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Specter Feedback Thread


Fire Attunement.9835

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As a terse response, I won't be playing this over my DD.  Isn't quick, isn't powerful, doesn't have near the Thief finesse and mobility that the other specs have.  Best way to describe the spec as it stands is something you mothball and take out when you're bored and want to annoy people with your autoattack sounds.

Edited by Borked.6824
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25 minutes ago, Borked.6824 said:

As a terse response, I won't be playing this over my DD.  Isn't quick, isn't powerful, doesn't have near the Thief finesse and mobility that the other specs have.  Best way to describe the spec as it stands is something you mothball and take out when you're bored and want to annoy people with your autoattack sounds.

It needs to be able to provide itself the support it gives others, otherwise it's pretty squishy and wont be supporting anyone while dead. This is what Scourge has been capable of and why everyone uses them.

Edited by Doggie.3184
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Right, after having played this spec for about an hour solo and an hour in big meta events, here are my thoughts:

 

Before I start voicing my feedback I want to say that I thoroughly enjoyed the spec, and it is likely that I will be maining it in EOD.

 

  • The spec doesn't feel like a thief. It feels like a glamor mesmer and a corruption necro had a baby and then gave it a batman utility belt. I don't consider this a bad thing, because mesmer, necro and thief are my three favorite classes, and I don't really feel like an elite specialization has to feel exactly like the base class. But I can imagine that loyal thief mains might not enjoy the specter.
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  • The shroud does not feel very powerful. It feels like it's something that you sit in while your initiative recovers because it has cooldown-based attacks. It doesn't feel like a big payout shapeshift, but just kind of something that you vibe in until you can go back to spamming your scepter 3 skill.
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  • The consume shadows trait is too strong. Far too strong. I like the design of "build up shadow power and blow it all up as a big potion", but I feel like this trait gives way too much payout to playstyles that do the opposite. I've played in two ways: Burn up all my initiative on Twilight Combo and then sit in shroud until my initiative regenerates (rinse, repeat) and the other way was just use shadow bolt and endless night to support others and just quickly toggle shroud every 6 seconds for the consume shadows heal. Both of these playstyles do not feel like they are what consume shadows wants to cater to, yet both of these playstyles were getting a 8-12k AOE heal out of it every 6-10 seconds (and in a party this would come with 5 torment stacks because of rot wallow venom).
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  • I feel like the spec lacks combo finishers. It has very easy access to smoke and dark fields, but the only way that it can make use of them is shroud 2 and shroud 5.
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  • I see zero use-cases for the scepter 2 skill. Both of the dual-wield skills are so incredibly good that I don't see why I would ever spend initiative on something this mediocre.
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  • I see zero use-cases for well of tears. I know that people often want a specialization to be able to be played in both power and condition styles, but since this is a scepter spec and already neck-deep into conditions I think that it's best to commit and ditch the power well altogether.
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  • Well of silence is niche but interesting. I would like to see a "Foes that already have all conditions will be inflicted with XYZ" on this too. Not sure what, but it feels like I should be rewarded for interrupting somebody who already has all 4 statuses.
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  • I'm not sure how I feel about the forwards shadowstep on measured shot. I feel like teleporting into the fray is the last thing I would want to do before starting to channel a quickness beam.
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  • The scepter stealth attack feels underwhelming. Both versions of it do. It's the type of thing where I would be happy with getting it randomly, but I would not spec for it or spend initiative on it that I could have spent on a 3 skill instead.

 

Personally I would make the following changes to the spec:

 

  • Well of tears gets replaced
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  • Scepter 2 gets a rework. I feel like to even give this niche-use, it would have to be a projectile finisher and also it would have to blow up and hit multiple entities around my target. Either that or take the shadowstep idea from measured shot and work it into a new 2 skill.
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  • Shroud 3 becomes a leap finisher, and shroud 1 gets a stealth attack version. This would let the specter make much better use of its combo fields and would also make it feel more like a thief.
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  • Consume shadows either gets a 30 second cooldown, or the healing gained becomes a second order polynomial instead of linear (so using it on 10% shadow power makes the heal 1% effective, using it on 50% power makes it 25% effective, and at 100% power it gets full effect). If you do not rework or remove this talent before launch then it will 100% become a problem down the line.
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  • The scepter stealth attack needs some more payout. Maybe like buffing an ally with protection and/or resistance, and upping the duration on the poison stacks.
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  • Well of silence gets an effect that happens when the enemy already has all 4 conditions. Either some damage or maybe a blind/immobilize.
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35 minutes ago, Doggie.3184 said:

It needs to be able to provide itself the support it gives others, otherwise it's pretty squishy and wont be supporting anyone while dead. This is what Scourge has been capable of and why everyone uses them.

Yeah. I really dont understand the logic behind the execution of this spec. First you only really support one ally… but you dont really get anything from doing that. 

Meanwhile, Scourge, Tempest, Druid and Firebrand can suppport the  team and make themselves a bunker at the same time. 

Damage is also negligible. 

This is something that might end up being completely reworked after the expac comes out. Its so bad right now. 

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Now that I've had some more time to play the spec, I have to say I really do enjoy it. It provides much needed utility and a new playstyle and it might be my favorite elite spec released so far.

 

Some changes I'd like, from a casual pve and pvp perspective:

- Scepter 2 feels underwhelming and redundant. I'd like to see a small aoe version of the skill to differentiate it more from the AA.

-The shadowstep on the Sc/P 3 feels awkward and unnecessary. I am not trying to get close to my ally to heal since I can comfortably do that at range and the teleport away from an enemy feels very erratic and unpredictable. I've played staff mesmer in pvp for years but I have yet to be able to come even close to the reliability of staff 2. Just remove the shadowstep and maybe put it on a reworked scepter 2.

-Sc/D 3 feels VERY clunky and buggy. Half the time, the second faster shot does not happen, leaving me with a lot of wasted initiative and a disappointing blue slice on my screen. It also pales in comparison to the Sc/P 3 in terms of utility but doesn't provide a large enough boost in dmg output to justify it imo.

-The shadowstep of the elite well I feel should be 900 range. 600 range for the elite just feels a bit meh.

 

Closing thoughts:

-there are quite a few bugs, the damage output seems low even for an elite spec and some of the animations feel clunky, but these issues will be ironed out eventually. 

-I love the spec and can't wait to play it for real.

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I only did a bit of messing around of the Specter but I really love the idea and can't wait to play it for real! This is the first time since the game released I've wanted to really play Thief!

 

I think having so much single target could be an issue with it since while the single target heal is strong it means you will need to either focus on one target or get good at quickly swapping between targets. If the auto attack was weaker but pierced and hit three targets similar to the duel skill with pistol that could help alleviate some only healing one person issue. Maybe do the same with shroud, make it weaker but have three tethers? This would mean applying more venom though so I guess that would also need to be made a bit weaker?

 

The duel skill for dagger also feel like it is much worse than the pistol one. It costs less initiative and is faster since it is one skill that isn't a channel but the pistol duel skill feels like it is always the superior option. Dagger dual skill is single target while the pistol dual skill can hit three targets and gives a lot of quickness, why wouldn't I want to use the pistol one?

 

This is more of a question, but does the venom Specter puts on allies when healing them count as a venom for the venom life steal trait? I think it does but it's really hard to tell and the game doesn't give any indication to whether or on it is giving the life steal damage and healing.

 

Also probably being worked on but the game seems super conflicted with how it interprets at least some NPCs. Using skills on Lion's Arch NPCs doesn't heal them but also only triggers some of the steal effects. The scepter in general is really wonky when using abilities on them and in the case of the dagger dual skill totally breaks the projectile.

 

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I agree pretty much you can't help if you die too fast and those heals, barrier, boons, etc should also be applied to the specter and not just the player you are trying to protect.

It would be nice if we also got constant barrier, heals etc not a lot but something to keep us alive. Specter is targeted and easily killed in fights they are focused especially by rangers or if you want to live you have to run away or fall back from the fight cause the one you are protecting is in the middle of the battle - but you cant be there cause you will die way to fast.

It is okay in PVE but in WvW it is terrible and to switch from enemy and back is an issue cause you have to get in the middle of the battle to help them but will die cause I am healing, providing boons, barrier and yet not applied to me even half the amount would be great. If you team up with a ranger then specter = ranger's new pet called specter.

 

Specter needs at least half of the buff we apply to the players and this build we are stuck with Trickery and Shadow Arts.  The loss of the initiative to now be less and does not help when taking Acrobatics to try to get some regeneration but end up with typing 1's cause we ran out of ini or have to use Shadow Shroud or Siphon to try to stay alive as I try to stay in the front line with the commander and the shadow force seems to be getting it slower. Today I will be testing in WvW how fast I can get this Shadow Force so when its needed I have it.

Matter of fact the old Boon Thief did a better job before it got nerfed. Also 33% for Consume Shadows should be greater to the specter and keep it at 33% for allied targets cause trying to get shadow force to refill is slow or keep it at 33% but at least give us half the barrier and heals I am providing to my players. Again these new builds seem to be PVE focused and harder to play in WvW and from what I am reading in PvP.

Edited by killforbeers.7534
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44 minutes ago, Delgato.9015 said:

Sc/D 3 feels VERY clunky and buggy. Half the time, the second faster shot does not happen, leaving me with a lot of wasted initiative and a disappointing blue slice on my screen. It also pales in comparison to the Sc/P 3 in terms of utility but doesn't provide a large enough boost in dmg output to justify it imo.

I won’t object to your comment on the clunkiness and the buggy nature of the skill, because yes sometimes (twilight combo) sc/d #3 just doesn’t come out, or misses the target entirely, if they move to suddenly. But to say the damage also pales compared to sc/p that’s just not true my man. Twilight combo does a boat load of damage 😵💫

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What I want looked at and possibly changed

-Velocity increase for twilight combo 

-Add additional Tracking on twilight combo 

-Rework of shroud skills (especially the easily telegraphed 5 Stun skill) 

-Stealth attack needs to actually do something useful (doesn’t hit hard, doesn’t CC, doesn’t apply any meaningful condition that you don’t already apply with an AA. 

-Sc/p 3 needs functionality improvement or just a rework in general

-sc/p & sc/d both need better #2 weapon skill options (maybe a leap or teleport, or something more utility based)

-Wells needs some type of stun break

-The spec needs more combo finishers and projectile finishers besides going into shroud

-I feel as though that healing trait in the major adept 1st slot can be changed to a minor and we can get another trait to occupy that. Preferably something to do with power. Like… at least give us 1 power trait option lol.

-Fix the delay between our hidden thief trait and our Healing Well utility

EDIT (10/28)- Get rid of that Siphon (Steal) line of sight/Valid path requirement. 

EDIT (10/28)- Shroud 3 needs to track. Way too many times I’m targeting someone and it just goes a completely different direction even while facing towards them

EDIT (10/28)- Twilight combo needs to be able to pierce enemies or hit multiple enemies in a cone.

 

*I’ll update this post more as I remember them*

Edited by AikijinX.6258
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I strongly dislike the need to target allies with scepter skills on spectre. It feels bad and gw2 was always designed around explicitly not needing to.

It's fine on siphon/tether but all the other single target ally skills should instead autotarget the ally with the lowest health if your skill did not or will not hit an enemy.

Also give spectre some condi short bow synergy. Specter shouldn't be shoehorned into scepter only and I don't think sb gets any actual use as a condi weapon despite having bleed on the autoattack. Plus SB is a fun weapon to use.

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Not gonna lie, I had very low expectations of "scepter thief," and the idea of giving thief well skills seemed doomed to failure.  Nevertheless, I did promise to give it the ol' college try, and geared one up for a test run out in the Crystal Oasis, where Veteran Fire Hydras, roaming bands of Forged, and hostile desert fauna are all too happy to "stress test" whatever you throw at them.  On balance, I was genuinely and pleasantly surprised; it's very different, but not in any particularly bad way.  I suspect thief enthusiasts might outright hate it since it's not another dps-heavy variant, but as a multi-toon player who generally laments the profession's pigeon holing into "glass canon" status, this was a welcome change of pace.

Thief already has multiple builds and the two prior elite specs exploring every way a thief can burst down an enemy, so it certainly feels strange to play a thief which doesn't seem to hit very hard even with Berserker or Viper stats.  However,  it still leans heavily into the aspect of thief being stealthy and highly mobile.   Specter seems to have been very well thought out with the goal of filling in the holes in its current abilities while still being more or less true to its core concept.  In particular, it's a much more survivable and "party friendly" thief; it'll be the one preventing other players from going down for a change.  Some players hate that it's actually more effective when running with allies, but I actually appreciate that thieves can have an option to harness that kind of group synergy.

So the basics:

-Weapon:  Scepter as a weapon does feel a bit out of place for a thief, but it does fill a mid-range niche.  Admittedly the weakest new feature, and the one I'd soonest abandon.  However, I did enjoy using the stealth attack Shadow Squall.  If there is any apparent advantage to scepter over other weapons (especially the pistol), it's the zero initiative cost, increasing the frequency with which off-hand weapon skills can be used--such as the off hand dagger skill Cloak and Dagger to inflict vulnerability and enter stealth, which creates the opportunity to unload a Shadow Squall.

-Core mechanics:  Siphon is an interesting variation of Steal, although it doesn't reliably auto-target as advertised, and picking out a specific priority target in a group is perhaps needlessly difficult.  Shadow Shroud provides a nice suite of skills for providing support and condi.  Having what amounts to a swappable toolkit adds some welcome variety into what a thief can do while in combat.

-Utility skills:  Admittedly, Wells are not a utility skill I would have thought to be suitable for a thief.  After all, a thief can't hang stick around in one place very long.  However, the specter's Well skills solve that problem by turning them all into opportunities to Shadow Step.  Very nice!  It's basically a mesmer's Blink with benefits, times five and (mostly) with shorter cooldowns.  That, and thieves have previously had to rely on cleave or rapid sequential burn-downs when it came to trash mobs (Pocket Raptors come to mind); wells give thieves more access to aoe skills and fold them neatly into an improved sustain game.  Granted, they're not as offensively powerful as a daredevil's Bound (traited dodge attack), but they make up for it in their support benefits both running solo and in groups.

-Traits:  The team support options are much more robust than any previous thief trait line, and condi thieves become just a bit more viable.  There also seems to be reasonably good synergy with existing trait lines, particularly Shadow Arts.

On balance, very well done!  Naturally, I would prefer it be a bit more viable as a condi dps option, but that might just be a matter of my tweaking the trait options a bit more optimally.  I'm noticing specter has no built-in way to quickly recover from stun/knock down AFTER it happens, so adding a stun break to one or more of the wells would make it a bit better rounded and play to its intended strength as a more support-oriented elite.  Other players have gone into much greater detail, but I'm pretty happy with specter as-is; a little more damage and some stun-breaking would just be a good way to address many of the valid complaints without having to go very far into the weeds of precision game balance.

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I'm not done testing the Specter, but some issues I've come across so far.

 

Issues:

- When "Snap Ground Target to Current Target" option is enabled, wells doesn't function correctly. I think it conflicts with the Ground Targeting: Instant option. Normally, when there is a target, Ground Targetting: Instant is overridden by Snap Ground to target.

- When "Action Camera" is enabled, target becomes invalid when using Endless Night (Scepter #3). Measured Shot works on the same target.

- Measured Shot does not indicate when target is out of range and it can teleport more than the max 900 from target depending on the terrain.

- Scepter auto-attack doesn't cancel when going in stealth causing an unintended Reveal. Seriously, projectile in flight should not cause Reveal. I rather have them deal no damage (auto-miss since projectile turns into shadows/smoke) than cause Reveal.

 

Tooltips:

- Well of Gloom applies stealth granted by Concealing Restoration (trait) but doesn't indicate it in the tool tip.

- Dark Sentry  ally heal is not boosting Merciful Ambush or Shadow Savior (traits) and Shadow Refuge (utility). Not sure if this is just a tooltip, it's difficult to check.

- Panaku's Ambition doesn't show in Shadow Portal (utility) and Shadow's Refuge (utility).

 

Useless Traits:

- Shallow Grave -- this trait should do something rather than just wait until someone dies. Until someone goes down, this trait is useless. This is a repackaged Last Refuge trying to creep back into the game. This functionality shouldn't be in the game.

- Dark Sentry -- this trait is useless without a target ally. Rot Wallow should apply to any target you give barrier to, included yourself.

 

Useless Skill:

- Well of Tears -- this is just sad that it makes me cry. Compare to Well of Sorrow, why bother with this skill? If it applies stacking vulnerability AND immobilize, then it has some uses, but currently it's meh. Pitfall deals overall more damage due to the 3s KD and the big initial damage. When Well of Tears is used, no initial damage so if your target dodged...well, SOL. Nothing is keeping them inside the well.

 

Suggestion:

- Well of Gloom -- this skill should also grant Swiftness to ally even for a short duration.

- Shroud Aesthetic -- When my Necro goes into Shroud, the screen border change to dark green ooze. Where is the border aesthetic for Shadow Shroud? A smokey shadow border would be a nice visual to remind the Specter that they are in the Shroud.

 

That's all I got so far.

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On 10/26/2021 at 11:39 AM, BobbyT.7192 said:

Big note

Improvisation does nothing

Edit: seems inconsistent, i do get a recharge on one skill, but rarely happens

popping in and out of shroud doesn't do it, something to do with using the actually shroud skills maybe?

You have to use F1 to trigger Improv. I've been testing this all day and I do get a recharge -- it's just hard to notice if you carry wells since there's only 2s difference between well's CD and Siphon's CD and even shorter when there's Alacrity. With the loss of stolen items, there's no need for Improv.

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First impressions:

1. Weapons. I like scepter, especially scepter/dagger - this seems more the condi and general support weapon. Scepter/pistol is a bit more odd (to me), it feels more like the mobile support + quickness weapon with the extra (totally necessary, cough lol) shadowsteps, but it really could use a 4 target cap on the quickness from the chain skill on #3. I can live with not getting self quickness but it's a real downer not being able to give quickness to the fourth party member in Fractals. The duration is very generous if you get a full beam cast off, especially with boon duration, perhaps a bit too generous - I could live with a slight reduction if it meant being able to give the entire party quickness at the same time instead of having to micromanage who I left out the first time (especially if everyone is dancing around in a tight cluster). I can live with just the quickness being 4 man even if the rest stays 3 man - I'm okay with healing and barrier being more focused but with essential boons (that are anyway aoe) it's nice not to have a man left out in small groups. But this was more a minor issue for me since, again, the durations are very generous.

 

2. Shadow Force. The gain on siphon feels a little steep for an ability I anyway use off CD, conversely the gain from initiative use feels a little scant. Even blasting out initiative skills earns me very little so it is almost wholly down to waiting on Siphon recharge and this pushes the Trickery traitline even more. I'd like to see the gain from Siphon reduced a little bit and the gain from spending initiative increased a little bit. Larcenous Torment (lol at the name) helps a bit but even then the chain skill on scepter/pistol #3 (the channeled beam) is really the only place where it generates a lot, I scarcely notice it on scepter/dagger #3 which did surprise me. I'm good with siphon providing a decent bump and skills(/torment) being a slower source, but as it stands at the moment I barely feel the force gains from initiative(/most torment sources) by the time I'm in shroud thanks to siphon casts. Imo this needs addressing.

 

3. Conditions. The class is a little torment heavy off of mainhand pistol, it has good access to on-demand poison which is nice as it synergises with the Deadly Arts trait but I'd like to see some more bleeds here and there. This is another minor issue for me as I guess bleeds would push Trickery more (although that traitline anyway needs to be addressed so it's hard to judge, right now it's default for almost every build), but as it stands it's a bit onesided with torment. Shroud #2 at least could've used some bleeds for flavour.

 

4. Shadow Shroud. Enjoyable but does not feel super rewarding, it has some nice abilities but with support Specter I feel it's better to go in then exit immediately for Consume Shadows and with condition Specter it mostly helps me apply more torment + top up on other boons, nothing exciting apart from barrierfear and stabstun after which I'll anyway duck out of shroud unless I need it to stack torment for me on a condition build. I'm not sure how to remedy this. It's good but it doesn't blow me away.

No matter its final form, Shroud #1 could use being set to autocast by default.

 

5. Aesthetics and sound. I love this espec aesthetic, with one exception: Shroud skill #1. What in the name of skritt is that? We fire off these tiny projectiles all of a sudden, total contrast to the big balls of shadow magic we hurl with scepter, and the sound... just sounds off for casting shadow magic, as if we're shooting enemies with a gun (a weaker sounding gun, more a peashooter than the actual pistols we have). Other than that I love this espec's aesthetic.

 

6. Slot skills. I love wells so can't really go wrong here and these wells have interesting mechanics, what I'm not such a fan of is the boring Well of Tears that does power damage and that's all folks. I'm not sure what it's doing on a spec geared towards condi or support so I don't really understand this one's inclusion.

As far as the condition wells go, the main flaw I see with them is they tend to apply conditions you already have easy access to - for Well of Silence with scepter you have easy access to weakness on #2, chilled on #3 with dagger and cripple on #4 with dagger (or on Shadow Shroud #2 or the well heal aka Well of Gloom), and Slow you anyway have extremely easy access to on siphon (along with having more weakness and chilled on Shadow Shroud #4). If you take Deadly Arts (standard for condition builds) you inflict weakness whenever you inflict poison (Lotus Poison), which coupled with Serpent's Touch, Deadly Ambition and Panic Strike means siphon, any/all dual wield skills and immobilises (eg scepter/pistol #3) can refresh weakness. Shortbow #3 if taken as a secondary provides crippled too. This largely reduces this skill to more torment stacking.

For Well of Sorrow it gets even worse as again, you have truckloads of Torment, bleeds you can get from pistol MH but I guess it has some value for double scepter MH builds, meanwhile poison you can once again get from scepter/dagger #3 (or Shroud #4 on any build). With Deadly Arts (again, standard for condition builds) you get even more poison from siphon, any/all dual wield skills and from scepter/pistol #3 due to Serpent's Touch, Deadly Ambition and Panic Strike respectively. If you take shortbow as a secondary you have all the conditions to begin with - Torment from scepter or at the very least Shadow Shroud, along with poison and bleeds from shortbow. This again reduces the well to more torment stacking, so the same situation as with Well of Silence.

Maybe this is how ANet want condition Specter balanced, I just found it a bit odd that the boon well has a big emphasis on what boons are already in play and the condition ones seem to exist largely to pump out more torment. It wouldn't bother me if they stayed as is but I did find it odd, the higher priority for me is seeing the weird and largely useless Well of Tears go, I'd rather see a fourth well with interesting uses take its place.

 

7. Builds. I like the Specter traits a lot, although on condition builds I find it a little weird the Adept tier has no strict condition/offence trait (or at least a hybrid trait with some offensive use for strict condition builds). Don't get me wrong, I like the traits there, but it's odd they're all support and/or defence oriented. Beyond that, I find Strength of Shadows a bit weird, as it increases the torment from Rot Wallow Venom but on a strictly condition build you're targeting enemies and it doesn't seem to proc off of self barrier? I can see it working for hybrids but I don't see it being very satisfying for pure condi DPS if it stays this way.

In general: Trickery feels mandatory again, as it is on almost every thief build already, due to Kleptomaniac (ini sustain so very important) and Preparedness (opening burst, imo secondary to Klepto but handy for phases etc.). This together with Trickery upping bleed damage for condition builds and in general providing lower siphon CDs means once again Thief feels locked into this traitline. I'd at least like to see Kleptomaniac and Preparedness be added to base Thief and then adjusted from there, as it stands at present not taking them gimps your burst and your ini sustain which we have few other ways of augmenting. I felt this even harder on Specter with the lower initiative pool.

Healing builds more specifically: In Shadow Arts the synergy Leeching Venoms seems to lack with Rotwallow Venom (hopefully an oversight) pushes you to take the heal on shadowstep trait and that alone, which is a shame as it'd be neat to have a lifesteal alternative to the heal on shadowstep (Shadow Saviour) builds. On separate note, I was hoping Acrobatics might be an option/alternative for Spectre, but the traits from that line are too selfish for group support (apart from boon duration which imo isn't enough to warrant taking over Shadow Arts and even less so over Trickery), I'd love to see these traits get some more party oriented components to give support Thief more options. Also it'd help Acrobatics find a niche that isn't just inferior Daredevil or Shadow Arts but with less stealth and utility.

Edited by Drakonhammer.2148
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52 minutes ago, Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

You have to use F1 to trigger Improv. I've been testing this all day and I do get a recharge -- it's just hard to notice if you carry wells since there's only 2s difference between well's CD and Siphon's CD and even shorter when there's Alacrity. With the loss of stolen items, there's no need for Improv.

To much to ask for shroud skill to turninto ammo skills eh? Lol

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Some feedback after spending an unholy amount of time on it yesterday. Context: I played both full support (Minstrel) and full condi (Trailblazer). Have yet to try any hybridized stats. I am also not a Thief main so keep that in mind. I have barely touched the class in four years so am trying to get the hang of it again.

 

 

INITIAL THOUGHTS ON VIABILITY

 

As a condi roamer in WvW, it felt very strong and like a pretty solid pick. Not the strongest of roaming builds by any means, but a good option nonetheless. Playing an offensive dps-centric build felt more "complete" and polished than playing a full support build. It seemed to scale poorly in larger fights, but this is unsurprising given how the spec was designed, and even still, having the shroud skills did increase its teamfight potential a bit. Additionally, it was nice to still be full TB and pump barrier to allies. Is this a good or a bad thing for balance? Not too sure, but it made the spec feel versatile since the base values are all very solid (though the modifiers are consequently on the lower side).

 

As a support, it seemed to be pretty alright. Still largely eclipsed by FB/Scrapper/Tempest, but I think that's territory that's just not worth trying to cross because it would change too much of how this spec is designed (and also Scrapper support is *massively* overtuned for WvW and will eclipse all other secondary support options until it receive further nerfs). In large scale it seems like the playstyle is to try to use shadowsteps to build up shroud in order to blow all your juice for Consume Shadows. In small scale, this spec fits in much better but I would still not really ever take it over other options. in terms of playstyle though? It is very fun and unique and fits the sort of "roaming healer" niche that I have always wanted. 

 

 

INITIATIVE TRADEOFF

 

The initiative pool felt totally fine when using scepter with the current initiative tuning, but I'm not too sure about how it would feel without playing scepter. I mained Thief back before the new obsession of increasing the initiative costs for everything, so that is still taking some getting used to for me. Trickery feels like even more of a lock now, which was already mandatory for most builds in PvP/WvW.

 

 

SCEPTER

 

Scepter is such a cool weapon. Really happy with how it has been implemented and how it functions with the duality to it. Scepters are one of my favorite weapon types so I can't tell you how stoked I was to see Thief get it. Will probably finally make Xiuquatl now that I know the weapon is not a dud.

  • Autoattack chain seems fine. Don't think there are really any issues on either end of it in terms of functionality. The sound effect is very jarring--wish it were less "warehousey" sounding and more...ghastly/spooky? Visuals are beautiful though.
  • Scepter 2 (Shadow Sap) seems to lack....purpose? It's hard to really justify using it when the dual skills just feel better. I found myself using it at times if using sc/p to apply barrier to my allies so I could avoid porting in closer to danger, but I still can't help but feel like it needs something. If they don't want to add any damaging conditions to it, then perhaps a blind? For allies I would recommend that it cleanses 1 condition for them. IMO that would make it worth using over the dual skills as it gives it a different purpose, and would make the weapon feel less spammy.
  • Scepter/Pistol dual skills (Measured Shot/Endless Night) both felt great. The skills are both incredibly versatile and carry impact while also having enough counterplay with Endless Night being a long channel. My only complaint is how buggy they both are when used on allies. Measured Shot will at times port you far away from your ally (seems to happen when up close) and Endless Night will often fail if used when an ally is too close or moving around too much. Would be nice if Endless Night was more forgiving in being able to be channeled from behind after a certain period in order to allow the allied cast to fully succeed. 
  • Scepter/Dagger dual skill (Twilight Combo) felt okay. I spent like 90% of my time on sc/p so I can't really give too much feedback on sc/d but it just didn't seem to have the impact that sc/p does. Dueled a full power Specter using sc/d a few times and got wrecked, so perhaps it is just better for power/hybrid builds? I think that the allied portion seems to be just a bit undertuned and if that was addressed, would otherwise feel okay. Perhaps introduce a piercing or "boomerang" mechanic to it? It seemed to have okay tracking, but still seemed a bit buggy. I would use it sometimes on allies and the quick shot would fail to hit the arc, so it would just slowly float towards the ally. Kinda funny to see but unnecessarily clunky.

 

 

SHROUD

 

Removed. Want to test this more.

 

 

WELLS

 

The shadowstepping component of wells for Specter is both a positive and a negative. I am happy to accept this as a risk/reward component to the skills and I think they make the wells feel not only more unique, but also more fitting for Thief. 

 

Well of Tears is my biggest pain point with the wells. Specter seems to very clearly be focused on conditions, healing, and boon support, and this well feels like total filler. There are only 2 supportive wells and 1 is the healing skill, so it feels out of place and unfitting to have this one here. Please, convert this to something like this:

Well of Purging: Shadowstep to the target location and drop a well that converts conditions from allies to barrier. If allies have no conditions, grant barrier instead.

 

Aside from Well of Tears, I think the other wells have good design while still being straightforward. I would argue that the CD on Well of Silence is potentially too high in competitive (50s) and could be dropped down to 40.

 

 

TRAITS

 

Before getting into the Specter traits, I have to say that I was massively disappointed that there is no trait synergy between steal traits and Siphoning an ally (at least from what I tested). While I understand the cooldown for Siphon is incredibly low when using it on an ally, it feels really bad to have a traits do nothing. It doesn't need full potency from the traits per se, but there should be at least some synergy there. This is part of what makes Siphon feel like it's not worth it when used on an ally.

 

In terms of the actual Specter traitline, the bottom line is probably the most coherent and polished of all of the lines, allowing for AoE allied support. They are all impactful and I don't think they really need much changing. Well done on their design. 

 

The condition damage synergy within the line is a bit odd, to say the least. Larcenous Torment is great and brings solid sustained shroud gen. I was surprised there was no option for such in the adept line, and I find the grandmaster trait "Strength of Shadows" strange as it is focused heavily on Rot Wallow Venom, which is only for allies. Is a cDPS Specter intended to autoattack an ally on fights instead of the actual enemy? If so that is....unique and potentially interesting, but IMO this trait should be simplified and be made to be more selfish so it doesn't have to rely on an ally to maximize.

 

Why introduce a 300s CD trait into the game now?! Like, do you have no intention on fixing the other 300s CD traits already in the game? This gives me the impression that you don't. While the trait itself is cool in terms of its functionality, it is the same sort of passive lifesaving cheese that doesn't need to be in the game. Please just remove the trait, move the scepter down to the middle line, and introduce a condi trait in the adept line.

 

Amplified Siphoning may be a bit underperforming. Not sure of any context where I would choose this trait over the others. If this master line is for modifying shroud gain, perhaps approach it in a different way for this one. Could also just be a numbers thing.

 

Cleansing on Hungering Darkness is arguably overtuned, though this could be moreso an issue of the shroud CD starting upon entering shroud. It allows for massive self-condi cleanse.

 

 

CLOSING THOUGHTS

 

While far from perfect and still needing iteration and tuning, I am very happy with Specter. It is the most thoughtfully designed of all the EoD specs and has a lot of complexity to it that really make me love it. There's a lot of inherent versatility to the class and it seems to have a really high skill ceiling, which is a huge drawing factor for me. I applaud the devs for being innovative with their design approach for this spec and for daring to take a risk in playstyle for this. At this point, this will be my main spec in EoD unless the other specs get some major improvements.

Edited by Za Shaloc.3908
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My Feedback:

 

Dark Sentry

Apply Rot Wallow Venom to allies you grant barrier to. Outgoing healing to allies is increased.

For some reason, this trait does not give you a stack of Rot Wallow Venom when you apply Barrier to yourself, and it should. 

Please hear the logic why doing this would not be broken: Specters only have 3 sources of Barriers to self. 

1) Entering Stealth(with Panaku's Ambition trait, which only grants Barrier upon entering of Stealth)

2) Using a Stealth Attack(with Panaku's Ambition trait, which only grants Barrier once)

3) Dawn's Repose(which only grants Barrier once)

Then there are also possible Rune effects, which any Rune set out there only apply Barrier once by meeting very specific requirements. The sole exception is Rune of the Sanctuary, which can be disabled to work with Dark Sentry, just like it is currently disabled and does not work with Scourge's Abrasive Grit. 

So gaining just 1 stack of Rot Wallow Venom to yourself for the above uncommon occurrences would not be broken.

Ally should include Self.

 

Major Adept Choice

You first Major trait selection has NO non-support option. Yes I get that Specter was designed to be support, but it should be able to go DPS as well when you are playing content solo. 

Second Opinion should simply be changed from  

A portion of condition damage is converted to healing power. Gain healing power, which is increased while wielding a scepter.

to

A portion of condition damage is converted to healing power. Gain condition damage, which is increased while wielding a scepter.

 

Well of Tears

This has to be the most useless and uninspired skill a Specter can have. Specter isnt even designed to do power dps.

Give it something, a purpose, it can literally be anything.

Maybe add Life steal?

Maybe Corrupt boons like Necro's Well of Corruption? even just boon removal would give it a purpose.

Maybe Converts conditions like Necro's Well of Power? or even just condi cleanse.

Maybe make it give 1% Shadow Shroud every tick? or less than 1%.

 

Scepter Auto

The Scepter#1 auto is broken. It activates twice on the 3rd skill for whatever reason, which makes your attack like this:

Shadow Bolt > Double Bolt > Triple Bolt > Triple Bolt > Shadow Bolt ... etc

Also the 3rd skill is way too slow. 

1st Auto = 0.75s(1 projectile)

2nd Auto = 0.75s/2(2 projectiles) = 0.375s per

3rd Auto = 1.5s/3(3 projectiles) = 0.5s per

The 3rd Auto's cast should be reduced to either 1s/3 = 0.333s per, or 1.25s/3 = 0.417s per

There should also be a Projectile Finisher(or at least a 20% Projectile Finisher chance) on this as well.

 

Edited by Turtle Dragon.9241
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So far, it's very different isn't it. Fun? Hmm, it's different 🙂

It isn't as fast nor hectic, but I like the attempts to make something new (to me at least) with the spec. Some of it is clunky (shroud - maybe I'm just not using it right), and I'm not a fan of a spec that with "offensive" wells means you end up *in* said well - which is invariably where the enemy are doing their business. 

Likewise, you can get interrupted as the well shadow steps you in due to fields the targets are stood in.

As others mentioned, stun breaks are a requirement in this. Likewise, trying to switch to your squad/party/allies to do the alternative weapon attack (defence) is tricky.  Finding that I'm using the elite well as it's a good, but dropped the others for now though as I get more familiar maybe one will get slotted in again.

Disappointing to see no new underwater utility... all greyed out, so no changes there then <_< In fact, that sucks a fair amount. 

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3 hours ago, Velox.5340 said:

I strongly dislike the need to target allies with scepter skills on spectre. It feels bad and gw2 was always designed around explicitly not needing to.

It's fine on siphon/tether but all the other single target ally skills should instead autotarget the ally with the lowest health if your skill did not or will not hit an enemy.

Also give spectre some condi short bow synergy. Specter shouldn't be shoehorned into scepter only and I don't think sb gets any actual use as a condi weapon despite having bleed on the autoattack. Plus SB is a fun weapon to use.

I agree. This spec is very limiting when it comes to core weapons. Less initiative, which kinda makes you need Trickery (like with every thief build since launch.) 

You get one Shadowstep with SB pretty much. 

Would be nice if one the grandmaster traits give you initiative everytime you reach a stack of condition. Like 1 per 5s of bleed, 1 per 3s of poison, 1 per 3 stack of torment etc. 

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I've had a lot of fun testing this spec.  Honestly shadow stepping to wells is responsible for most of that fun.  Once I got it in my head that shroud is a defensive tool, I had more fun there too.  Also, out of initiative solo... time to shroud (eternal night followed by dawns repose then back in action).

 

My major complaint is ally targeting with the scepter.  The UI in this game just doesn't support it.  Someone earlier said the tether  mechanic should be on Siphon and I agree.  In fact, get rid of ally targeting on the scepter all together.  When you Siphon an ally your scepter skills should change to do less damage and barrier/buff your tether.  This would work until siphon comes off cool down.  Shroud skills could work the same way.  Using siphon on an ally gets you more supportive skills but the default shroud skills would do more damage.  And no, you don't have to give all the other weapons the same treatment.

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Honestly really disappointed with the specter. I was already iffy on the idea of a spellcasting thief, but I decided to go with an open mind when trying it out.

 

The main issue is that it doesn't feel like a thief. It feels like necro got bolted down onto a thief. Cast times and cooldowns and overall it feels very clunky and slow. It doesn't feel like a thief-flavored support caster, it feels like purple necro. The character doesn't feel nimble, the animations don't feel nimble, and the skills overall feel slow and clunky and basically everything I try to run away from when I pick thief to play.

On top of that, the skills are all so convoluted! There are so many conditionals and clauses to it, it's hard to wrap my head around many of them. One of them (I think one of the dual skills) had a tooltip so big it didn't fit my 1080p monitor! Please streamline them.

I think a support, magic-y thief can be done. The shadow shroud ally tethering was actually much more intuitive than I expected. But I think a lot of work needs to be done to make the profession actually feel like an extension of thief, and not like you ran out of ideas so you bolted a scourge on my back and painted it purple.

Also for the love of god, give the auto attack a new animation. Whacking the air to throw tennis balls looks so bad. Give it some flourish, some flair, make the thief do some spins or something. Casting magic doesn't have to be like I'm hurling a rock at my opponent or playing whack-a-mole.

Edited by BrunoBRS.5178
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15 minutes ago, BrunoBRS.5178 said:

*everything from the post above*

To give my post more concrete suggestions instead of broad "feel" feedback:

 

  • The spec in general is lacking thief flavor. It feels excessively like necro in both speed and all the cooldowns. I'd like to see the scepter and shroud skills sped up and give them more interesting animations to make them feel like a thief is casting them. Even if I'm playing a support caster, I want to feel like a thief when I play thief.
  • The auto attack feels really bad mostly because it's such a bad animation and such a boring flavor. It might as well just be a single attack with how linear the timing of the attacks are. I'd like to see it have some flavor to how it animates, change the timing on the second and third attacks to make them feel distinct, etc.
  • Shadowstep wells are cool. Cast time on shadowsteps feels odd. Maybe it could shadowstep instantly and only cast the well after? And to make the thief less vulnerable, it could have an initial pulse on shadowstep, but the well is only cast if you wait the full cast time.
  • Ally targeting doesn't feel particularly good, but the tether felt fine for me. On top of that, a lot of skills felt extremely convoluted and hard to parse because the tooltips were so massive. So maybe instead of targeting allies, the thief automatically applies the effects to the bound ally as the thief casts their stuff? Would streamline the profession's clunkiness a lot, though it would require some number changes to justify it.
Edited by BrunoBRS.5178
formatting, highlighting key sentences
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25 minutes ago, DragonSlayer.1087 said:

I agree. This spec is very limiting when it comes to core weapons. Less initiative, which kinda makes you need Trickery (like with every thief build since launch.) 

You get one Shadowstep with SB pretty much. 

Would be nice if one the grandmaster traits give you initiative everytime you reach a stack of condition. Like 1 per 5s of bleed, 1 per 3s of poison, 1 per 3 stack of torment etc. 

The reduced initiative pool is made to prevent us from build DPS out of this Elite Spec. They knew that we're going to do that -- I would.

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