Specter Feedback Thread

[Rosabell.4283]

The specter I feel is great as it adds a different playstyle to the thief that is not seen with the other specializations in the past expansions. However, I have seen a few problems with it.

 

The one thing I found is that when you do the elite well, "Shadowfall", there is a distortion on the ground that makes it hard for me to fight within it. It disorientates me and I can't tell where my character and enemies are within it. It would be great if this distortion can be lessened in effect so it is not as disorienting and hard on the eyes.

 

The other thing I noticed is the third attack of the auto attack chain. I have it selected so that it will constantly repeat on a target so I don't have to spam the 1 key. The attack has a very long cast time, which is roughly the first and second attacks combined or higher. Also, most of the time the third attack gets triggered twice. It would be nice if the animation time could be decreased and not cast twice on the third skill in the auto attack chain. 

[SkyCake.4216]

This is a common theme on the feedback forums and I understand it can be kind of annoying to read since it kind of it for me on my mains. But! "I don't really play too much Thief and I really enjoy Specter."

It has issues and bugs. But, it's a theme and playstyle I've been wanting on the Thief for since early-HoT. I've played classes like it on other games such as the Operative in SWTOR. This might actually be my favorite elite-spec based on these betas. And, I don't even have the gear I want on it because I'm a dumb-dumb that forgot to plan ahead! 

- The Wells are kind of "meh" outside of the trait that gives Shadow Force and Alacrity. Running around on a DPS build, I'm only using one utility well and the elite. The elite one could be replaced in the build. I feel like the range in PvE could be extended up to 900. Even 750 would be great. They're so close to being useful for movement, but feel more like Jaunt on Mirage due to the cast time. The advantages they provide without the Traversing Dusk trait are relatively small. Maybe lasting longer with one or even two more pulses would help. Especially with the whole "if they have all [boons/conditions], [x] happens" tooltips. Removing the cast time is also another option. They're just so close to being perfect in so many ways! Just a single tweak away. Shadowfall is probably too easy to accidentally cancel yourself. Well of Tears is kind of lame. 

- The Shadow Shroud is fun. I have issues with Shroud 4, Eternal Night. Numbers aside, it feels very underwhelming. It's slow and the animation is difficult to notice. I've seen people mention that Shadow Shroud doesn't feel very Thief-like and I believe it's largely due to Eternal Night. Shroud 2 and 3 are fine. Shroud 1, Haunt Shot, teeters on the side of being fine but I'm sure something more interesting could have been done rather than copying core Necro Shroud 1. Shroud 5, Mind Shock, is too slow. I wouldn't be bothered by it if it wasn't a source of Stability. The cast time needs to be nearly halved at least. Even at the cost of a slightly longer CD. Overall, I like the Shroud! It's just a little too slow in some areas. 

- Traits! Most of them are great and as edgy as this may sound, probably the best named traits out of any of the elite specs. Kudos to the person that named them, lol. Second Opinion on the adept column could maybe be changed out for a DPS trait. The adept line has no DPS-specific traits and honestly Second Opinion isn't needed thanks to competing against Consume Shadows, an extremely strong trait. Maybe once/if Consume Shadows gets nerfed Second Opinion would be more appealing, but I still think a DPS adept trait would make the elite spec more appealing to people that don't want to play support. Amplified Siphoning is "fine", but boring relative to the other two choices. The GM traits are mostly great. Hungering Darkness feels like a "oh yeah, condi-cleanse!" last minute kind of thing but is still fine. I think a GM trait that allowed some form of minor AoE tether (perhaps around the tether target) would be much more appealing. Or a GM trait that reduces the range of the tether by like 50%, but allows you to spawn more tethers. 

- Scepter Specter! It's fun to say. I really enjoy the AA on this even though I don't typically care too much for AAs. It's so quick though kind of wonky on the third cast because it seems to clip into the cast time of other abilities. Including it's own AA chain. I love chasing people with it and having scepter battles with other specters. You can't mount while doing  it making it kind of annoying. Shadow Sap is fine. The dual skills are great, but Measured Shot might be too strong as sad as it makes me to admit. Twilight Combo has a fun animation and is also quite strong.

 

Overall, I'm really enjoying Specter despite feeling like it was undertuned/baked at first. I haven't tried it in sPvP, but for PvE and WvW it's been a blast. I'm actually really looking forward to using it in ranked sPvP even though I haven't played ranked in years. I think the notion of "it's a caster so it has to be slower" should be thrown away, especially on the Wells and Shadow Shroud. Really looking forward to the refining of this elite-spec because it's so close already! 

[Asum.4960]

4 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Which is irrelevant as he wasn't using Trapper's Expertise to begin with.

Then they buffed it by doubling the initial burn application.

But even if we go with the 37k that would still go up to 38k thanks to the bonus damage from the rune changes alone and factoring in the other changes would put it closer to 39k which I would consider "around 40k".

Also, while your responses are full of deflections from the issue (e.g. by ignoring part of what I said and comparing it to classes that a: have still more damage, b: are AoE focused and c; actually benefit from the main bulk of their own support, some of which all at once) I have yet to hear a single good argument as for why the stark drop in DPS (on DPS focused builds) in non group scenarios is justified in spite of all its other shortcomings.

 

He isn't deflecting though, he's giving you factual numbers, while you are making up fantasy benchmarks that have either long since been nerfed, exactly because they were overperforming, or just don't exist. You can't just add a couple thousand DPS to builds due to made up factors that are obviously already included in those up to date benchmarks and expect anyone to take that seriously.

 

You can't just proclaim 40k as the average DPS builds do in GW2 when there's literally just 5 builds in the entire game capable of just so reaching 40k, most of them being highly situational or unrealistic outside of the Golem, either relying on Huge hitboxes, completely static bosses or unrealistic real fight conditions like 100% Aegis uptime. 

 

Also your whole premise of there being no justification for DPS drops in non-group scenarios doesn't make any sense to begin with. 

Everything does far less DPS in non-group scenarios, they all rely on stacking. 

The point of those meta builds is to be played in a group, to stack and apply or gain buffs from each other, be it unique effects like Banners, Spirits, Venoms, Ashes or passive buffs like Assassin's Presence, Spotter, Empower Allies, to someone else having to apply Vuln, to other's granting Might, Fury, Quickness, etc. - if you don't stack and buff each other, these builds and benchmarks aren't relevant to you to begin with. 

 

I don't really know how to explain that any further.

 

 

[Gunther Clone C.6742]

Skills don't always activate when in action camera mode "Need a target to se this skill" when I have a target selected.  Also, when an ally is targeted in action cam, using skills overrides the target to the nearest available enemy to ally target.

[Tails.9372]

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

He isn't deflecting though, he's giving you factual numbers

Which are irrelevant for the argument at hand as the point was that the DPS is still way below the average for what it brings to the table which is something he hasn't contested but instead chose to focus on something rather vaure to take opposition to. So yes, whether intentional or not it was still a deflection from the point I was making.

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

while you are making up fantasy benchmarks that have either long since been nerfed, exactly because they were overperforming, or just don't exist

Snowcrows lists a multitude of builds for several classes with DPS benchmarks around 40k, other builds / classes have less which is to be expected as for some their focus goes more towards other things while other ones are underperforming.

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

You can't just proclaim 40k as the average DPS builds do in GW2

Except I never did, that's just what you were reading into it. I said "around 40k" which ofc. includes builds that are close to 40k but still below it.

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

most of them being highly situational or unrealistic outside of the Golem, either relying on Huge hitboxes, completely static bosses or unrealistic real fight conditions

Sure, but who brought up these benchmarks to begin with? It was you wasn't it? I only mentioned them in response to people who used them in their responses to me.

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Also your whole premise of there being no justification for DPS drops in non-group scenarios doesn't make any sense to begin with.

It doesn't make any sense to you because that's, again, just something you were reading into my posts as I never said that something has to be as strong in "solo play" as it would be with full support from other classes but there is still a difference between missing out on DPS because you're missing specific support buffs from other classes or you not having the DPS simply because the DPS the spec in question can muster on its own is rather lackluster to begin with which is the case for specter mainly because on one hand it's gated out of the most relevant part of its own offensive support (and support in general) while also on the other hand its "special e-spec mechanic" doesn't even try to make up for it.

3 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Everything does far less DPS in non-group scenarios, they all rely on stacking. 

But only specter relies on traits for damage through channeling their attacks through other players to the point where constantly buffing them does more damage than actually attacking the enemy. You would have to double the torment application on enemy targeted scepter skills to roughly match what you get from RWV which has nothing to do with the usual "but you have to stack up for buffs from other party members".

Edited October 30, 2021 by Tails.9372

[flowdragon.8635]

Shroud 3 is a good concept, but it needs a sort of elastic targeting system because otherwise you have to back up (usually for me with a dodge roll) just to land the end of the charge on the target. If you could make the targeting stretch from the player up to a certain point so we could target an enemy that was closer, it would be much more effective and efficient for playing.

[Asum.4960]

2 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

Which are irrelevant for the argument at hand as the point was that the DPS is still way below the average for what it brings to the table which is something he hasn't contested but instead chose to focus on something rather vaure to take opposition to. So yes, whether intentional or not it was still a deflection from the point I was making.

Snowcrows lists a multitude of builds for several classes with DPS benchmarks around 40k, other builds / classes have less which is to be expected as for some their focus goes more towards other things while other ones are underperforming.

Except I never did, that's just what you were reading into it. I said "around 40k" which ofc. includes builds that are close to 40k but still below it.

Sure, but who brought up these benchmarks to begin with? It was you wasn't it? I only mentioned them in response to people who used them in their responses to me.

It doesn't make any sense to you because that's, again, just something you were reading into my posts as I never said that something has to be as strong in "solo play" as it would be with full support from other classes but there is still a difference between missing out on DPS because you're missing specific support buffs from other classes or you not having the DPS simply because the DPS the spec in question can muster on its own is rather lackluster to begin with which is the case for specter mainly because on one hand it's gated out of the most relevant part of its own offensive support (and support in general) while also on the other hand its "special e-spec mechanic" doesn't even try to make up for it.

But only specter relies on traits for damage through channeling their attacks through other players to the point where constantly buffing them does more damage than actually attacking the enemy. You would have to double the torment application on enemy targeted scepter skills to roughly match what you get from RWV which has nothing to do with the usual "but you have to stack up for buffs from other party members".

 

How is bringing up benchmarks that show that the average DPS is much lower than what you claim it is and that Specter is actually overperforming quite a bit in terms of DPS in comparison, irrelevant to or deflection from you proclaiming that the average DPS is way higher than it actually is and that Specter is supposedly underperforming?

 

That's some serious mental gymnastics.

 

Yes, Snowcrows has some builds at or slightly above 40k DPS, almost all of them are currently overtuned EoD Beta specs, just like Specter with it's ~45k DPS is, and most of the other's are unrealistic for actual gameplay outside a DPS Golem or highly situational, as I noted in my previous post, requiring things like huge hitboxes which are rare, static bosses or permanent Aegis uptime. 

Their 40k, which Specter shoots way above still, are unrealistic, absolute peak benching builds. The average is thousands of DPS lower. 

 

You literally said, and I quote "the average for DPS focused builds is around 40k". When there are only 5 builds at 40k DPS pretty much exactly, 3 of them being unrealistic in actual gameplay, and literally hundreds of builds sitting around ~30-37k DPS, then that's just factually wrong. 

But even if 40k were the average, Specter would still be overperfroming with it's over 44k DPS (without any ally targeting/Rot Wallow Venom shenanigans). 

 

So unfortunately you are just wrong on every account. 

Anyway, not derailing this Thread further.

[Padd.1479]

Feedback from a WvW Roamer (Power builds)

I almost exclusively play WvW with thief power builds and look for fights/duels.

I didn't expect it but in this scenario specter works very well. Even though the traits don't do a lot for power builds, specter gives enough sustain (mainly through shroud lifepool and barriers) that you can go more offensive. Hence, people tend to play with trickery (ofc) and crit strikes.

- Scepter #2 isn't useful really and is mostly ignored.

- scepter/dagger #3 is quite clunky to use imo but deals a lot of dmg in its current state so scepter/dagger is mostly just #3 spam, nothing else really since dagger offhand isn't synergising well with specter as a whole.

- Shroud skills are great, #3 is ofc way too clunky in its current state - not having to move the whole distance every time would be great as a start.

- Going in and out of shroud is great and fluid and I'm afraid that it is too strong and will be made more clunky to use by restricting shroud access more.

- I'm not a big fan of the wells and the different cast times and I think they are mostly used as extra mobility tools and quickness providers (chrono runes). The elite one on the other hand is a great tool.

- Improvisation (deadly arts) should provide some other benefit other than skill recharge since there are no stolen skills.

- The much needed acrobatics buff would be great now to provide specter a defensive line outside of shadow arts (which by the way should definitely finally be nerfed in the near future since it holds thief back)

 

Specter is AMAZING in the way that it opens up the class so much. Finally there are other roles to fill, I can go bruiser and be less reliant on shadow arts and stealth as a whole. I can be IN a zerg and be effective. And ofc I could go full (offensive) support and condi - which I wouldn't but that's what it is designed for.

[graishak.5406]

wvw support:

no cleanse outside shroud, and shroud itself isnt really worth it, just double tap for consume shadows

shroud might need some boons for the ally, or blinds to mitigate dmg

if CS gave the heal around the shrouded ally when you enter instead (still draining when you leave), i would get to actually use some shroud skills

or give scepter 2 an ally cleanse

also lack of stunbreaks, no well stunbreak, forced to use utility skill for shadowstep and cant stunbreak ally

[Androx.8572]

Deadeye for the win . Refund Please.

I am very unsatisfied with the fact they used Thief’s third elite slot for support. 

This is not what everyone wanted

There are classes already made for those scenarios.

And the result is when you try to force some weird profile into an assassin themed character , it under performs as support because Thief is not originally a support class. 
 

Did Devs played this Specter Spec with their friends at work on PvE , sPvP or WvW ? 
If you did , then you realize this Spec might kinda work well playing with someone else , but in reality we are not accompanied the whole time in game , so if you are alone , what will you do? Support yourself so you can kill that veteran hydra or else? Oh wait the damage falls short…

 

[WhiteWolfGalo.5720]

I would like to start with i am enjoying this class a lot better than most of the builds i have been playing with the Thief. For me if feels it has a lot more movement and an interesting play style. I like to try new things. the first and only issue i want to bring up is when i am using action camera mode the 3rd key does not work AT ALL. I even drop out of action camera tag the enemy and go back in to action camera mode and it still tells me i need to target an enemy.

Edit:

I just tested a possibility and I found that it does not do this with the base weapon. However when paring the scepter with a dagger it does this every time. When paring this with the pistol it does this occasionally.

Edited October 30, 2021 by WhiteWolfGalo.5720
Addtional Information

[Gatvin.6510]

So I don't love the flavor, and other thief specs still have a lot of problems, but this works. This works very well. Specter has the ability to output functional healing basically anywhere it needs to on demand, which is something no other class does. Additionally, it gives thief boatload of built-in survivability  and utility by adding an extra health bar and 5 extra cooldowns to burn,  both traditional weaknesses of the class. In 5-man scenarios, the healing output shines like a diamond. If I'm paired up with someone in PvP that knows what they're doing, it feels like we can't lose.

 

I suspect it will underwhelm in large-group scenarios like Raids and Zergs. 900 range single-target is not enough to safely or effectively engage an enemy zerg. I don't personally do large pve outside the occasional world-event, but I can imagine similar problems there. Even then though, its possible the on-demand healing at current numbers will be good enough to circumvent that.

 

There's a lot of problems with the other thief specializations that I'd rather have fixed before adding a new one, but I can't deny that Specter is pretty solidly functional and carves out a unique niche in the game. Engineer med-kit could learn a thing or two from this spec.

[kash.9213]

29 minutes ago, Gatvin.6510 said:

So I don't love the flavor, and other thief specs still have a lot of problems, but this works. This works very well. Specter has the ability to output functional healing basically anywhere it needs to on demand, which is something no other class does. Additionally, it gives thief boatload of built-in survivability  and utility by adding an extra health bar and 5 extra cooldowns to burn,  both traditional weaknesses of the class. In 5-man scenarios, the healing output shines like a diamond. If I'm paired up with someone in PvP that knows what they're doing, it feels like we can't lose.

 

I suspect it will underwhelm in large-group scenarios like Raids and Zergs. 900 range single-target is not enough to safely or effectively engage an enemy zerg. I don't personally do large pve outside the occasional world-event, but I can imagine similar problems there. Even then though, its possible the on-demand healing at current numbers will be good enough to circumvent that.

 

There's a lot of problems with the other thief specializations that I'd rather have fixed before adding a new one, but I can't deny that Specter is pretty solidly functional and carves out a unique niche in the game. Engineer med-kit could learn a thing or two from this spec.

That's a good point. I baseline my build towards a moving fight then specialize lightly from there. Specter movement feels right around Rifle+? Deadeye level of fluid movement (a positive for me), with Daredevil and a couple of kits feeling most natural but it does have some troubleshooting issues. That 900 range on everything definitely hurt some and Wells kind of need a second stage option to Shadowstep to it or not along with making Shadow Shroud 3 feel more like Unhindered Combatant. 

9 hours ago, Gunther Clone C.6742 said:

Skills don't always activate when in action camera mode "Need a target to se this skill" when I have a target selected.  Also, when an ally is targeted in action cam, using skills overrides the target to the nearest available enemy to ally target.

I'm still feeling out Specter but on other specs some skills and actions need different camera orientations. Some pathing skills need me to pan camera to level out, almost like a top down angled view will dig me down into the terrain or something. Others, like some arched and blink Shadowsteps need me to pan camera to angle down, but I have to really guestimate the radius I need between me and the curser which is always hit or miss anyway.

Edited October 30, 2021 by kash.9213

[Thon.3780]

It seem op when match with torment or chrono rune. Very stable / sustain.
it work well for pve. 

[Sons.5493]

After running specter in different PvE groups I'm really liking it, I think its the spec thief needed. I only have one problem: Consume Shadows.

 

Consume shadows is way too strong to the point that is absolutely not worth doing anything in shroud in Pve, except maybe cast mind shock and instantly leave shroud which in turns devalue all of the shroud skills.

The idea of consume shadows is to sacrifice your shadow force for aoe healing, I think a decent way to translate this to a more interactive iteration would be to make consume shadows tether you to 4 targets and increase the healing you do while in shroud while at the same time making it consume more shroud. You still get to enjoy the shroud and provide aoe healing while at the same time giving this trait a more active approach, do I wanna cleanse conditions? Do I wanna give barrier? Do I wanna heal? Do I wanna stay in shroud the whole duration of mindshock to give party stability? As it stand right now you just dip in an out insta for an insane heal and its not really interactive.

I also think this change would open more possibilities for WvW zerging because as it stands right now Specter healing in Large scale fights has a hard time finding its place.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Sons.5493

[Tails.9372]

8 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

How is bringing up benchmarks ... irrelevant to or deflection

It's a deflection because it does nothing to actually addressing the point I was making. The examples he brought up had all more single target damage and most of them where excelling in other areas on top of it. Which isn't much of a surprise as he wasn't actually trying to argue that specter in solo scenarios wasn't underperforming.

8 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

That's some serious mental gymnastics.

No, the "mental gymnastics" here is avoiding / misrepresenting the argument and you're guilty of that as well.as:

8 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

You literally said, and I quote "the average for DPS focused builds is around 40k". When there are only 5 builds at 40k DPS pretty much exactly, 3 of them being unrealistic in actual gameplay, and literally hundreds of builds sitting around ~30-37k DPS, then that's just factually wrong. 

I said "around 40k" and not "40k and above" which is a huge difference, one you continuously choose to ignore. I also said "DPS focused builds" and your "hundreds of builds sitting around ~30-37k DPS" are also shifting their focus towards other things than just single target damage so ofc. you would expect them to have less and if something is sitting around 30k while not having anything else going on for it than that would be underperforming too.

8 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

But even if 40k were the average, Specter would still be overperfroming with it's over 44k DPS (without any ally targeting/Rot Wallow Venom shenanigans). 

Which still relies on something that requires allies but is not a result of their support in order to reach these numbers which makes it irrelevant for what I was talking about.

8 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Anyway, not derailing this Thread further.

Yeah I would hope people in their responses would actually focus on the for the spec relevant feedback that was provided.

 

1 hour ago, Sons.5493 said:

Consume shadows is way too strong to the point that is absolutely not worth doing anything in shroud in Pve

No, it's not that Consume Shadows is too strong but it's the other options that are too weak which makes Consume Shadows the only thing worth going for.

If Shadow Shroud was actually good and not clunky to use then there would be a proper trade-off for Consume Shadows but as of right now Shadow Shroud just does a poor job at making you want to maximize its uptime.

But the other trait options are also to blame here, Shallow Grave falls short because you can't re-sustain yourself in Shadow Shroud and in general relies too much on Shadow Shroud being good to work and Second Opinion is just overall not worth it as Consume Shadows is already the "more healing" trait and the self sustain you get by boosting up your own healing power is nothing to write home about either. If it was something like "+10-20% Incoming Heal Effectiveness" and "the barrier, healing and boons scepter skills grant by ally targeting are also applied to the player when targeting an enemy" then it would actually be competitive.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Quells.2498]

I really don't like that the wells teleport the Specter to enemies. It just doesn't mesh with the use of a ranged support weapon..

[Tails.9372]

3 minutes ago, Quells.2498 said:

I really don't like that the wells teleport the Specter to enemies. It just doesn't mesh with the use of a ranged support weapon..

Yeah, only the support focused wells should double as a shadow step.

[Jtoon.6907]

6 minutes ago, Quells.2498 said:

I really don't like that the wells teleport the Specter to enemies. It just doesn't mesh with the use of a ranged support weapon..

I actually like the wells teleporting because it gives a lot of mobility. 

[AquaBR.9250]

On 10/26/2021 at 8:38 PM, RyuDragnier.9476 said:

Don't think it's meant to be a power spec, too much support and condi traits. Sadly you'll probably have to stick with DD for the power spec.

No elite spec should be meant to be only one thing, in the way the game is built you only make a elite spec no viable build for both damage types if you don't want, take mechanist as and example, 3 traits each tier, three condi, three power, and three support, you choose want you want to play, and if i want to make a power specter and play it in open world i should be able to

[Sons.5493]

55 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

 

 

No, it's not that Consume Shadows is too strong but it's the other options that are too weak which makes Consume Shadows the only thing worth going for.

If Shadow Shroud was actually good and not clunky to use then there would be a proper trade-off for Consume Shadows but as of right now Shadow Shroud just does a poor job at making you want to maximize its uptime.

But the other trait options are also to blame here, Shallow Grave falls short because you can't re-sustain yourself in Shadow Shroud and in general relies too much on Shadow Shroud being good to work and Second Opinion is just overall not worth it as Consume Shadows is already the "more healing" trait and the self sustain you get by boosting up your own healing power is nothing to write home about either. If it was something like "+10-20% Incoming Heal Effectiveness" and "the barrier, healing and boons scepter skills grant by ally targeting are also applied to the player when targeting an enemy" then it would actually be competitive.

I mean i don't disagree with you that the other traits are slightly underwhelming, specially the top one but consume shadows is super super super strong, you sre pumping 27k heal/barriers with the double press of a button, a button that's also your main spec mechanic, you see how that can be a design flaw? It promotes skipping shroud and that's fine maybe but I would very much prefer a trait that converts shroud into this massive healing moment by actively deciding what to do withing this window by assessing the situation instead of just double pressing f2 and go back to "spaming 3 and wells" 

[Asum.4960]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

It's a deflection because it does nothing to actually addressing the point I was making. The examples he brought up had all more single target damage and most of them where excelling in other areas on top of it. Which isn't much of a surprise as he wasn't actually trying to argue that specter in solo scenarios wasn't underperforming.

No, the "mental gymnastics" here is avoiding / misrepresenting the argument and you're guilty of that as well.as:

I said "around 40k" and not "40k and above" which is a huge difference, one you continuously choose to ignore. I also said "DPS focused builds" and your "hundreds of builds sitting around ~30-37k DPS" are also shifting their focus towards other things than just single target damage so ofc. you would expect them to have less and if something is sitting around 30k while not having anything else going on for it than that would be underperforming too.

Which still relies on something that requires allies but is not a result of their support in order to reach these numbers which makes it irrelevant for what I was talking about.

Yeah I would hope people in their responses would actually focus on the for the spec relevant feedback that was provided.

Yes, 30k is underperforming. 40k is overperforming. What's between that is how averages work, or where around the general DPS's considered meta are -  around 37k marking the current top tier of builds. 

 

That makes Specter good to fantastic "solo" and significantly OP and likely to be nerfed until release grouped. So I'm not quite sure what your point is, or why you consider your statement that it's underperforming "relevant feedback", but notes to the contrary supported by actual real numbers and benchmarks not.

[Jumpel.3972]

My concern on some skills/traits mostly from a PVP aspect :

 

Sc/X  :

- You can spam ally target healing in stealth without been reveal, it's fun but not healthy ==> They should remove our stealth when launch on an ally but with put reveal debuff

- #2  weakness on demand is nice but the healign part is underwhelming ==> Triple de Barrier and add fury on ally OR make it piercing both ally/enemy part

- #3 Sc/D direct damage is too hight for PVP ==> At least a nerf of 40% i would say (PVP only)

 

Shroud  :

- #1 make it an auto by default

- #2 too small radius ==> Up at least to 220-240

 

Wells  :

- Cast time feel a bit wierd, they are "ok" for 1/2s and 3/4s  but for the 1s .... ==>Change cast time of the healing well to 3/4s

 

Traits  :

- Tier 1 no dps choice 😞

- Larcenous Tourment is a bit underwhelming ==> Up the shroud bonus from 1/2 to 1

- Amplified Siphoning is a bit underwhelming ==> Up the shroud bonus from 10 to 15

- Traversing Dusk give to much Shadow force by spamming shadowstep ==> Reduce base Shadow force gain from 5 to 3 (PVP only)

- Amplified Siphoning is a bit underwhelming ==> Up the shroud bonus from 10 to 15

- Hungering Darkness feel to strong against condi ==> Up the cd from 1s to 2s OR up condi clean/transfert from 1 to 2 and cd from 1s to 3s (PVP only)

- Shadestep, i'm selffish and don't want to lose my barrier to give to ally 😞

Edited October 30, 2021 by Jumpel.3972

[Pomdepin.7068]

Here's my opinion on Specter.

 

Theme

I like the theme of Specter and its role as a support thief. I can see ally targeting being a problem with mouseclicks and in the heat of the action, where characters move all around.

 

Utilities

Wells are ok. The whole every boon/condi your allies/foes don't have are applied is a nice concept but not sure it's that useful as it becomes a bit random and needs people to stay in them for all pulses just for a few boons/condis. Doesn't feel very impactful to me.

 

Scepter

Scepter skills are good, nicely designed, feel fun and impactful enough. The S/P 3 is weird to me when teleports back/in but I might get used to it in the long run. I would have liked a leap or explosion finisher for skill 2 though, in order to add some more synergy with combo fields.

 

New Mechanics

My big issue with Specter revolves around its new mechanics that I really don't like.

* The new "Siphon" skill feels bad to use. It's just a skill with no animation that does various things at once. I don't know how to explain, but it feels as if I didn't do anything in terms of skill feedback. Also, it's useless on allies. Another bad thing is that it's really the biggest shadow force generation by far. I think we should be able to generate some more from other skills and less from this one.

* The Shadow Shroud feels extremely lackluster. I don't have this power impression to become something dangerous like on necro when I enter Shadow Shroud. Skills feel clunky, low impact on both allies and foes. I think they need to be reworked to feel more powerful, and make the Specter a greater threat/supporter while in this form. The only impactful way to use it currently is with the Consume Shadows trait that demands you to enter and exit it... So not to use it much. Flawed. Too bad because the idea is good and it looks amazing.

* The lower initiative pool feels terrible to me because it forces the Specter to use scepter as a weapon. All other weapons are way too initiative-hungry to be used effectively. Moreover, it locks thieves into the Trickery traitline yet again to get more initiative. I just don't understand why they had to lower the ini pool...

 

Traits

I have not played too much with build possibilities, but some traits feels just too good not to take like Consume Shadows. Otherwise, I think some synergies can be made with other traitlines as well. I'll say again that Trickery is mandatory for Specter to me, which lowers the choices you have for build diversity. I would have liked more traits to improve the Shroud skills like on necro, and also shadow force generation.

 

Overall, I think Specter has potential and is based on a good idea. Some things have to be changed for me to be able to enjoy it, namely the Shadow Shroud, the Initiative Pool, the Shadow Force generation and the ally targeting system.

In this state, I'd give it a 6/10. Slightly above average.

[Tails.9372]

36 minutes ago, Sons.5493 said:

I mean i don't disagree with you that the other traits are slightly underwhelming, specially the top one but consume shadows is super super super strong, you sre pumping 27k heal/barriers with the double press of a button, a button that's also your main spec mechanic, you see how that can be a design flaw?

Well if you are sacrificing your main spec mechanic than you should be able to expect a very good trade-off (remember you need to sacrifice the whole thing at full to get the maximum payoff). I also don't see this as a design flaw as I don't think Shadow Shroud being this expendable is intentional, at least not on a conceptual level. I feel like that if Shadow Shroud would actually be strong and something you want to be in as much as possible then the gains from Consume Shadows wouldn't feel as over the top and a lot more justifiable than they currently are.

17 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Yes, 30k is underperforming. 40k is overperforming. What's between that is how averages work, or where around the general DPS's considered meta are -  around 37k marking the current top tier of builds. 

No, this is not how it works at all. 30k is only underperforming for a DPS focused build but if it does anything else on top of it (like really good CC and AoE damage) than 30 would not nessesarly be underperforming. That you should be able to expect higher numbers for the specter because it's still so single target focused is something the devs even said it during their reveal stream.

18 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

That makes Specter good to fantastic "solo" and significantly OP and likely to be nerfed until release grouped.

??? just proclaiming it to be "good to fantastic" without even bothering to actually make an argument as for why does nothing to further your point.

22 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

So I'm not quite sure what your point is, or why you consider your statement that it's underperforming "relevant feedback", but notes to the contrary supported by actual real numbers and benchmarks not.

Ofc. you don't because you are, for some reason, hellbent to ignore the bigger picture and only focus on single target numbers which resulted from something you already correctly identified as completely unrealistic.