Specter Feedback Thread

[Infusion.7149]

32 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

You're not supporting anyone if there are no other players around or they refuse to stack up. Also the average for DPS focused builds is around 40k (which includes other ranged builds) so yes it is, per definition, underperforming. Especially for a single target focussed spec that, for the most part, doesn't get to benefit from its own utility skills.

?
37K condi berserker/condi holo/ condi soulbeast / condi scourge / condi FB 5 pages with allies

33K condi soulbeast with single shortbow

40K is condi ren (which is overperforming, was 37K before torment changes) , 8 page CFB with allies , condi axe mirage, the new condi mech played with 4 kits (lol), condi weaver played perfectly with lesser eles ...

600 radius is huge and the barriers you put out single target have 900 range. If people aren't in 600 radius you should really find a new group because they aren't getting any boons whatsoever: even spirits/banners , tempest shouts, or "Stand Your Ground" to stop knockbacks.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

Yet the ones that aren't QoL are rather severe. Losing about "9-11k DPS" on damage focused builds just because no one else is around / people don't want to stack is completely unjustifiable. The main class mechanic being essentially useless for anything other than as ammunition for some traits is also not just a QoL issue and needs more than just some number tweaking.

Again, this is not a Specter thing. This is primarily caused by Spider and Skale Venom, core Thief condi DPS Utility skills, which are just as prevalent in Condi Daredevil and Condi Deadeye, and is a thing since over 5 years. 

 

You can make a very potent Sc/D DPS Specter that relies very little on Rot Wallow venoms to achieve good numbers, but it's those same core Thief skills part of every condi Thief build that require allies for peak numbers.

 

Plus, again, if people don't stack in those ranges, they won't have boons, won't get heals etc. and will lose far more than 9-11k DPS and the group is screwed anyway. 

If you are playing in such groups, meta builds and benchmarks made for and assuming such groups and tactics aren't all that relevant anyway, and you are better off with running solo/ow builds that self-buff (and btw, Specter is a pretty top tier solo contender as well, not Renegade-like broken, but pretty good).

 

40 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Also the average for DPS focused builds is around 40k (which includes other ranged builds) so yes it is, per definition, underperforming. Especially for a single target focussed spec that, for the most part, doesn't get to benefit from the main focus of its own utility.

Since when? There only ever have been very, very few peak performing builds breaching 40k, and that either usually not for long, or they are very impractical almost purely benchmarking golem builds - or overtuned beta specs. 

 

It's in no way shape or form the "average" DPS.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Artyport.2084]

I wish there was an F3 that switched whether the skills targeted enemies or allies .

 

would make it much easier when things get crowded to just aim in the right direction 

[Feathers.6342]

I played a lot of specter compared to how much I tested the other specs. I only really play thief in this game and that's because I like the damage output and mobility and the particle effects and whatnot aren't too over the top and the animations are typically quite easy to read and feel responsive. I have played every class in the game to varying degrees and at least tried every spec, and so far I haven't found much reason to move away from thief, aside from sorta enjoying berserker and mirage, which I have one of but don't play nearly as much.

I was disappointed that the weapon we were getting is scepter at first, just 'cause I don't think they're that interesting, and a little more disappointed when I heard it was going to be a support spec. But I figured thieves did a fair bit of damage anyways and the single-target heals were way more interesting to me than how we've had healing and support in the past. So I managed to talk myself into being pretty excited to try it on the beta! And I really did try to like it, but at current it's not really for me and I'll probably play as a bladesworn my first time through EoD.

The issues, in my opinion, first arose for me when it turns out that in this beta that 3rd skills don't work in action camera. Which sucks, since I love action camera and use it almost all of the time. But this is a bug, so I can forgive it. Secondly, the way that target selecting and switching works in game now just presents me with too many new keybinds to try to figure out to make selecting a specific target in a chaotic fight feel anything but frustrating. I'm sure I could get used to that in time or get better at picking out targets with my mouse, but it breaks the flow of the combat for me and is a bit of a turn-off. Next, it just doesn't do any damage, like, really at all, and I'm not even sure if the healing is good enough to actually be used anywhere in the game. I don't get the impression I'll be able to even finish the EoD story as a solo player or playing with my boyfriend as a specter, it just feels too weak and I was unable to find a good build that felt it put out at least a decent amount of damage for casual PvE.

The wells are pretty cool, but I think the well of Sorrow is pretty undertuned. I think it could be a really genuinely awesome ability if it were a little stronger. I also think the class needs to lean a little more into putting out bleed, poison and/or more torment. Thief has a lot of bleed and poison application in its other trait lines but they don't feel like they pay off much when you're using specter. The amount of torment the class can currently put out feels a little lackluster, too, and it relies on a target remaining still. This could work out quite fun in team plays, using Devourer Venom to immobilise targets and put out a bunch of damage, but the amount of torment you can put out feels just too low for this to be satisfying.

I tried out going for more of a hybrid healing and damage spec among the times I tried using full viper's and full minstrel's, and the healing feels pretty good when you have another person to play with, but the low damage is only far more noticeable and the healing isn't that much better. Finding a middle ground in the spec is hard and the damage end didn't lead to much damage for me. Maybe I'm just missing something, but I'm usually fairly keen on buildcraft and I was pretty stumped about this sorta thing the entire time I was experimenting. The healing well feels really powerful, but well balanced. between builds I tried the only thing that had a logical curve of effectiveness was this well - on a pure condi build it felt strong enough to keep me alive and give out some little boosts to teammates, and on a support build it often felt like the most impactful tool I had.

Oh and the elite skill's effect is really pretty bad. The way it heavily warps everything is cool the first time I guess but if you stand in it it distorts your whole screen and trying to convince people to stand in a bunch of wells that makes it hard to see is impossible.

I THINK that's all I really have to say about it. Overall I think there's something with a lot of potential here. I often really don't play support specs but if I can put out some decent damage on my own and support a friend then I'll consider this spec a success. I'm interested to see how ironing out the bugs and tweaking the balance will have it turn out in the end 😄

TL;DR: Specter is pretty cool even though I don't like support specs generally. With some rebalancing to make it more viable for a solo player, or a player playing with a small group in PvE and some animation changes it could be pretty great!

Edited October 29, 2021 by Feathers.6342

[Nephalem.8921]

59 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

You're not supporting anyone if there are no other players around or they refuse to stack up. Also the average for DPS focused builds is around 40k (which includes other ranged builds) so yes it is, per definition, underperforming. Especially for a single target focussed spec that, for the most part, doesn't get to benefit from the main focus of its own utility.

In what world is 40k average? just 2 builds are currently that high. mirage and renegade. everything else is below that unless you mean other overtuned eod specs.

[Vancho.8750]

See they got the wrong profession to give no weapon swap it should have been specter, you get shroud in its place, also the whole less initiative is not good in my opinion that should go away. And with that simple change you get an elite spec that can't muscle in the great thief mobility along side shroud, support and damage you will have to pick which one to exclude.
This is mostly PvP, WvW perspective if it drops the PVE dps good it is a support spec.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Vancho.8750

[Tails.9372]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

37K condi berserker/condi holo/ condi soulbeast / condi scourge / condi FB with 5 pages

Aggain apples to oranges, all of these enjoy other benefits the specter does not (like benefiting from the main focus of their own support) or are not single target focussed. Also, condi soulbeast is at 40k (and this build has been buffed multiple times since then).

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

Again, this is not a Specter thing.

Except it is as you can still lose a substantial amount of DPS by not channeling your attacks trough other players even if you don't run Shadow Arts and as I already said other things having similar issues is a topic for another thread.

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

Plus, again, if people don't stack in those ranges, they won't have boons, won't get heals etc. and will lose far more than 9-11k DPS and the group is screwed anyway.

Which is beside the point.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

Aggain apples to oranges, all of these enjoy other benefits the specter does not (like benefiting from the main focus of their own support) or are not single target focussed. Also, condi soulbeast is at 40k (and this build has been buffed multiple times since then).

Except it is as you can still lose a substantial amount of DPS by not channeling your attacks trough other players even if you don't run Shadow Arts and as I already said other things having similar issues is a topic for another thread.

Which is beside the point.

You linked something from 2017...
If you find anything over 37-38K DPS for cDPS soulbeast let me know. I actually need this info since I help update the wiki article linked by GW2RA.

Scepter+dagger doesn't channel attacks through other players, Venoms function similar to Ashes of the Just on Firebrand.

[Tails.9372]

30 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You linked something from 2017...

Yes and as I said most of the things there have been buffed ever since so this is even stronger now than is was back then, your point?

[Infusion.7149]

Just now, Tails.9372 said:

Yes and as I said most of the things there have been buffed ever since so this is even stronger now than is was back then, your point?

Where's your proof that something breaks 40K? I am really interested in seeing it.
You put "even stronger than it was back then" , which means you're suggesting it does more damage than before and/or more support.

[Tails.9372]

19 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Where's your proof that something breaks 40K? I am really interested in seeing it.
You put "even stronger than it was back then" , which means you're suggesting it does more damage than before and/or more support.

It's in the version history of the skills / traits. I've gone through all of them and most of the skills and traits have either been buffed or are untouched (e.g.) so there is no reason to assume that the same build would now somehow do less damage then it did back then unless the official wiki is just horribly inaccurate and outdated witch to my knowledge is not the case.

[Infusion.7149]

8 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

It's in the version history of the skills / traits. I've gone through all of them and most of the skills and traits have either been buffed or are untouched (e.g.) so there is no reason to assume that the same build would now somehow do less damage then it did back then unless the official wiki is just horribly inaccurate and outdated witch to my knowledge is not the case.

So you have no evidence other than some history of skills and traits?
You do know August 2020 they bugfixed Viper's Nest? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Viper's_Nest
2018 they fixed Flame Trap hitting extra times. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flame_Trap
The video note also says without Sylvan Hound it is ~37K as in the [LN] video referenced.
What a let down.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[CrazyRabidSquirrel.9274]

I tested Specter mainly Roaming in WvW. I tested a condi oriented build, and a support oriented built to test the effectiveness of the two aspects of Specter. Ideally, a Specter would probably want to run a mix of the two.

 

The access to so many shadowsteps seemed like a huge mobility advantage. But because they all have cast times without a break stun, I had to bring Shadowstep along like usual. In general I feel like Specter lacks break stuns and condi removal, making Shadowstep a must (which is kind of ironic since shadowstep seems to be the central mechanic of Specter). In general, the access to more shadowstep utilities worked well, and the elite skill seems like the strongest one Thief has gotten.

 

Running scepter and picking Specter seem pretty much synonymous, especially when looking at support oriented builds. Scepter grants access to barrier mechanics and ally-targeted skills (the first in the game!) which take advantage of some powerful traits. When it comes to the support aspect though (especially for scepter), I found some major issues.

 

The single target scepter and steal barriers are weak. The point of a barrier is to mitigate damage, and to proc other related traits (Rot Wallow). In terms of damage mitigating, the barrier is too small, must be reapplied too frequently, and the dual skills have too long of a cast/channel time for them to be effective. And Specter also lacks enough traits that can improve the barriers. I feel like adding an AoE ally barrier, bouncing projective barrier, or even a projectile that bounced to allies AND to enemies without specifically having to target one, would significantly improve Specter's barrier support function. That or beef up the single ally target, to encourage switching targets rather than just spamming one.  Right now, I basically have to spam autocast onto a single target to make any difference. Meanwhile, if I had been providing active damage support by pressuring enemies, I probably would have aided the fight much more effectively than wasting time casting barriers on an ally. Steal has the bonus that it procs other traits, but it would greatly benefit from some help (especially when it comes to how quickly you can charge shroud). In general, I found support Specter underwhelming. 

 

When it comes to condis, Specter seems to perform a lot better. Access to torment through traits, utilites, weapons, and shroud makes Specter a big condi threat to single targets while also taking advantage of excellent mobility, and also allowing thief to spec into a more durable build like dire or trailblazer while maintaining strong condi pressure. Scepter builds do struggle, though, especially in terms of the dual skills, which are easily dodged, and have long channel/cast times. Much like with the support-oriented scepter, I feel like a bouncing projectile would help alot in 1v2 or more situations. When outnumbered on a condi build, dagger/dagger or pistol/dagger are still vastly superior.

 

This sort of brings up the idea of not running scepter at all. Losing out on many of the traits and functions of Specter seems like such a shame, but Shroud is very strong as well as the access to more shadowsteps. Right now, I see a DD/SB trailblazer's build as being far more effective than anything with a scepter, which lots of access to torment, bleeding, and poison. The scepter being a ranged poker replaces shortbow, almost forcing you to run dagger/dagger as the switch. But without shortbow you lose access to yet another shadowstep, a strong poison/daze field on downs, and bleeds.

 

Thief lacks strong AoE, with Shortbow being the fallback, but Shroud seems a major improvement in general. I do feel, though, like Shroud is slow to charge, and I could never figure out what exactly charges it. Is it executing actions on foes/allies? Is it steal? Is it combat in general? There seem to be alot of things that consume shroud, but not as many that charge it. 

 

This are some of my insights. I think Specter is a big improvement to the versatility of Thief. But in general, it seems like Scourge does all of the roles of Specter a whole lot better. 

[Crystal Black.8190]

Just discovered there is no stelath attack for shroud, which is  disappointing. I would like to see one added, having a special attack while stelathed is one of the fun parts of thief, shroud shouldnt be excluded here.

[Bazsi.2734]

I really dislike that this e-spec landed on thief, but that aside...

It's incredibly overtuned, but it's not just numbers. When you're losing a teamfight, it shouldn't be the enemy support that chases you down. Mobility, stealth, barrier, constant slow, condi or power(or both) bursts that almost kill you on their own... specter is a monster. I know this won't be much of a useful critique, but I don't see any other solution for this in PvP beside "nerf it to uselessness".
Like this is just so evidently too much. The tradeoff is almost non-existant(3 initiative, lol), and for sacrificing basicly nothing, you get the strongest sustain/offensive support combo that exists in the game to date.

I don't want to(and not going to) play a game where the current iteration of specter exists. I really thought a-net learned not to release powercrept designs into the game after PoF, turns out I was wrong.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Bazsi.2734

[kash.9213]

On 10/28/2021 at 10:17 AM, Will.9785 said:

Good lord is switching targets constantly a pain in the kitten.  Who on earth thought this would be anything approaching fun?

I talked about Scepter targeting before. While I think that opacity and outline would help, last night I had also thought that a small radial menu at the curser when Scepter is equipped can be set to an opacity to see action behind it (even if the radial menu wouldn't be huge anyway) as a fast way to grab someone in a small frontal cone out of the ball of light in large fights. The radial menu could bring up a layer or two, depending on how many people, with squad/group window like slots with truncated information for a quick glance.

It could basically be what we see in squad window, showing class icons and the square or slot showing health status and maybe very small icons for conditions. Then you could select the ally or enemy you want to tether or even just top off with a little barrier.

That's if the opacity and outline are just impossible. Likely what we have is what we'll keep though, but I guess it would condition us to be super stars with Left Mouse targeting. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by kash.9213

[anna.5487]

It's a good idea but can hardly work in GW2 safe group PVE content. Targeting reliably is impossible, it's squishy, there are no proper macros in this game, and so on. This would have worked perfectly on necro, with a larger health pool, carapace, and so on.

Edited October 29, 2021 by anna.5487

[Wiegrav.5729]

The well skills are interesting, especially the well that pulls all enemies to the center.  The new weapon type on the Thief is just disappointing, and honestly, I am not sure why not use something more reminiscent of the Assassin from the Factions expansion of GW.  Why not add in new weapon based skills to further vary combat?

Edited October 29, 2021 by Wiegrav.5729
typo

[Vekszi.4132]

i would really like to see the spectre being fitted not just for a sort of party support role but also, it would be great if it was viable for open world PVE.

[nopoet.2960]

10 hours ago, Zaxares.5419 said:

On a more minor nitpick, would it be possible to tone down the reds/purple colours in the Scepter's skill icons juuust a tad? XD It looks really garish compared to the Dagger or Pistol offhand skills. Rifle was also really intense in terms of colours but as a two-handed weapon, it wasn't such a problem.

YES! It looks like two separate classes.  The scepter's icons are too bold and too red.

[Tails.9372]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

You do know August 2020 they bugfixed Viper's Nest? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Viper's_Nest

Which is irrelevant as he wasn't using Trapper's Expertise to begin with.

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

2018 they fixed Flame Trap hitting extra times. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flame_Trap

Then they buffed it by doubling the initial burn application.

But even if we go with the 37k that would still go up to 38k thanks to the bonus damage from the rune changes alone and factoring in the other changes would put it closer to 39k which I would consider "around 40k".

Also, while your responses are full of deflections from the issue (e.g. by ignoring part of what I said and comparing it to classes that a: have still more damage, b: are AoE focused and c; actually benefit from the main bulk of their own support, some of which all at once) I have yet to hear a single good argument as for why the stark drop in DPS (on DPS focused builds) in non group scenarios is justified in spite of all its other shortcomings.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Grand Marshal.4098]

Many have touched upon tracking (including shroud 3 that needs to be able to redirect towards your target) but here ill put some more ideas.

 

Shallow grave isn't the best comp trait. If CD reduction enver happens, or if the mechanic of healing yourself by consuming shroud even without max health isn't added, remove the trait and add a simple idea to it: Break stuns and 3 stab (3s) on shroud entering. Easy, simple, something thief lacks, shourd is meant to be a defensive mechanism, but doesn't work as one. You usually find yourself enetring shroud, getting CC'd to oblivion with the awful stab on shroud 5, having no life force to kite in the end and dying.

 

In shroud 4, add Prot and Resolution instead of stab.

Increase AA speed by 25%.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Grand Marshal.4098

[StormCleric.2843]

Specter was great. I love support roles (even though I suck at them), so this was right up my alley. When I first heard that it was single target healing, I kinda had a panic attack because in my mind, multi-target healing was easier. However, I didn't really have much issue with that. Of course, I've heard that there are a lot of issues with the allied targeting hot key and that stuff, but I haven't really used that. But overall, it's a very interesting spec at it's core. The only thing that I think fell short was the shadow force. To me, it was kind of hard to acquire. Siphon did help with that, but only when targeting an enemy. Normally, I'd think that's okay, but this spec is designed to constantly target allies, so when you use Siphon on an ally, I think some amount of shadow force should be gained. Cool spec, though.

[Ivaldi.5076]

Also have to add that the Scepter Human Male animations are just awful, absolutely atrocious.  Male Asura look reasonable, but the human male ones are some of the worst out of place animations I've seen in this game and honestly others.  The auto attack really needs a different animation.  I'm still confused as to why the focus wasn't used instead, that way it could have just matched the Shadow Shroud animations.

 

Edit:  I am referring to the 'triple bonk' the final attack in the auto chain to be specific, which I think is also the Human Male 1h Axe auto chain.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Ivaldi.5076
Specified

[motozuma.5917]

I think for me what's not clicking with Specter is I don't feel like I'm excelling at any one thing, but rather I'm mediocre at a lot of things. As a friend put it, it almost feels like I need a manual or some kind of How To guide to play this elite profession, it's really not like anything else (maybe rev?)

 

I totally get flipping the script with Specter, I've actually been been stoked to finally get a true support focused thief! However, the thief profession has always felt laser focused on One Thing. In this case, going in, I thought it was going to be laser focused on Support and Utility.

 

When playing Specter, I'm not exactly sure what I'm suppose to be doing half the time; am long range or right up on my target? Am I suppose to be focusing on ally or punching an enemy? When am I tethered? I can't seem to get the tether mechanic to click and I'm not able to see any visual tethering on my screen to allies or enemies. Shadow Shroud seems a bit underwhelming and most of the time I forget its even there.

 

Specifically for ally targeting, is there a way to not target mesmer clones or ranger pets/necro minions? Alternatively, I think it would be effective if the scepter skills could pass through targets (ally and enemy) so if a buddy is sandwiched between me and a target, they could get some support while I'm focusing in on the target.
 

Other than that, some likes I have are that I really love the sound design for this class! I think the wells are nifty and the stealth/alacrity angle is great imo. The scepter animations are clean, and the combo skills with the offhand weapon feel substantial with neat visual effects.

EDIT: I did want to add that I was running around mainly in the Halloween Labrynth when testing this out. I ran using a Plaguedoctor set and then a Griever's set.

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by motozuma.5917