough in all PvE scenarios. 
 

I think chrono need some adjustments. Better access to slow would really improve its reliability. Some utilities could use a buff. 

[Jables.4659]

14 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Just admit you hate Mesmer having good builds.

I want Mesmer to have good builds, but not so badly that anything will do. 

[Leonidrex.5649]

On 10/25/2021 at 4:53 PM, OriOri.8724 said:

Core mesmer got the rework because it was far and away the class with the worst mechanic and implementation. And its still more or less near the bottom. Just because its already been reworked doesn't mean its perfect and shouldn't be touched again

IMO core mesmer mechanics are good, the class in itself is just bad all around and lacks sustained damage, chrono and mirage being strong keep core being dead, how can you make phantasms deal any good damage if chrono can quadruple them?
I wish they would nerf ambushes and chronophantasma, and in return buffed all mesmer skills baseline, core could be a viable power dps.
All core elites being useless doesnt help either 😕

[Leonidrex.5649]

15 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Damage was fine till they replaced burning due to their strange obsession of confusion being the only condition Mesmer can apply.

 

Just admit you hate Mesmer having good builds.

as a mesmer main I agree with him, if they wanted condi mirage to give alacrity the least they could do is put it into 1 utility skill, and into F2 shatter, so the gameplay revolves around actively shattering and using mirage skills, and frees up mesmer to run any alacrity set. Or even better, make a trait that gives alacrity to mirage and allies when he does an ambush attac ( works with all ambushes not just staff ), works only once, to gain this buff again you have to swap weapons.
Puff, now you can suddenly make an axe dps mirage, or you can run focus for pulling mobs, or pistol for better dps and breakbar, or torch for aoe damage.
But what we got is brainless passive dodge + 1 spam.

[Puck.3697]

22 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Just admit you hate Mesmer having good builds.

 

what sorta argument is this xD. there are doomsayers saying this about every proffessioni n the game.

Mesmer has good builds, not in every enviroment. it sorely lacks in WvWvW and Fractals Realistically. Somehow these forums beleive all 9 proffessions are worse then each other and the Devs Hate every single one of them lol.

[Levetty.1279]

4 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Mesmer has good builds

And alacmirage is one of them but for some reason it generates more hate and calls for nerfs then Firebrand and Renegade and Scourge which are far stronger.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Levetty.1279

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

And alacmirage is one of them but for some reason it generates more hate and calls for nerfs then Firebrand and Renegade and Scourge which are far stronger.

Alacmirage got hate because it was a boring build that induced carpel tunnel. It worked by cutting 90% of mesmers abilities to maximise DPS. No specc should be working like this. 

Alacrity shoulda been done better. Also alacmirage didn't even fix the core problems of mesmer. 

It introduced another raid build. Something we didn't need. We need a fractal / WvWvW / teamfighter choice. The thing virtuoso was susposed to be! 

We have tons of raid builds. We currently

Aren't great in spvp because the only role mesmer can do is outshined by thief. 

Aren't great in fractals because clones dissapear when stuff happens also buggy AIs and more. 

Aren't great in WvWvW cause clones get aoed to death continously so we lose all our shatter damage. 

We don't need raid builds we got plenty. The games shifting AWAY from raiding they effectively have announced the next expansion has no raids their trying strikes and changing up its format to fit as a end game. 

Which means we builds that work outside of a raid comp not just inside one. 

We need a elite or a rework or whatever that allows mesmers to have more then one singular playstyle so we can expand and fulfill more roles in more types of content. Not another build with identical playstyles and strong in the content we are already strong in 

We need something like what spectre is doing for thief. Offering a potiental teamfight based choice which will expand the roles it fills. Virtuoso currently just doubles down on all the problems core mesmer has and somehow managed to be weaker. 

And before you say "alac build made us good in fractals" no it didn't. It ment if a group got bored enough of waiting for alacren they could put up with you. It's still tied to the core issues to why mesmer isn't amazing in them to begin with. 

Mesmers currently a great raid choice. But is below meta in every other format, which should have been the focus. Not handing us more of the same 

If we are gonna go down the route of missed opportunities theres hundreds of far better opportunities then alacmirage 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Dadnir.5038]

Well... When something is "reworked" in this game the result is never great (and when it is, it end up being nerfed to the ground). Thus it's better to not hope for a rework. That said there is one case of rework where the net gain after rework was below zero yet it ended up making the thing reworked popular: Death magic (Yep the only unpopular traitline that's been effectively nerfed through a rework yet became popular enough after that to lead to some more nerfs).

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Well... When something is "reworked" in this game the result is never great (and when it is, it end up being nerfed to the ground). Thus it's better to not hope for a rework. That said there is one case of rework where the net gain after rework was below zero yet it ended up making the thing reworked popular: Death magic (Yep the only unpopular traitline that's been effectively nerfed through a rework yet became popular enough after that to lead to some more nerfs).

Tbh I don't think mesmer needs a rework. Core mesmers is in as rough shape as most of them realistically. 

I think mesmers primary issue is the fact every elite is another iteration of core instead of being completely new. 

They also prolly need to roll more of the shatter traits into the abilities and then remake the traits to reduce how tied to shatters the proffession is. 

Then they can change up mesmer so the elites gameplay is completely different allowing the specc access to different strengths. 

Maybe they will get virtuoso working and rework it enough to be a good option you never know, I think mesmers dying for a specc that is not tied to clones realistically. 

I would argue scrappers gotten alot more popular after its reworks though that was a successful rework overall. But yeah many reworks rarely turn out for the better. 

The proffessions are prolly heading towards when a expansion prolly needs to update core weapons + traits instead of a new elite tho the work load to make it work and update the elites to work with the new stuff would be questionable though 

We saw catalyst in the dev talks. And it's has taken reworks. U can see by its mechanic and more they've changed quite abit of it. 

Catalyst has had less time with the feedback then virtuoso. 

Imho that's a good sign to see. As it shows reworks of certain mechanics and things are not off the table ATM. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Dadnir.5038]

40 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Tbh I don't think mesmer needs a rework. Core mesmers is in as rough shape as most of them realistically. 

I think mesmers primary issue is the fact every elite is another iteration of core instead of being completely new. 

They also prolly need to roll more of the shatter traits into the abilities and then remake the traits to reduce how tied to shatters the proffession is. 

Then they can change up mesmer so the elites gameplay is completely different allowing the specc access to different strengths. 

Maybe they will get virtuoso working and rework it enough to be a good option you never know, I think mesmers dying for a specc that is not tied to clones realistically. 

I would argue scrappers gotten alot more popular after its reworks though that was a successful rework overall. But yeah many reworks rarely turn out for the better. 

The proffessions are prolly heading towards when a expansion prolly needs to update core weapons + traits instead of a new elite tho the work load to make it work and update the elites to work with the new stuff would be questionable though 

We saw catalyst in the dev talks. And it's has taken reworks. U can see by its mechanic and more they've changed quite abit of it. 

Catalyst has had less time with the feedback then virtuoso. 

Imho that's a good sign to see. As it shows reworks of certain mechanics and things are not off the table ATM. 

But all you suggest would be qualified as a "rework" by the devs.

[Puck.3697]

34 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

But all you suggest would be qualified as a "rework" by the devs.

Im saying to revert the damage to the prior speccs would require one. Which is why I ended on hopefully virt just being solid in its final form realistically. 

It's not the first time we have seen a elite just fix all the problems and just be the go to. Look at daredevil for example. 

If virtuoso can do what daredevil did the prior issues become ignorable effectively. 

[Dadnir.5038]

55 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Im saying to revert the damage to the prior speccs would require one. Which is why I ended on hopefully virt just being solid in its final form realistically. 

It's not the first time we have seen a elite just fix all the problems and just be the go to. Look at daredevil for example. 

If virtuoso can do what daredevil did the prior issues become ignorable effectively. 

The thing is that if you just look at damage, the mesmer as a whole is solid. If you look at damage while actually fighting, the mesmer is a lot less solid. Virtuoso in it's design is far from correcting this fact. A cloneless mesmer is valuable in an encounter against a foe that phase (which is mainly PvE stuff and WvW zerg), in small scale the value drop compared to a mesmer that do have clone.

I wouldn't say that daredevil fixed any issue. It had nice QoL compared to thief at it's release but that's all. Unfortunately, the QoL that virtuoso bring don't balance the heavy restraints put on it's skills which basically nullify them. The devs would have to remove the bladesong cast time, make the bladesong unblockable (or at least non-projectile), make the core "illusions" traits actually work with "blades" and up a bit the damage to achieve the result you expect (even with all that there would still be drawbacks to the spec anyway). It's definitely not gonna happen.

[Puck.3697]

14 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

The thing is that if you just look at damage, the mesmer as a whole is solid. If you look at damage while actually fighting, the mesmer is a lot less solid. Virtuoso in it's design is far from correcting this fact. A cloneless mesmer is valuable in an encounter against a foe that phase (which is mainly PvE stuff and WvW zerg), in small scale the value drop compared to a mesmer that do have clone.

I wouldn't say that daredevil fixed any issue. It had nice QoL compared to thief at it's release but that's all. Unfortunately, the QoL that virtuoso bring don't balance the heavy restraints put on it's skills which basically nullify them. The devs would have to remove the bladesong cast time, make the bladesong unblockable (or at least non-projectile), make the core "illusions" traits actually work with "blades" and up a bit the damage to achieve the result you expect (even with all that there would still be drawbacks to the spec anyway). It's definitely not gonna happen.

But here's the thing. 

Making bladesongs unblockable is not a hard thing to do. And I doubt they will leave it so easily countered to begin with. Elites are like half the selling factor of a expansion. 

The blades working with the traits was ment to happen. It was bugged and did not work, just like warriors had several bugs when it came to the functionality. However during both of the show cases he stated that the traits ARE suspose to convert to the new mechanic and work along side if. 

We saw the catalyst in the recent dev talk. It had mechanical changes made to it based on the critism of its mechanic. We litterally saw it as they used the catalyst to show case stuff in the new expansion. 

If virtuosos had longer with the feedback then catalyst and they've already gotten that far with catalyst why are we writing these changes off? 

Remove cast times why? Because of PoF / HoT speccs? All 9 proffessions had cast times slower animations and were weaker then current elites. This would indicate this designs more likely to spread to all the current ones. 

It'd appear they're reversing the power creep. There's no reason to remove it's cast times if they intend to bring down current speccs to the same level. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Dadnir.5038]

12 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

We saw the catalyst in the recent dev talk. It had mechanical changes made to it based on the critism of its mechanic. We litterally saw it as they used the catalyst to show case stuff in the new expansion.

If what they showed on catalyst is an example of the way they "fix" thing, then virtuoso is doomed.

12 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

It'd appear they're reversing the power creep. There's no reason to remove it's cast times if they intend to bring down current speccs to the same level. 

What powercreep, as far as I know mesmer never had cast time on it's shatter skills. Why would you call "removing cast time" on what are basically shatters on virtuoso a powercreep?

 

It's nice that you trust the devs will improve things, but personally I do not. There are way more example of them making things worse than there is of them "improving" things.

Virtuoso meant to work with core trait? Come on, there are even traits on virtuoso that are copy of core traits affecting illusion but for blades, it wasn't "meant to be", they didn't think about it at all. Bladesong unblockable? Come on, we all know that the sPvP subforum would riot if it was the case. The only "hope" would be for bladesong to be instant and even that is uncertain as they tend to cling to the shiny animations they put onto the charater more than QoL.

[Puck.3697]

4 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

what they showed on catalyst is an example of the way they "fix" thing, then virtuoso is doomed

It wasn't susposed to showcase. But we got a glimpse to changes happening. And what do you mean doomed? We saw it because they were showcasing something else on the beta. 

Fixed attunements on the orbs + faster usage of it was things asked for in the feedback?? Why would them acting on feedback be a doomed idea? 

It seems people want to just assume it's doomed regardless of what actually happens. 

I understand you not trusting it. But tbh I think virts concept is rly cool illusionary blades and things have always been at the top of the chain fantasy wise to me personally in games. So I am hopeful they get it right because conceptually i think its amazing. Just the execution and polish needs to be alot better. 

These new elites do seem to lack flexibility. But hopefully 4th beta atleast shows them going in the right direction. 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Daddy.8125