Why is roaming dead? what happened?

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

On 11/3/2021 at 3:04 PM, Kolache.3964 said:

Thieves killed it for me.  For some reason I don't seem to mind quite as much if someone has more mobility than me.  I can deal with them mitigating more damage than me.  I can deal with them bursting harder than me.  I generally expect to lose when out-numbered.

 

...but GW2's take on thief and stealth just drove me nuts.  I remember getting excited when stealth traps were being introduced.. and 'sic em' was being introduced... and every time some effective counter was introduced it felt like anet had to make a "counter counter" for thieves.  The goal-post moving "every time they have to disengage you effectively win" argument has always sounded ridiculous to me.

 

I really loved WvWvW but I just couldn't help but feel that every other class matchup felt like checkers and fighting thieves felt like chess where you really just had to tune into your extensive thief knowledge and ESP to predict every moment for a chance to force a disengagement... it just blows my mind that, regardless of whether or not someone thinks this would be good design, that anyone would think this would be a fun design.

 

I still visit the forums periodically just hoping that something meaningful will change for the thief/stealth/counter design.  Hey blizzard released classic after so many years, stranger things have happened I suppose.

 

I would even play again if I could have a class/spec that was a hard counter to thieves/stealth (actually killing them, not just encouraging them to ignore me because my class/spec was more tedious to kill than others), even if that class/spec was a free kill for every other class/spec in the game.

 

I can only speak for myself but such is my hate for GW2 thieves and stealth.

You don't actually hate thieves by the sounds of it, you hate stealth. Personally I wouldn't mind if they removed stealth entirely and redesigned thief around dual swords, evades, mobility and blocks, but that has and always be a pipe dream since ANet created Revenant using ideas from the "what do you want to see in the new thief elite spec" forum post the devs started for HoT. Fact is the devs want thief to play the way it does, and while I am sorry that you couldn't find enjoyment in WvW it is just as simple as that. I hope you enjoy whatever you ended up playing instead more. 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Jugglemonkey.8741
Clarity

[Burial.1958]

 

 

33 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

5 of you had nothing like Basilik Venom and pulls? I hope they got that camp. 

 The Average Gw 2 Player is bad and think he can do the whole Game with 1 Build and 1 Gear setup and deal with all classes and their Elite specs. So then everything what they can't kill fast, is OP. What this mesmer did u can do with all classes except maybe Necro and Guardian ( But they get their run away specs with the addon).  But it is easier to cry on the forums then to learn how these classes and builds work.  There are certain builds, which are a bit overtuned but nothing broke.  When i see such a Usain Bolt my strategy is to walk away and ignore him.  I mean 5 Peoples chasing 1 Mesmer. Lol 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Grebcol.5984

[TheGrimm.5624]

1 hour ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

So last night, 5 of us roamers ran to our T3 north camp to defend, and found a single mesmer.  It took us about 10 minutes of chasing it across the map to finally kill it, and it wasn't just running away the whole time, it would attack and fade, attack and fade, throwing out clones and putting up shields all along the way.  Afterwards, one of our group commented, "Chasing mesmers and thieves is my favorite minigame in WvW".  If two classes can create an entire game within a game, then clearly there is a disturbance in the Force...😉

 

21 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

5 of you had nothing like Basilik Venom and pulls? I hope they got that camp. 

 

Now granted these are counter to the OPs statement that roaming is dead. 

 

That said, isn't this more of one player specing into a build and others set for general purpose roles? As Kash gave an example a roamer thief that is spec'd into a catch them build is spec'd to fight a hit and fade build. A Longbow Soulbeast/Core catch them Ranger build is a strong counter as well to these builds. Same as a torment condi Rev and condi stun Berserker even if the Berserker is just full melee. Engi's also have a number of builds to counter hit and fade. I am not a fan of the hit and fade fights either, but that's why I builds some builds to counter them. When you roam you should plan on the role you are looking to fill and then make sure you also play the roles you are looking to hunt. All of this is also outside of the fact that a player that knows the strengths and weakness of their own build might shine as well. And if you ended up catching them then that says they also didn't know when to just get out so they paid the price of a free ticket back in the end. So it all worked out.

 

Have some of all classes and builds, and no I am not seeing one roamer build that is the be all end all for roaming right now, and no wouldn't pin a reduction in roaming to a given class. I would actually say to me have been seeing less thieves and mez roamers out there.  But your mileage will vary.

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

So last night, 5 of us roamers ran to our T3 north camp to defend, and found a single mesmer.  It took us about 10 minutes of chasing it across the map to finally kill it, and it wasn't just running away the whole time, it would attack and fade, attack and fade, throwing out clones and putting up shields all along the way.  Afterwards, one of our group commented, "Chasing mesmers and thieves is my favorite minigame in WvW".  If two classes can create an entire game within a game, then clearly there is a disturbance in the Force...😉

You guys were missing cleave. 5 people should be able to clear out anything they drop.

Also you can retreat too. Don't let them bait you into chasing them so they just send  clones back into you.

I mean, yes, if you only have single target on your build it sucks, but @ N camp the portal is literally just a few inches away so it's easy to change weapons/builds.

If you really want them gone, just build a golem and some ballistas in North Camp

Also, if you really did chase them across the map, that really explains why they run builds like that. 😉

Edited November 5, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[caveman.5840]

if you want zergs to split up you should give huge rewards to guilds and players who hold one castle and one castle only and protect it life and death. make a single castle something a guild is proud to own as if it was a guild hall 

 

[ASP.8093]

8 hours ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

So last night, 5 of us roamers ran to our T3 north camp to defend, and found a single mesmer.  It took us about 10 minutes of chasing it across the map to finally kill it, and it wasn't just running away the whole time, it would attack and fade, attack and fade, throwing out clones and putting up shields all along the way.  Afterwards, one of our group commented, "Chasing mesmers and thieves is my favorite minigame in WvW".  If two classes can create an entire game within a game, then clearly there is a disturbance in the Force...😉

What classes are you trying to roam on exactly.

[bigo.9037]

On 11/4/2021 at 12:13 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

Thats called adapting to the situation. 

People do the same with condi vs power due to condi exponentially decreasing in efficiency the more enemies there are above 1v1.

Guess that means condi is dead too.

I don’t actually think roaming is dead I just wanted to point out problems. 
 

No DS event gives roamer builds more leverage at least, coordinated single target kills actually mean something now.

[kash.9213]

3 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

I don’t actually think roaming is dead I just wanted to point out problems. 
 

No DS event gives roamer builds more leverage at least, coordinated single target kills actually mean something now.

That's a fair point, but it also changes squad approach. It's a little harder to read them when they pack so much into the one shots. I have to figure out who the fish are on my side and try to drop Snipers Cover or intercept early on. On the plus side, squads get so zeroed in trying to catch bodies that they don't pay as much attention to the floaters around them trying to catch theirs. 

[Trepidation Lost.3469]

Because it’s not beneficial.

it’s fun.

but most people seem to prefer to farm pips and bags

 

one fix for this would be to have reduced rewards per person involved.

 

i.e 5 people cap somthing= 120% rewards

10 people= 100%
15=80%
20=50%
etc…

 

this would promote healthier gameplay and discourage brainless Zerg vs Zerging and exp trains.

If you want that you may as well be doing PVE.

[Jables.4659]

Roaming isn't dead, but the introduction of healers to GW2 had a really bad impact on it.  GW2 launched with the promise that it would forgo the holy trinity, but a small (and vocal) portion of the player-base begged for WoW-like raid content with "more defined" player roles.  For some reason, Anet delivered to the detriment of their pvp modes.  It started with Druid and Tempest back in HoT, but things weren't that bad.  PoF made it far worse with the introduction of Firebrand and Scourge.  Things really went to kitten when they attempted to counter the power creep and gutted everyone's damage. 

Small groups started roaming with healers, which provides a significant advantage against groups without them.  This is exacerbated when the group that has a healer outnumbers the other group or solo roamer.

Its probably too late to fix the issue now, but Centaur Revenant is a support spec done correctly imo.  It doesn't just spew out boons and heals to all allies that are even remotely close to them.  Rather, it actually needs to pay attention and react to what is happening in the fight.  The cherry on top is that it can be hard focused by the enemy team and relies on the allies protecting it to stay alive. 

[Sylvyn.4750]

On 11/5/2021 at 5:59 PM, ASP.8093 said:

What classes are you trying to roam on exactly.

At the time I was on my Cele Renegade with shortbow, mace/axe with Shiro/Jalis...kind of a jack of all trades, master of none.  Can't recall what the other random roamers were running...we weren't grouped.

[Legensy.5804]

Too big risks for 1v1 encounters - its 50/50 all-in.If you lose - u go spawn,no participation,no exp,no loot,nothing.Your opponent can humiliate using emotes,finishers,jumping,bluprint planting.And its 100% your fault - not so many ppl can take responsibility for their mistakes.Look how many  players in 1v1 competitive games.

 

Its just logically much more rewarding to flip sentries and camps or Zerging - less mental pressure,less risks.You dont need plus-ulta prepared meta build (!18 infusions) and prefight food/build swaping.Any food and build will work.

 

Roaming problem is more of mental/personal issue rather than bad game design.

[Jables.4659]

20 hours ago, Legensy.5804 said:

Too big risks for 1v1 encounters - its 50/50 all-in.If you lose - u go spawn,no participation,no exp,no loot,nothing.Your opponent can humiliate using emotes,finishers,jumping,bluprint planting.And its 100% your fault - not so many ppl can take responsibility for their mistakes.

I've never understood this mentality.  To me, it isn't worth fighting when you know you're going to win by default. Why would anyone care if someone throws siege or jumps on your corpse?  Taking outnumbered fights is one of the best ways to improve as a player and there is nothing more satisfying in this game than kitten stomping 3+ players by yourself. 

[retsuya.4708]

just count it as a win whenever a thief stealth away out of combat.

[Dawdler.8521]

54 minutes ago, retsuya.4708 said:

just count it as a win whenever a thief stealth away out of combat.

That makes it at least 50 wins a fight to feel good about.

[Shinjiko.1352]

The other day me and my bf went roaming/ havok. We attacked random towers and camps. Every time there were defenders, especially in the towers they would not come out to stop us when it would have been 2 v 2 . Just us 2. Then you see them pause on the wall (you can almost hear their typing) and soon enough a trickle of 2-3+ more players comes along and then they jump out and beeline for us.

Other times if it was just 1 person at a camp they'd feign friendship and then another person would come along, still friendly guys, a 3rd, we're all chums still. Then the 4th comes along and suddenly "courage"/ bloodlust like you've never seen. To be fair trying to make friends and not murder  the one guy on sight falls on us, but it's just to highlight a common theme that happens.

Nobody wants to fight in general even in equal numbers. Simple as. People will never engage unless they significantly outnumber you and can guarantee a win.  I don't blame people for this mindset as it's natural I guess. But it does get a bit boring sometimes.

[Xenesis.6389]

9 hours ago, Shinjiko.1352 said:

The other day me and my bf went roaming/ havok. We attacked random towers and camps. Every time there were defenders, especially in the towers they would not come out to stop us when it would have been 2 v 2 . Just us 2. Then you see them pause on the wall (you can almost hear their typing) and soon enough a trickle of 2-3+ more players comes along and then they jump out and beeline for us.

Other times if it was just 1 person at a camp they'd feign friendship and then another person would come along, still friendly guys, a 3rd, we're all chums still. Then the 4th comes along and suddenly "courage"/ bloodlust like you've never seen. To be fair trying to make friends and not murder  the one guy on sight falls on us, but it's just to highlight a common theme that happens.

Nobody wants to fight in general even in equal numbers. Simple as. People will never engage unless they significantly outnumber you and can guarantee a win.  I don't blame people for this mindset as it's natural I guess. But it does get a bit boring sometimes.

What classes were you both playing in this scenario?

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

What classes were you both playing in this scenario?

The most common scenarios regardless of this particular one is probably two stealth gankers or meta support+dps combo that has been winning every fight when even numbered and afterwards go "wHy iS RoAmiNG DeAd?!?!?" when the enemy bring more to beat them.

[Clownmug.8357]

22 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

The most common scenarios regardless of this particular one is probably two stealth gankers or meta support+dps combo that has been winning every fight when even numbered and afterwards go "wHy iS RoAmiNG DeAd?!?!?" when the enemy bring more to beat them.

 

Those are the worst case scenarios. But yeah, the even numbered fights are basically back to back 2v1s when it's coordinated people vs randos.

[GoldenPants.1870]

On 10/25/2021 at 8:16 PM, ollbirtan.2915 said:

Weaver/tempest if they are playing on the bunkerish cele side, have very low chase potential.

Tempest usually have more since they tend to run d/d, They have the fire 3, earth 3, air…4 ? i think, Lightning flash, weavers(sword) have air 2, and.. I guess technically water 2 and fire 2 but they are either slow/short range.

[ollbirtan.2915]

24 minutes ago, GoldenPants.1870 said:

Tempest usually have more since they tend to run d/d, They have the fire 3, earth 3, air…4 ? i think, Lightning flash, weavers(sword) have air 2, and.. I guess technically water 2 and fire 2 but they are either slow/short range.

I run D/D weaver - and the only chase/disengage "bonus" you get for playing D/D vs D/F is "Ride the lightning". If you are running D/D on tempest/core or weaver you still get the same amount of "mobility" skills - Earth 3, Fire 3. You also get Steam Surge and Mud Slide on weaver, but that's not much of a mobility and you have to cycle through your attunements first to get to these skills. My point stands - any semi competent thief/war/ranger/holo etc will have no problem just disengaging and running away if they are losing a 1v1 with you.  

[HitmanHaydon.1053]

Everything is just bad atm in wvw, not just roaming.

Nobody wants to defend or have interseting fights, just hit doors.

Bloody awful, needs some serious attention right now.

[Shinjiko.1352]

11 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

What classes were you both playing in this scenario?

We both main engi. He's been trying out holo lately and I play scrapper mostly, not a support one mind you. I will sometimes go holo with him just depends on the mood.

Not that you can tell by looking how skillful someone is, but my bf is rather average at best as he's newer to pvp and mostly pve's. But he's been getting better.

Not pretending to be some elite btw with my previous post. We're pretty chaotic/ subpar at fighting if I do say so myself as he has a tendency to just run away from me to chase a kill and can get picked off. It's more just boring having similar scenarios happen all the time and have nobody even attempt anything unless it's a gauranteed win, just to make it a bit more fun.

[Xenesis.6389]

On 11/13/2021 at 9:30 AM, HitmanHaydon.1053 said:

Everything is just bad atm in wvw, not just roaming.

Nobody wants to defend or have interseting fights, just hit doors.

Bloody awful, needs some serious attention right now.

 

What do you mean? every night I see 80 man zerg going around looking for fights!

It's pretty cool seeing two enemy boon squads holding hands sitting in a keep waiting for the next challenger. Their voice chat is probably filled with laughter with them making fun of their enemies too scared to fight them.

 

Interesting fights, bwahahaha, these guilds don't want a challenge these days just easy loot.

You either die a fighter, or play long enough to see yourself become the blobber.

[kash.9213]

How interesting do people expect fights can get in WvW as it is right now? 

There's no supply chain to fight over since people don't think about supply rate because no one cares if structures go down anymore. I'd defend a Yak and a tower from start to finish for awhile if I got like a choice of level 80 food or something (whatever's comparable to crafting effort) and then a small selection of random supplies to donate to low levels outside of WvW or something at each safe gate entry or if my guild got something out of it.

There's no perpetual battlegrounds or lanes for lack of anything to do on the majority of each map with an ebb and flow. By the time everyone knows where all the action is converging on, it's pretty much over or winding down. One side will dominate pretty fast or all sides will decide it's not worth crashing into each other and try to lure each other into their territory buffs. Since nothing we do benefits a server anymore, how are we supposed to care about points? My guild isn't fighting for access to a good hunting spot or anything useful or interesting, so we might as well read the maps and chase fights while there's still time. Losing a t3 tower isn't even a factor to me as an individual or my guild anymore. Losing out on actual gain for myself and my people outside of WvW would add something to the need to defend. Likewise I'd want to deny the other sides that power of resource.

No one else in the game knows about or cares or benefits from what we do in WvW, so again, losing structures doesn't matter to me because when I think about points I draw a blank because I don't care. The rest of the game needs to feel WvW more and WvW needs to be enriched by the new contents aesthetics and sounds. Roaming will be effected as long as no one has a reason to roam except to run into someone else doing the same thing for basically a duel or even travel somewhere on these largely unused maps except to catch up to all the hidden tags who finally found a three way fight. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by kash.9213