Specter Feedback Thread

[Tails.9372]

1 minute ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

RV?

Rot Wallow Venom

[Asum.4960]

35 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

I am wondering if the Specter have much in dps potential, or will forever be relegated to healbotting?

It's higher than Condi DD, so I'm guessing it will bench around ~42-46k DPS, with the advantage of not needing a completely static target and some ranged DPS.

[LucianDK.8615]

2 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

It's higher than Condi DD, so I'm guessing it will bench around ~42-46k DPS, with the advantage of not needing a completely static target and some ranged DPS.

42k+ ?!  That sounds crazy high.  Up there with Harbinger, whom I expect to get nerfbatted despite the health punishment mechanic.

[Asum.4960]

15 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

42k+ ?!  That sounds crazy high.  Up there with Harbinger, whom I expect to get nerfbatted despite the health punishment mechanic.

Condi DD is 33k without allies to share Venoms to, and 41k with allies. The highest I got on Specter was 37k without allies, and that gets extra value from allies with Rot Wallows on top of Spider and Skale, and that was me playing terribly since I'm used to Action Cam, which doesn't work with Specter currently. 

 

Add to that the potential of allied targeting sprinkled in for Rot Wallows, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if someone manages to break 50k on Specter with allies. 40k is a safe bet though. 

 

And yea, this thing smokes Harbinger in a pipe as it also gets a Shroud for survivability or which you can nuke every couple seconds for a full party heal and barrier (and with that Rot Wallows) as part of your DPS rota with Consume Shadows.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Tails.9372]

9 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

42k+ ?!  That sounds crazy high.

As I said this is in ideal conditions you'll only find fulfilled in situations where at least 3 people actually brother to stack up. For anything else the dps won't even be nearly as high which is an issue none of the other DPS oriented builds have to deal with.

[Asum.4960]

2 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

As I said this is in ideal conditions you'll only find fulfilled in situations where at least 3 people actually brother to stack up. For anything else the dps won't even be nearly as high which is an issue none of the other DPS oriented builds have to deal with.

If you are playing with groups where players are so far apart that they are not within Venom range, I think reaching benchmark numbers is the least of your concerns.

[Tails.9372]

6 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

If you are playing with groups where players are so far apart that they are not within Venom range, I think reaching benchmark numbers is the least of your concerns.

Like it or not but this is the average A-Net has to consider when designing these specs. Releasing e-specs which are only good in high level play is terrible game design.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Zaxares.5419]

Specter is... very interesting, I must admit. I don't play Thief that often, but the ability to target both allies and enemies with your attacks is something no other class can do. Still, its single target limitation might be a big enough handicap that it may struggle to find a place in end-game content like Fractals and Raids. I'm mostly waiting to see how this will turn out.

 

On a more minor nitpick, would it be possible to tone down the reds/purple colours in the Scepter's skill icons juuust a tad? XD It looks really garish compared to the Dagger or Pistol offhand skills. Rifle was also really intense in terms of colours but as a two-handed weapon, it wasn't such a problem.

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

Like it or not but this is the average A-Net has to consider when designing these specs. Releasing e-specs which are only good in high level play is terrible game design.

In my experience at least even average PuG's across Fractal's, Strikes and Raids know to stack roughly around boon and heal sharing range, which is enough for Venom Share as well. 

 

Additionally, that's not a Specter issue, but more so a core Venom Thief thing. As for DPS Specter, the main way of Rot Wallow sharing is Consume Shadows, which is actually 600 radius. 

DPS Firebrand for example has a similar "issue" with needing allies for Ashes of the Just share at 600 radius, and it generally does just fine. 

 

BiP Might share is the same range as Venoms, so it default Orders from Above. Heroic Command is just slightly larger. Firebrand Mantras, and so on. 

 

I'd say it's fairly generally understood to stack within 240-300 radius of each other (which is actually quite large).

Edited October 29, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

2 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Condi DD is 33k without allies to share Venoms to, and 41k with allies. The highest I got on Specter was 37k without allies, and that gets extra value from allies with Rot Wallows on top of Spider and Skale, and that was me playing terribly since I'm used to Action Cam, which doesn't work with Specter currently. 

 

Add to that the potential of allied targeting sprinkled in for Rot Wallows, and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if someone manages to break 50k on Specter with allies. 40k is a safe bet though. 

 

And yea, this thing smokes Harbinger in a pipe as it also gets a Shroud for survivability or which you can nuke every couple seconds for a full party heal and barrier (and with that Rot Wallows) as part of your DPS rota with Consume Shadows.

u using sceptor 3 with offhand pistol and spamming it on allies in a line? the beam pierces...meaning more torment application on allies

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

just wish the limitation to target 1 ally was overlooked with taking Improvisation...we dont benefit from it very much because we have no stolen skill on spec, maybe allow a 2nd target when tethering allies, 2 ally support can go a long long way and if we want a full sells build the chance of siphoning to recharge all our wells is low considering its like roulette.

the limit on RV not using leeching venoms is a handicapp in itself since they can only trigger 1 per attack anyway which consumes 1 stack of RV. i dont like how it only uses our utility venoms to leech life...let alone why we have, technically 2, venoms now that apply torment.

[Tails.9372]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

In my experience at least even average PuG's across Fractal's, Strikes and Raids know to stack roughly around boon and heal sharing range, which is enough for Venom Share as well. 

As I said this only applies to high level play. No one stacks in DRMs, people in Fractal PuGs usually doesn't stack either except for T4 and even there its not always a given. People in OW don't stack exept for big meta bosses but even there it's more of a result of the number of players participating than anything else but the simple fact of the matter is that the average player does not stack.

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

As for DPS Specter, the main way of Rot Wallow sharing is Consume Shadows, which is actually 600 radius. 

Not even close, Consume Shadows gives one stack to up to four people while Endless Night gives out seven to up to three people.

[Infusion.7149]

18 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

As I said this only applies to high level play. No one stacks in DRMs, people in Fractal PuGs usually doesn't stack either except for T4 and even there its not always a given. People in OW don't stack exept for big meta bosses but even there it's more of a result of the number of players participating than anything else but the simple fact of the matter is that the average player does not stack.

Not even close, Consume Shadows gives one stack to up to four people while Endless Night gives out seven to up to three people.

Yet from what I've seen it does 33K-35K-ish solo and 44K with allies making it a high skillcap class if the Rot Wallow Venoms require proper positioning and initiative management.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCfAUGn8MK0

The class will be mainly positioning management instead of energy/adrenaline/cooldown management (4 kit condi mech 🤣) if the UI (including hotkeys) is tweaked to better support targeting allies.

The issues with Specter, unlike some other specs are mostly QoL (UI , action cam, well cast times , random port with Measured Shot) or number tweaks.

I ran this elite spec both in W1 raiding and T4 fractals and it felt fine. My guildmates ran it on full support for WVW while I only tried it on plaguedoctor+tormenting rune and they really liked it ("focused barrier is insane").

As I stated in the preview feedback , I think it will be cDPS first and barrier/boon upkeep second similar to how you use a scourge.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Infusion.7149
fix link

[Asum.4960]

39 minutes ago, Lithril Ashwalker.6230 said:

u using sceptor 3 with offhand pistol and spamming it on allies in a line? the beam pierces...meaning more torment application on allies

No, that was purely solo on the Golem. Sc/Dagger. 

30 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Not even close, Consume Shadows gives one stack to up to four people while Endless Night gives out seven to up to three people.

Yes, you can make a more ally reliant build with Sc/P and ally targeting which will likely be even higher DPS (but unless it's obscene it's probably not worth how clunky it is, especially in real case scenarios).

But even Sc/D with just the 600 range share on Consume Shadows and core Venom share is top tier DPS.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Tails.9372]

34 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The issues with Specter, unlike some other specs are mostly QoL (UI , action cam, well cast times , random port with Measured Shot) or number tweaks.

Yet the ones that aren't QoL are rather severe. Losing about "9-11k DPS" on damage focused builds just because no one else is around / people don't want to stack is completely unjustifiable. The main class mechanic being essentially useless for anything other than as ammunition for some traits is also not just a QoL issue and needs more than just some number tweaking.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, Tails.9372 said:

Yet the ones that aren't QoL are rather severe. Losing about "9-11k DPS" on damage focused builds just because no one else is around / people don't want to stack is completely unjustifiable. The main class mechanic being essentially useless for anything other than as ammonition for some traits is also not just a QoL issue and needs more than just some number tweaking.

How is that different than other condi thieves or even firebrand?

[Nephalem.8921]

33 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Yet from what I've seen it does 33K-35K-ish solo and 44K with allies making it a high skillcap class if the Rot Wallow Venoms require proper positioning and initiative management.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCfAUGn8MK0

The class will be mainly positioning management instead of energy/adrenaline/cooldown management (4 kit condi mech 🤣) if the UI (including hotkeys) is tweaked to better support targeting allies.

The issues with Specter, unlike some other specs are mostly QoL (UI , action cam, well cast times , random port with Measured Shot) or number tweaks.

I ran this elite spec both in W1 raiding and T4 fractals and it felt fine. My guildmates ran it on full support for WVW while I only tried it on plaguedoctor+tormenting rune and they really liked it ("focused barrier is insane").

As I stated in the preview feedback , I think it will be cDPS first and barrier/boon upkeep second similar to how you use a scourge.

This needs to get nuked first. The most kittenous rotation i've seen and the support set does max deeps which is wrong aswell.

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Nephalem.8921 said:

This needs to get nuked first. The most kittenous rotation i've seen and the support set does max deeps which is wrong aswell.

But look how much setup it requires? If the Rot Wallow Venom had a cap of some sorts (ICD on use right now rather than trigger) that bench probably wouldn't be possible.

[Nephalem.8921]

1 minute ago, Infusion.7149 said:

But look how much setup it requires? If the Rot Wallow Venom had a cap of some sorts (ICD on use right now rather than trigger) that bench probably wouldn't be possible.

It doesnt require that much setup. Still provides quickness to 3 random players. not sure why he is there with a full squad. 49k+ has been done with just 5. The constant target swap though.

[Tails.9372]

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

How is that different than other condi thieves or even firebrand?

How is that relevant for the argument I just made? If something else is underperforming then that's a topic for another thread. You're also comparing apples to oranges here as firebrand has significant upsides in other areas (like AoE damage) while the design philosophy behind specter is still single target oriented.

[Infusion.7149]

6 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

It doesnt require that much setup. Still provides quickness to 3 random players. not sure why he is there with a full squad. 49k+ has been done with just 5. The constant target swap though.

Anyway that build choice (scepter+pistol)  is not going to be nearly as strong as scepter+dagger as far as barriers if endless night only triggers one rot wallow venom rather than 7. That's something that can be looked at. Arenanet wanted the spec to have extremely strong single target barrier/boon support so I'm sure they'd try to tune it so the single target support is stronger and the incidental multi-target support is weaker on average.

Given every support right now is 5 or 10 targets it's better they err on the over-performing side at least as far as barriers. In WVW/PVP the quickness output is far lower on endless night and torment output is far lower on the auto attack among other skills.
-----

Firebrand loses ~7K on 8 page CFB without allies and so does condi thief (deadeye/daredevil). So as long as solo performance is in line with 34K or so it is more than usable.

1 minute ago, Tails.9372 said:

How is that relevant for the argument I just made? If something else is underperforming then that's a topic for another thread. You're also comparing apples to oranges here as firebrand has significant upsides in other areas (like AoE damage) while the design philosophy behind specter is still single target oriented.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Tails.9372]

7 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Firebrand loses ~7K on 8 page CFB without allies and so does condi thief (deadeye/daredevil). So as long as solo performance is in line with 34K or so it is more than usable.

And other damage focused builds don't lose anything for not being around other players. Your argument here essentially boils down to "it's ok for it to be underperforming for no reason because other builds are too".

[Infusion.7149]

43 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

And other damage focused builds don't lose anything for not being around other players. Your argument here essentially boils down to "it's ok for it to be underperforming for no reason because other builds are too".

Sure if you call 33K- 36K DPS underperforming for a spec that is nearly all ranged and also supports people

For me I'm taking the 36K DPs with an upside over 37K DPS with no upside...

Been using specter to help out random players in T4 fractals and also with ad infinitum CMs with -80% healing (I normally use scourge/scrapper for those)

Edited October 29, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Tails.9372]

36 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Sure if you call 36K DPS unperforming for a spec that is nearly all ranged and also supports people

You're not supporting anyone if there are no other players around or they refuse to stack up. Also the average for DPS focused builds is around 40k (which includes other ranged builds) so yes it is, per definition, underperforming. Especially for a single target focussed spec that, for the most part, doesn't get to benefit from the main focus of its own utility.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Tails.9372

[LucianDK.8615]

The specter definitely seems far worser than the scourge ever was in the beginning of pof, before its power was gradually nuked.